Not Much of a Final Fantasy.....

[Setzer Gabianni]

So you actually liked the storytelling in FF1-3 and FF5? Not to mention the endless camp and absurd plot twists in FF4 (aha! There's one more crystal!!! NOOOO KAIN, NOT ANOTHER BETRAYAL)?

No but they matched the games of their time. XII doesn't even match past games (VII, IX, X).

You can think that if you want to Renmiri.

[Markus. D]

Its definetly up there with the newer games. and far exceeds the older ones (pre-VI)

[Bolivar]

It made me feel food.

whaaaat? just playin, i know what you meant.

I love how everyone (this isn't a response to your post) is coming in here thinking i'm this revitalist who hates everything new about FF and XII, and that i'm trying to convince everyone that it's the worst game of all time!

Stop trying to devolve the conversation into something else.

For the 1000th time, I enjoyed this game. it was alright. However, I think the game serves as an example to question the path that Square is headed and where they're taking it. Rather than making a new Final Fantasy it feels more like they made a KOTOR rip-off, and threw in moogles, crystals, the prelude, espers, and tried to see if anyone would notice.

That or they made the world of Tactics Advanced into a big 3d world. Eh, who knows.

[Dynast-Kid]

For the 1000th time, I enjoyed this game. it was alright. However, I think the game serves as an example to question the path that Square is headed and where they're taking it. Rather than making a new Final Fantasy it feels more like they made a KOTOR rip-off, and threw in moogles, crystals, the prelude, espers, and tried to see if anyone would notice.

I think it's been stated that this Final Fantasy isn't a pre-cursor to where the series is head, but an installment where Squeenix dabbled in new themes and taking a risk. And maybe it's just that you're comparing FFXII to a game with a similair atmosphere and gameplay.

And considering that this is a Final Fantasy game, moogles, crystals, the prelude, espers, and all of the other FF references weren't put in to "see if anyone would notice", but to truly make it a Final Fantasy game.

[Neo-Omega Mk XXV]

No but they matched the games of their time. XII doesn't even match past games (VII, IX, X).

Not really. FF3's plot is worse than FF2's, and FF5's is IMO worse than FF4's (4 generic heroes are destined to save the world from a generic villain generically sealed away for many years by generic elemental crystals...). I'll concede that 7 and 10 had overall better plots than 12 (at least the execution was better), but 9? Uggghh. Don't get me started on this mess. Its pacing is at least as bad as FF12's.

[Ashley Schovitz]

No but they matched the games of their time. XII doesn't even match past games (VII, IX, X).

Not really. FF3's plot is worse than FF2's, and FF5's is IMO worse than FF4's (4 generic heroes are destined to save the world from a generic villain generically sealed away for many years by generic elemental crystals...). I'll concede that 7 and 10 had overall better plots than 12 (at least the execution was better), but 9? Uggghh. Don't get me started on this mess. Its pacing is at least as bad as FF12's.

Aww naw explain why iX's is bad?

[Wolf Kanno]

I love it when people hold Final Fantasy up on this high-and-mighty platform like Square has done no wrong in the past and has somehow now fallen from glory.

I think it's a good game, but that's really irrelevant to my point: it's a Final Fantasy because they say it is, and they stuck a number on it. So's Crystal Chronices, so's XI. Just because a game doesn't happen to have a Cid or moogles or chocobos or a very specific type of plot, it's still an entry in the series, and that's all there is to it. If they decided to make FFXIV like Contra, it would still be a Final Fantasy game. The only exceptions, in my opinion, are due to weird localization or something like that, which doesn't really happen anymore: for example, Final Fantasy Adventure is a Seiken Densetsu game, not a FF game.

Thank god, someone understands this concept about FF and where it stands in RPGs...

Also this is not directed towards anyone but is just me ranting... Feel free to ignore

Since when has FF had some high standard for good storytelling? The series has always been about innovation but story wise the series as a whole is weak. FFVII and FFX are examples of good storytelling? Hell no. VII has horribly obvious plotholes (the fact that SE is using the FFVII expansions like Last Order to fix them, proves it.) and FFX is just...no it's just bad. It tries so hard to be deep and melacholic but it's horribly predicatable and it's cast has to be the worst to appear in the series yet... don't get me started on the "Tidus plot twist"... I just cannot bring myself to like this interactive movie that's a tech demo to show off what the PS2 can do...

The series has always been about pushing what an RPG can be. FFIV brought about the emphasis in story and character. FFVI brought about a more epic movie quality to it with more dramatic music and movie style story sequences. FFVII brought it into 3D and showed the power of emotional impact through the advent of cutscenes. FFVIII tried to rebuild the concept of RPG, though most feel it failed, I appreciate the effort. FFX introduced voice work to add more to cutscenes. FFXI brought the series into the MMO genre. FFXII has brough forth a new level of world design that is unprecedented in JRPGs up until this time. Hell some MMO's wish they had the level of detail in their worlds that FFXII has.

To me the only defining theme in the FF series is innovation nothing more. Not "good" music, not "good" storytelling, not the "good" characters, not the "good" gameplay, not the "good" world design, not even chocobos, moogles, and Uncle Cid. Why? Cause the quality in all of these fields vary throughout the series. Even when the game is bad it's still considered an FF (look at FFX-2 and Mystic Quest). It's only a standard if it stays consistant and it doesn't I'm afraid. But innovation is cosistant even after the original team has left, the series continues to innovate and change our way of seeing RPGs. If one considers the FF series to be the pinnacle of "good" in the RPG genre then you must not play many RPGs outside the series or you are obviously an obsessed fanboy (or fangirl).

I don't mind people sharing there opinions (I just did and I'm probably going to get flamed for it ) but coming up with your own warped version of what makes a game part of the series is just stupid.

I generally like Tim Burton movies, but I don't like Planet of the Apes, it didn't even feel like a Tim Burton movie to me. Does that mean I can say it's not a Tim Burton movie? No, cause it is. I just have to accept it and go watch Nightmare Before Christmas or Big Fish and just forget that it exists. (I was doing good too, until I thought up this stupid allegory ).

I think I'm finished with my rant. Also, let's try not to devolve this into a "Which is the best in the series" thread. We all like and dislike different games in the series. That there should prove my point about the inconsistancies of the quality of the games; cause none of us can agree on what is a "good" FF game. :rolleyes2

[GF_Diablos]

Ummm...did you pay attention to anything I said??? We're not critiquing this game, it just doesn't hold up very well as a Final Fantasy, not just in similarities, but as a series that sets a high standard for RPG's.

If you had even taken the time to read the title you might not have written such an emotionally charged post.

Also, I explicitly stated in my post, that I, too enjoyed this game for what it is. Because I damn sure couldn't enjoy it as a Final Fantasy.

I did read your points and the post title, but you misunderstood the point I was making, I am happy for people to voice their opinions but;
1) There are already a whole bunch of threads on this, add it to one of those.
2) You obviously attributing a different set of judgement techniques to Final Fantasy games in relation to other games, why? This is my main issue. You said they game was enjoyable but not a Final Fantasy but I just don't think it's right to attack it for being part of a successful series.
3) You also misunderstood the tone of my post, I don't write emotionally charged posts because forums are not a place to base strong opinion since it's so difficult to display your actual emotion, I was think more of a bored emotion than angry, I too think the game has flaws as I said but all games do. If developers didn't take chances on varying game play mechanics Final Fantasy would never be around in the first place.

I notice some other people have also posted on the matter of holding FF as a different rank of game somehow, I'm glad others agree. You either like a game or not, whether or not it has 'copied' something is irrelevant as I have already stated.
Star Wars copied lots of other things to become what it was. While I see the similarities you pointed out I also see similarities to Hamlet and some Marvel Universe Thor. Lucas himself has cited several references which if you compare them to FFXII as well also shine through.

As for the pedestal of Final Fantasy that some of you seem to hold I again agree with some of the above posts, some of the earlier stories were much worse substance wise and incredibley slow paced, Neo-Omega Mk XXV raises the issue correctly. I'm convinced sometime that not everyone who claims to have played some of the older games has, they are not perfect, just good. Since the UK is often screwed over with game releases I can't comment on the initial impact of the job system but I am sure there were a whole bunch of sceptics saying it spoilt the game and was too complex.

I am not attacking peoples opinions, I just want level judgement for the newer FF games because every time one comes out it's the "worst so far" and it's getting boring. As I said in my first post, if you don't enjoy the game stop playing it or don't buy it. Replay an older one you enjoy and maybe look to other series' for something new.

[Urgent Picnic]

and Penelo is R2-D2.

I went through the trouble of registering to this forum just so I could say:

:laugh:
:laugh:
:laugh:

Brilliant! That's far better insight than my explanation. I figured she was there just so Luke (Vaan) could have a chick too since the Star Wars metaphor dictates that Leia (Ashe) will end up with Han (Balthier).

[psyniac_123]

But it's not a Final Fantasy.

Just a few things:
Final Fantasy Adventure.
Final Fantasy Legend.
FINAL FANTASY TACTICS.

Just because it has Final Fantasy in the title (and yes, I know, it was numbered also) doesn't mean it can't be different. At first, I was uneasy about so many changes but the story was fairly fantastic, if plotpoints were few and fair between and (and I'm not saying it's the best FF ever) the GAMEPLAY. OH, THE GAMEPLAY.
Excuse me one moment;

FAN-F%&KING-TASTIC.

Best FF gameplay EVER.

Anyway, that's my two cents, and sorry for causing any anguish

[xtrava]

Final Fantasy The Spirits Within (Not a game but meh)...Thats NOTHING to do with Final Fantasy, and Square got away with using its title...So I guess they can do what they want

[Jerseymilk]

Well I personally agree with a lot of what Wolf Kanno, Omega, and GF Diablos have said. The one really amusing thing I've noticed with FF fans is that they always complain about the latest game out and say it's the worst one and that SE is "losing their touch". Well they sure have been "losing that touch" for a long time now! I remember not too long ago when all people did was slam FFX, now suddenly, the game is fantastic and is a "masterpiece" when compared to FFXII. Omega is right when he points out that it's getting "old". I saw it happen when FFVIII came out. It was crap and FFVII was sooooo much better! Then FFVIII was so much better than FFIX when that came out. Then FFX was the worst and most crappy game.:rolleyes2

I like all the games personally for what they are. Seperate entities with certain familiar aspects to them that make them part of the FF universe. Depending what mood I'm in, I'll play a particular one. If I want the "old school" feeling of what made me fall in love with the franchise in the first place, I'll play FFIV. If I'm in the mood for a game that has a cast of characters I'm really fond of, I'll pop in FFVIII. If I want a game where I get to watch lots of beautiful cutscenes then it'll be FFX. Finally if I want a game that has very diverse geography to explore and fun sidequests, then I'll play FFXII. To me it's the varying differences from one FF game to the next that I think are one of the most enjoyable things. So I don't look on it in negative way, but rather a positive one. But then I suppose that's just my opinion.

[Wuggly Blight]

There still is alot of hate over X (most gave up due to the flames), I loathe it myself with a passion of the sun.

[Xyex]

First, let me say that while I will be quoting the first post these replies aren't directed at the poster, per se. This is for the general audience, if you will. He just happened to bring up things I've seen a lot of.

Is it just me, or does the Archades/judge theme sound like a rip off of the Empire's theme in Star Wars? This brings me to my next point.

Sure, it sounds similar. But so what? It's a badass theme.

It completely makes no sense, but this game is too much like Star Wars. I remember when I first played the demo that came with Dragon Quest VIII, I thought the game looked like a mix between FFT and Star Wars. I didn't know I was going to be right.

An empire against a rebellion. Large starcruisers with smaller ships having their dog fights. They wanted to be so cool that they made not 1, not 2, but 5 DARTH VADERS!!! (judges). Ashe is princess Leia, Balthier is Han Solo, Fran is a sexy Chewbacca (she's the non-human co-pilot!!!!), The Strahl is the Milennium Falcon, Vaan is Luke Skywalker (poor kid that just wants to fly), Basch is Vaan's Obie Wan Kinobe (except he fought with his brother instead of his father) and Penelo is R2-D2. Anastis is Yoda, the Bahamut is the Death Star, you get the idea.

Can you say "Reading too much into it"? Yes? Good. Star Wars was far from the first to do... well, anything it did. Evil Empire? Old. Rebellions? Old. Princesses? Old. Sauve not-quite-a-hero? Old. Hero related to villain? Old. Knowledgable master teaches hero what he knows? Old. Star Wars is a fairy tale given a Sci-fi locale. You can draw connections between any two things if you really want to. And in a lot of cases, it's not that hard. Of course that's not to say that a lot of the connections in XII weren't intentional. FF has *always* made conections with Star Wars, starting with Biggs and Wedge. FFVIII is CRAMMED with them.

Oh, and by the way.... Where the F*** is the storyline? In the beginning they bombard you with a load of movies and Omdore talking, but soon after that you're plunged into the hours of senseless dungeon wandering. Without even getting a Game Over, it takes a long time to make it through the mazes that are the dungeons in this game. If you want to go mark-hunting, one of the biggest aspects of this game, you might as well kiss any hope of a decent story goodbye. Halfway through the game, I asked myself "Where am I? What am I doing? Why am I doing this? Where am I headed? Why am I here? What is the point of this game?"

So now we're complaining about being able to do a lot of things? Gee, I can remember when everyone was complaining that FFX was too linear and didn't offer enough sidequests and non-storyline elements during the course of the game... and now XII is getting complaints for doing the opposite? Oi.

I've also seen a lot of complaints about the high gameplay over cutscene ratio in XII. I never thought I'd see people complain that there was too much gameplay and not enough story (in a videogame no less!) after all the complaints about FFX being an 'interactive movie'.

The only area that I think was made too big was the Sandsea. If they'd limited it to just the one area instead of two it would have been perfect sized. But that's it, just the one area that's too large. (The Pharos can seem big if you don't know what you're doing but it's not really that bad).

Like I said, the ratio of time you spend mindlessly wandering to the amount of time you spend advancing a story is not good. What else? Well the mini-map is rediculous, although it was necessary for the labyrinthical dungeons.. With a mini-map, we might as well go back to 2D gaming. The music was not up to par, the License system was a poor re-hash of the Sphere Grid (by the time you get everything, everyone can do everything), none of the traditional summons are there, no crystals, no theme of life & death, no 1,000 year legend, no threat to the planet, the higher power controlling the dark warriors (vanaar) had no clear motives, Cid was just some douchebag, i'd hardly call the strahl an "airship", the list can go on and on.

First of all, what's wrong with the mini-map?

Anyway, it's no 'mindlessly wandering' it's called "playing". I know, it's a novel concept, playing a game. But that's what you do. Yes, the cutscenes are spread out further in this one than in previous, but guess what? It's in response the fact that people were complaining about how often they occured in previous games. Make up your minds, folks.

The license board was fun and a good. The complaint of 'everyone's the same' is utter garbage. They are only what you make them. If they're all the same that's your fault, not the game's.

No world saving plot? What? Removing the tyranical rule of evil gods doesn't count as saving the world? Stoping Vayne conquering Rozaria and then moving on to the rest of the world isn't saving the world? Sure, there was no ancient legends or prophecies or world threats or over-the-top 'OMGWTF' problems, but that's the tone of the game. XII is based on a more realistic footing than previous games.

Venat had no clear motives? His motives were the same as Vayne's, really. Free humanity from the rule of the other Ocuria. The reasoning wasn't entirely given, but it's not particularly needed. Cid (both of them!) was cool. And the Strahl is an airship because they say so. It could be powered by baloons and it'd still be an airship. XP

Anyway, I also want to touch on something else. People say the story is weak, but that's not true. It's just presented differently than the previous FF games have been. VII through to X-2 (the ones I've played all the way through so know more about) are all the same when it comes down to story-telling. The characters are the story. They are the driving force behing the entire plot, they make the story.

In FFXII it's different. Instead of focusing on the characters and making the plot secondary it focused on the plot and made the characters secondary. They were developed in a different fashion from previous games and the story was presented in a different fashion. This, mixed with the increased ammounts of gameplay between cutscenes (I played for nearly 20 hours, if not more, between leaving for and reaching Archades) makes the story seem thinner, but there's as much or more in it than previous games.

[Moon Rabbits]

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OH THEY CHANGE