This game is awful

[DM_Melkhar]

Honestly, this game sucks storywise. I'm not exactly sure what's going on. However, the gameplay is probably one of the best. The turn-based system was getting old. Not to mention that the license grid system was pretty fun to complete. What's even better is that you have SO MANY secret bosses and dungeons. Overall, it's a decent game.

I had heard that the main plotline is ridiculously short. I'm at the Tomb of Raithwall at the moment.

Regardless, I'm having an awful lot of fun on this game. Compared to X and X-2, Square have certainly redeemed themselves in my opinion.

FFX wasn't a bad game. The story was one of the best, Tidus's voice just killed too many scenes. The gameplay was ok, it wasn't great though. X-2 was just sad.

I'm not saying X was a bad game, and I agree that the storyline was very good. It was the gameplay that let it down for me. I liked Tidus, but his voice did get irritating after a while - and I found him to be rather selfish "This is MY story!" Yeah right, anyone else involved in the entire game? Yuna? Yes, she's technically the saviour of Spira and he tries to take all the glory.

I just think that XII has redeemed what failed X.

[Hazzard]

Honestly, this game sucks storywise. I'm not exactly sure what's going on. However, the gameplay is probably one of the best. The turn-based system was getting old. Not to mention that the license grid system was pretty fun to complete. What's even better is that you have SO MANY secret bosses and dungeons. Overall, it's a decent game.

I had heard that the main plotline is ridiculously short. I'm at the Tomb of Raithwall at the moment.

Regardless, I'm having an awful lot of fun on this game. Compared to X and X-2, Square have certainly redeemed themselves in my opinion.

FFX wasn't a bad game. The story was one of the best, Tidus's voice just killed too many scenes. The gameplay was ok, it wasn't great though. X-2 was just sad.

I'm not saying X was a bad game, and I agree that the storyline was very good. It was the gameplay that let it down for me. I liked Tidus, but his voice did get irritating after a while - and I found him to be rather selfish "This is MY story!" Yeah right, anyone else involved in the entire game? Yuna? Yes, she's technically the saviour of Spira and he tries to take all the glory.

I just think that XII has redeemed what failed X.

When Tidus says 'this is MY story', here's talking in referral to his own personal story, and is not being selfish. Just stating his emotions.
Plus every single one of them clearly have a story which their looking to fulfill.

Plus i don't really like the gameplay either, but the story was great and i thoroughly enjoyed the game, and the last battle music!!

FF12 is good! ( had to say that cause i was focusing on FF10 more)

[Renmiri]

Dont worry shadow, i completely agree with you. I stumbled upon this website this morning, and i had to register just to say that i did not like FFXII.

-No story
-No main charactor
-Vaan/Penello are annoying

I will give it props because of the battle system, and lisence grid. These two things, if used properly, could have made an excellent game! i just hope the same thing doesnt happen with FFXIII...

I agree with you.
I still like FFXII, gameplay is tons of fun, in spite of the bland music, story and characters. But when I think "what could have been" it pi$$es me off because music, storytelling and in depth characters are what SE mastered on.

People should be allowed to politely say what they like and dislike about a game. Me and you included.

[Wolf Kanno]

EDIT: God damn it, Wolf Kanno. Just smurfing post it. I want an argument going on in here - one that is heated and emotionally driven! I can't play devil's advocate forever as I am too detached from either side to really care.

Ok, since Nominus asked nicely (you can put the gun away now...) I'll post about this debate. Now, I pretty much agree completely with Angel_from_Hell about this topic and thread, especially since there is like 12 other threads just like this. (FFXII haters, either leave us alone or at least post in one of the old threads. Stop making new ones )

As for the debate about the story and characters. I'm really not in the mood to discuss it cause I've done this debate like 7 times now but here I go again...:rolleyes2

WARNING MAJOR SPOILERS!!!!
(Also, this is my personal opinion and perception of the story and cast. You are free to believe whatever you want )

The story, to me, is rather simple but I enjoyed it. I love political stories (a veteran of FFT and Suikoden I-V respectively). It's story is good but it doesn't have the political backstabbing I love so much. It's there it's just not "earth shattering" to the plot. The aspect of the story I really love is how the theme of "Freedom" and how it relates to everything. Dalmasca's struggle to regain it's own sovereignty and eventually(SPOILER) mankind's struggle to gain freedom from the Occurians I aslo enjoyed (SPOILER)the party retracing the steps of the Dynast-King and how "history repeating" itself plays in it overall.

It's easy to just say that FFXII's plot is just another "resistance versus evil empire/corporation/religious organization" but you miss out on the unique aspects of this journey. I don't mind similiar ideas and stories being repeated, as long as it tries to bring something new to it. It's not like all the FF plots are original (FFVIII being the last original story in the series, and FFV being the last before that.) I think XII does a good job cause it explores more grey area than the previous installments.

The Empire isn't evil, the resistance isn't necessarily good. (SPOILER)I mean the Empire conquers Nalbida and Dalmasca so they can retrieve the secrets of the nethicite in hopes of using this knowledge to break free from the Occurians. The resistance is willing to join the Rozzarian Empire and start Ivalice's equivalent to a "World War" in order to regain the independance of a small insignifact country. A war that would have devastated that same country and kill countless innocent lives.

The story is simple but morally complex. The characters share this complexity within simplicity approach as well.

Vaan, is simply the "angry youth" who is rather naive about how the world really works. (SPOILER)He's an idealist, who hates the empire and Basch for killing his only family; as well as subjagating and humiliating his homeland. Since he only grew up in a stifiling authoratative dictorship. Vaan of course dreams of being a "Sky Pirate" the last visage of freedom his world knows. It is only after he is caught with Balthier and learns the truth about Basch that he begins to see that the world doesn't live up to his perception of it. Being young, he quickly adapt but hangs onto some of his original "world view". It's not until after his extended time with Larsa that he begins to finally stop hating the empire. This of course brings me to Penelo.

(SPOILER)Her relationship with Larsa, the symbolic last visage of good in Archades' aristocracy and the hope of a peaceful future, changes her perception of the empire. If Larsa is a noble and yet sympathetic and caring, then can Archades truly be the evil empire she was raised to believe it is? As the story goes, she quickly becomes the Imperial sympathizer who only wishes for peace, between all the kingdoms. She doesn't want Lady Ashe to destroy Archades, but she also wants to save her homeland. One scene in particular, defines why Vaan and Penelo are really there. Basch and Lady Ashe have a discussion about vengeance against the empire and Basch alludes to the growing relationship between Vaan, Penelo, and Larsa, and how we don't need animosity. These children are the hope of a peaceful future.

Basch, is pretty damn complex either way you look at him. (SPOILER)A disgraced knight who failed to protect his kingdom, as well as being set up as the traitor who led to it's downfall. But Basch isn't angsty nor doesn he swear vengeance against those who took everything away from him; his only concern when he becomes free is to find the resistance and restore Dalmasca. He's a man who has lost much in his life, his homeland, his brother, and everything he cared about; all this before he even became a knight of Dalmasca. I feel it's due to his previous lost that Basch has learned what is truly important. Even though the resistance, his kingdom, and even Lady Ashe distrust him, he presses on. Why? Because all that matters is that he fights for himself. He fights for what he believes in and what matters most to him. His maturity and integrity is what truly makes him such a great character.

Fran, represents the resistance against the natural order. The irony is that being a Viera, she is naturally attuned to the world and feels the effects of the Humes going against the natural course.(SPOILER) Her society is one of isolation and detachment. The Viera don't necessarily "live" in the world as much as they just exist within it. They don't participate with the events around them and instead stay in their own communities which can best be described as an "elvish convent". Fran represents an interesting sub-story that's mentioned mostly by talking to NPC's in the cities. The rise of Viera leaving the "Woods" to live in Hume society. Fran see's that their is more to the world and wishes to be free. She pays the ultimate price. She sacrifices her home and family in exchange for her personal freedom. To learn and to live. I feel it's this common circumstance that leads her to join with Balthier. Their pasts are very similiar.

Balthier is probably the other complex character in this story. His personality and actions are completely contradictory. He's a self proclaimed "gentleman thief" but he's associated with many low lifes and he's not afraid to do some unsavory things to get what he wants. (SPOILER)He searches for great treasure and plunder, but his past shows that he was pretty well off. He once held to the idea of order and justice and now he is a renowned pirate who treasures his personal chaotic freedom more than anything. He says he hates his father but is driven to understand him. He strongly dislikes his homelands superficial society but there is a hint that he still loves his homeland despite it's flaws. He tries to come off as selfish and scheming but rather he is the first to sacrifice himself for others. Balthier is truly his own person. He embodies the freedom that many people like Vaan desire. I mean, what's not to love?

Lady Ashe's personal story is at the heart of this games story. She truly embodies the "human element" of the story. Her struggle between her personal desire and her duty as a figurehead was rather well executed. (SPOILER)She fights to restore her kingdom for the sake of her people but she wrestles constantly with the side of her that wants to take revenge against the empire that killed her husband and destroyed her kingdom. In most RPGs, when the hero gains an item of immence power from the villains, they usually do the "righteous" thing and try to destroy it or hide it right away. Lady Ashe instead decides she wants to use it against her enemies. Her struggle to "do the right thing" is what makes her appealing. The journey is what shapes her ultimate decision. From retracing the steps of the Dynast-King and to see his own conflict which the history books left out. The haunting memory of her husband who supports her need for revenge. Watching Vaan and Penelo learn about the world and their small steps towards overcoming the history of bad blood between Dalmasca and Archades. Even Basch, who has just as much reason to get revenge and yet he has no animosity.He does what's important to him and the ones he loves. Balthier and Fran both show her the danger of the nethicite and each of their stories tell the consequences of using such power without restraint. It's all filled with ambiguity which I savor more than anything. Her journey, is more of a personal journey into the darkness that exist within us all.

I gave some arguments about it's story and characters. It's the conclusions I came to as I played through the game. But this is why I truly love the cast and story of FFXII.

[Lynx]

wolf kanno i couldnt have put it any better myself that was perfect description of the characters and story made me realize things i dindt pick up on brought me tears of joy haha.

[Renmiri]

I agree with Wolf Kano's take on the characters but the storytelling is bloody awful and much of what WK noticed is mere conjecture because the dialogues and scenes contradict each other.

For example, let's take Basch, which was the only story that was ALMOST well told. We never find out what drives him until his last scene (SPOILER)when he and Noah fight "to the death" and he says he protected "someone important and protect her I have" and after that he abandons the very thing that drove him, making no effort to attain it ? WTF ?!?!

Another example ? Ashe. She seems such a good character but every time I try to like her she does something lame. Like when Vaan tells Ashe "Who says anything about being strong, you have your friends" at a crucial moment yet (SPOILER)the first thing Ashe does after her problems are resolved is ditch said friends. She just stays "Princess" and nothing changed after all they went through ? Lame! She just never rises to her potential.

Vaan grows up ? Yet all he does is be a pirate like he said he would be on scene 1 chapter 1. How grown up is that ? Disappointing.

Penelo ? Don't even know what she is doing there TBH. She starts as the responsible more mature counterpoint to Vaan and ends as... just another kid.

Larsa is the only likable character that is deep and well written for, and even him sounds too goody goody to be true, (But that didn't stop me from liking Yuna so I'll shut up )

All in all, we see sketches of good characters and good plots that get dropped and go nowhere. The ideas were good, but execution faltered IMHO.

PS: Vayne was almost good but (SPOILER)his speeches and theatrics at the end are completely out of synch with his silence until him killing his father. Had he been that garrulous since the beginning, or silent the whole game I might have liked the character as a villain. The way it was ? Something just didn't jive for me making his character not believable.

Dr. Cid was way over the top for me. But maybe it was just a bad voice actor, the dialog wasn't that bad, so I don't know for sure.

I guess the only two characters I found little flaw with where Balthier and Fran but, alas, Balthier annoys me to no end so I can't like the character. I have to admit it is taste not bad writing though

[Roto13]

Wolf Kanno is a better character analyst than you are.

[Ashley Schovitz]

i AGREE THAT i'M DISSAPOINTED IN THE STORYLINE, BUT THAT DOESN'T MAKE THE ENTIE GAME CRAP. IT'S STILL A FUN CHALLENGE, IF TOO LONG. oOPS LEFT CAPS ON DON'T FEEL iLIK eDITING.

[Gabranth]

drunk?

[Setzer Gabianni]

Dont worry shadow, i completely agree with you. I stumbled upon this website this morning, and i had to register just to say that i did not like FFXII.

-No story
-No main charactor
-Vaan/Penello are annoying

I will give it props because of the battle system, and lisence grid. These two things, if used properly, could have made an excellent game! i just hope the same thing doesnt happen with FFXIII...

Coming from someone who places X before VI..

Of course there's a story. You just obviously didn't understand it.

There are main characters, pretty much everyone in the team is a main character as such. Just because you weren't stuck with one generic Hero, doesn't mean this was a flaw in the game. It gave people more freedom to do what they wanted.

Wolf Kanno owned you Renmiri. You couldn't make a better comeback.

You also stepped over the line wit this comment.

Dr. Cid was way over the top for me. But maybe it was just a bad voice actor, the dialog wasn't that bad, so I don't know for sure.

Our relationship is over. ;_;

[Wolf Kanno]

I agree with Wolf Kano's take on the characters but the storytelling is bloody awful and much of what WK noticed is mere conjecture because the dialogues and scenes contradict each other.

I don't believe the dialogue and scenes really contradict each other but I will agree with you that my description is based on my personal observations of the cast and story I'll try my best to give you some satisfying answers but I make no promises.

For example, let's take Basch, which was the only story that was ALMOST well told. We never find out what drives him until his last scene (SPOILER)when he and Noah fight "to the death" and he says he protected "someone important and protect her I have" and after that he abandons the very thing that drove him, making no effort to attain it ? WTF ?!?!

(SPOILER)First Basch did help restore Dalmasca, which is what he really wanted to do. So I would say he attained his original goal (your comment almost makes me believe you think he had a "thing" for Lady Ashe )Secondly, he did come to terms with his brother during the end of the game. He made a promise to him, I don't think Basch ever really hated his brother so it's not too far fetched to believe he would fulfill his dying wish. Thirdly, Dalmasca still remembers Basch as the "traitor" who plunged their homeland into Imperial rule. I don't think even Lady Ashe could have swayed them any differently. Basically, Basch didn't have any home to return to, Noah's dying wish was his best offer.

Another example ? Ashe. She seems such a good character but every time I try to like her she does something lame. Like when Vaan tells Ashe "Who says anything about being strong, you have your friends" at a crucial moment yet (SPOILER)the first thing Ashe does after her problems are resolved is ditch said friends. She just stays "Princess" and nothing changed after all they went through ? Lame! She just never rises to her potential.

(SPOILER)Lady Ashe is part of the royal family and unlike "other fantasy royalty" FFXII's is steeped with realism. She can't exactly be seen associating with "commoners" let alone four Sky Pirates and an infamous traitor to the throne. Besides, no one will ever know the truth about the role her and the others played in the conflict until the Marquis' book gets published for public use. Historically royalty wasn't all "my way or the high way" they themselves are trapped within their own social chains. She's a figurehead and a leader before she is a human being. It's just how she was raised and it's what's expected of her.

Vaan grows up ? Yet all he does is be a pirate like he said he would be on scene 1 chapter 1. How grown up is that ? Disappointing.

Vaan matures based upon his view of the world, he starts off hating the empire without ever stopping to understand their view. By the end, he comes around and understands that the empire isn't completely evil. There are good people from the empire like Larsa (SPOILER)and Balthier. I don't necessarily believe Vaan "grows up" but rather matures as the story moves along. He's a child in the beginning of the story and at the end he's still a child but slightly more wise about the world. It's unrealistic to believe that a character can have an "epiphany" and suddenly reach a level of maturity on par with an adult. It's gradual, and Vaan will probably continue to grow and mature as time goes by (most likely in Revnant Wings). I find this realism in his character growth to be one of the more appealing aspects of the story telling.

Penelo ? Don't even know what she is doing there TBH. She starts as the responsible more mature counterpoint to Vaan and ends as... just another kid.

Penelo is mostly their for symbolism as the "hope of the future". Her personal reasons are most likely to keep an eye on Vaan. That and I hardly believe she is so responsible that she was going to let Vaan have all the fun She's young as well you know.

Larsa is the only likable character that is deep and well written for, and even him sounds too goody goody to be true, (But that didn't stop me from liking Yuna so I'll shut up )

He's a little too goody goody for me as well sometimes. I honestly kept waiting for him to kill Vayne and reveal he's the mastermind behind everything

PS: Vayne was almost good but (SPOILER)his speeches and theatrics at the end are completely out of synch with his silence until him killing his father. Had he been that garrulous since the beginning, or silent the whole game I might have liked the character as a villain. The way it was ? Something just didn't jive for me making his character not believable.

(SPOILER)The game pretty much tells you that Vayne is not being his usual self, besides I don't exactly feel his "speech" at Rababnastre is the work of a "silent" antagonist But it explains why the Senate was all up in arms about him. Hell, listening to his past and how he killed his older brothers to become the next successor gave me the impression that he's a little more than the conniving schemer we are led to believe. I mean his assassination of his father could have been done more cleanly and he also would have found another, less "flamboyant" way of gaining the nethicite instead of taking over two countries. He's intelligent but also arrogant.

Deep down, I think it all comes down to how we choose to see the story. I strongly believe that FFXII is game that gives as much as you are willing to put into it. Also, thanks for the support people! I hope my posts have been at least somewhat insightful.

[Markus. D]

You know what I LOVED about XII ?

Havint to beat the Espers / Summons to achieve them. Felt a lot more rewarding than those cloister of trials at FFX.

It gave me a sense of achievement that I kicked Zalera's butt, every time he pwned a fiend. Like "weak fiends die, but I won"

Yeah but they are too easy to beat. I owned all the ones I faced so far and I'm about to go fight Chaos.

don't overlevel. simple.

[TyphoonThaReapa]

You know what I LOVED about XII ?

Havint to beat the Espers / Summons to achieve them. Felt a lot more rewarding than those cloister of trials at FFX.

It gave me a sense of achievement that I kicked Zalera's butt, every time he pwned a fiend. Like "weak fiends die, but I won"

Yeah but they are too easy to beat. I owned all the ones I faced so far and I'm about to go fight Chaos.

don't overlevel. simple.

A'yo, I agree. These 'Esper' are TOO easy. I've had this game for over half a year now and it's so bad I decided NOT to end it and all I have to do is beat the Bahumat. And get this, I've only played one record. I've got Every esper, finished all but one hunt all in the first time I played. The battles are fun but the story suck and it's too easy. A new low.

[Renmiri]

I don't believe the dialogue and scenes really contradict each other but I will agree with you that my description is based on my personal observations of the cast and story I'll try my best to give you some satisfying answers but I make no promises.

Aye, you did. You should have written it, not the lame guys who did it

Vayne(SPOILER)The game pretty much tells you that Vayne is not being his usual self, besides I don't exactly feel his "speech" at Rababnastre is the work of a "silent" antagonist But it explains why the Senate was all up in arms about him. Hell, listening to his past and how he killed his older brothers to become the next successor gave me the impression that he's a little more than the conniving schemer we are led to believe. I mean his assassination of his father could have been done more cleanly and he also would have found another, less "flamboyant" way of gaining the nethicite instead of taking over two countries. He's intelligent but also arrogant.

Deep down, I think it all comes down to how we choose to see the story. I strongly believe that FFXII is game that gives as much as you are willing to put into it. Also, thanks for the support people! I hope my posts have been at least somewhat insightful.

Interesting take about Vayne... I don't agree in this one, alas! He is very inconsistent IMHO, at first he invites Miguelo to drink with him and makes Imperial Guards be nice to the people in Rabanastre, then (SPOILER) he is telling his cruisers to fire above the city regardelss of the innocent lives it will kill. It's like someone with Multiple Personality Disorder... :rolleyes2

Yes, it was very insightful and made me appreciate the game a bit more. I don't dislike the plot archs and ideas but I still think execution was dismal!!! Like you said, it takes effort - tons of love for the game - to "read" the story as it should have been told.

You seen to write good and enjoy FFXII. Want to take my FFXII writing challenge ?
http://forums.eyesonff.com/showthread.php?t=102288

[DK]

ES: In that case, Vaan is just the worst character in the series period. :}