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Thread: The reasons why FFVII gamers can choose to ignore The Compilation if they wish

  1. #76

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    so you're saying FF VII isn't suited for expansion, sure it's not an entire galaxy like SW & ST, but we as humans should know a lot can happen on one planet, and that's what the majority of fans want, is more of the world of FF VII and everything on it, but to give us more S-E has to make more, much to the disdain of those opposed, which is the minority, S-E isn't gonna give up on the FF VII world, just because a few people aren't happy with it, that loses proffit, so they're gonna cater to the fans that want more, the ones willing to pay for it, those that love the VII world enough not to disect it into it's smallest parts but accept it as a larger piece of entertainment, and from the numbers many of us are entertained...
    True, that is what Dirge of Cerberus is based on. And yeah, it's understandable; SE is supposed to make profits. But does that mean they have to ruin it for those of us who prefer Final Fantasy VII instead of Final Fantasy VII: Fan Adapted Retcon Edition? No. That's why it would be nice of them to make The Compilation an alternative, and they can do that too. They may decide to create an unedited (apart from the graphics and sounds ofc) remake of the original game. And since they haven't denied that being possible there is a chance they might just do it. And so I choose to stick with thah possibility for now.

    as for Barret, if you played through the Cosmo Canyon part, Barret talks around the fire of how he formed Avalanche there several years before Meteorfall and from the way he talks about it and the way Shin-Ra reports it ingame on the T.V.s and stuff Avalanche is a large orginization, but due to limited space on the CD-ROM format they couldn't animate in every member of Avalanche, heck why do you think towns seem empty except for the few ppl you can talk to in RPG's, the programers are not gonna animate streets full of people, it would seriousely slow the game down with some hella bad lag (yes it can happen in offline games, happened often in older games on carts) it's up to the player to assume the streets are full of people and the only ones the players see are the ones that can be interacted with, that's prolly why they didn't show more members of Avalanche than you needed to see, not to mention the members you do get to interact with are Barrets closest friends, it's implied throughout the Meteorfall chapter that Avalanche is a huge orginization...
    Wrong. Let me quote from the game:

    Barret - "Cosmo Canyon... this is where AVALANCHE was born... I promised my guys someday... when we saved the planet from the Shinra, that we'd all go to Cosmo Canyon and celebrate... Biggs... Wedge... Jessie... Now they're all gone... died for the planet."

    Speaks for itself, doesn't it?

  2. #77

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    note "This is where AVALANCHE was born" was used in past tense, when he says "I promised my guys someday... when we saved the planet from the Shinra, that we'd all go to Cosmo Canyon and celebrate... Biggs... Wedge... Jessie..." he was talking about the founding memberes returning to the birthplace of AVALANCHE to celebrate their victory, but he can't do that after they're dead so he laments them at the orginizations birthplace, later on in the conversation he says "Again.... Again.... AVALANCHE's born again!" meaning that he was not gonna give up on his orginization he started years earlier in that very spot, not just yet, not just because his closets friends were killed, but rather he used their deaths to fuel his new anger against Shin-Ra, making it more personal and less about AVALANCHE's mission to save the plannet, let the incidental members of AVALANCHE handle the planet, while the leader goes on a bloody crusade against Shin-Ra's leaders personaly...

  3. #78

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    Quote Originally Posted by Charcoal View Post
    Wrong. Let me quote from the game:

    Barret - "Cosmo Canyon... this is where AVALANCHE was born... I promised my guys someday... when we saved the planet from the Shinra, that we'd all go to Cosmo Canyon and celebrate... Biggs... Wedge... Jessie... Now they're all gone... died for the planet."

    Speaks for itself, doesn't it?
    And why this can be considered an evidence that Barret created Avalanche? He said "where Avalanche was born" not "where i created Avalanche". He said too, "when we saved the planet from the Shinra, that we'd all go to Cosmo Canyon and celebrate". Why he didn't said "return to Cosmo Canyon and celebrate"? Because Barret never lived(or visited) CC in his life. He just knew that CC was the place were the original Avalanche group was created, and he wanted to celebrate their victory there.
    Again, this is not a retcon.

  4. #79

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    Barret - "Cosmo Canyon... this is where AVALANCHE was born... I promised my guys someday... when we saved the planet from the Shinra, that we'd all go to Cosmo Canyon and celebrate... Biggs... Wedge... Jessie... Now they're all gone... died for the planet."
    In the original game this clearly hints that Barret created AVALANCHE and that he, Biggs, Wedge and Jessie were the main men behind it. There might very well have been minor AVALANCHE supporters along the way, not any of big importance though - like the ones in BC - because they were never presented or even mentioned. Like Deepground and SL this concept might be squeezed into the story if you really want them to, but that doesn't mean they're not retcon.

    The expanded AVALANCHE wasn't even mentioned in the original game and that would've been an important part of the storyline don't you think? Before Crisis has just been added later on, not because there was something left unfinished in the original, but because SE saw a potential profit source and thus expanded the story with unnecessarily retcon.

  5. #80

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    Quote Originally Posted by Elly View Post
    wow no interest in Star Wars, then you've missed a lot and i mean a lot of wonderfull SW referances throughout the FF Series of games as it is the most used pop culture referance in the series...
    Yes, your life has been wasted.

    It's kind of funny that you guys are comparing the compilation to the Star Wars EU, because I make that comparison all the time. I like to use it as a way of illustrating how poorly the FF7 expansion was handled, and how it could have been done right had they taken a lesson from Star Wars.

    Silly, silly Square.
    "The dark side of the Force is a pathway to many abilities some consider to be... unnatural."

    --Chancellor Palpatine

    Final Fantasy VIII: The Lionheart. Book one of my novelization.

    "Being a hero is not what will save you, Squall Leonhart. You are searching for the wrong treasure."


    Which Final Fantasy Character Are You?

  6. #81

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    Quote Originally Posted by Charcoal View Post
    Barret - "Cosmo Canyon... this is where AVALANCHE was born... I promised my guys someday... when we saved the planet from the Shinra, that we'd all go to Cosmo Canyon and celebrate... Biggs... Wedge... Jessie... Now they're all gone... died for the planet."
    In the original game this clearly hints that Barret created AVALANCHE and that he, Biggs, Wedge and Jessie were the main men behind it. There might very well have been minor AVALANCHE supporters along the way, not any of big importance though - like the ones in BC - because they were never presented or even mentioned. Like Deepground and SL this concept might be squeezed into the story if you really want them to, but that doesn't mean they're not retcon.

    The expanded AVALANCHE wasn't even mentioned in the original game and that would've been an important part of the storyline don't you think? Before Crisis has just been added later on, not because there was something left unfinished in the original, but because SE saw a potential profit source and thus expanded the story with unnecessarily retcon.
    Avalanche was born in Cosmo Canyon. Lets "Pretend" Barret started it. Assuming thats the case, Barret would have to have been from Cosmo Canyon, or been there shortly before the creation of avalanche. If this is the case, what are the reasons he has no Idea who Red or the Old man is? And why does no one from Cosmo Canyon know where he is?

    The answer is simple, he is not from, nor has he ever been there. Until they go there after Midgar, at which point he was already in Avalanche.
    Either this means FF VII had a huge Plot hole on its own, which was fixed by the Retcon, or there was no plot hole and Barret Never Created Avalanche, and only started the Section of Avalanche that was in Midgar.

  7. #82

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    Charcoal, I think you are failing to see something major in your argument. You are claiming that FFVII was a really really good stand alone game. I agree with you. Though I haven't taken the time to figure everything out myself, I have figured out quite a bit, based on the original game alone. And I do believe that it is entirely possible to discover everything there is about the original game just by playing the original game. However, this does not mean that the story is complete. It just means that the first chapter was told really well. Now, in Advent Children, the major story point (despite what it may seem) was Cloud finally releasing his guilt about Aerith's and Zach's deaths.

    If you want to rely only on the original game, Cloud never released this guilt. However, in AC, Cloud did. Obviously, if this is part of the story, FFVII does not complete the story. Because AC came along and helped us understand more about it. Two years after Meteorfall, Cloud released his guilt. There is no mention or even a slight reference to this in the original game. Do you know why? Because the game only deals with what happens in the game. It doesn't deal with what happened two years after the game.

    Thus, AC was needed to complete the story. And that's not all. Not only did Dirge of Cerberus add onto the original storyline, but it also gave us quite a bit of background on Vincent's life. There is no conceivable way to figure out all of Vincent's past just by playing FFVII. FFVII tells us that he was a Turk, that he loved Lucrecia Crescent (the original game actually never even gave us her last name), and that he had some dealings with Hojo because he never tried to stop Lucrecia and Hojo from completing the Jenova Project by injecting their own son with Jenova cells.

    Never does it tell us anything else about Vincent. However, for all you know, Square Enix could have written out Vincent's entire history before FFVII was even made, and then released it in a new game which not only gave us this information, but also new information. You want to know why Deepground is never even mentioned in VII? Because it was a completely secret organization. Reeve didn't even know of it's existence, and he was in the President's top circle. Only President Shinra (not Rufus), Heidegger, and Scarlet would have known, according to Reeve, as stated in DoC.

    So, as much as FFVII is a very well told story, it is hardly complete. Only paying attention to the original game and not the Compilation would be like reading the Hobbit and choosing to believe that the Lord of the Rings is an alternate story that you can choose to believe happened or not. Sorry, doesn't work that way. The Hobbit and LOTR are a package. Whether you like it or not, both things happened in the same universe. Same with the Compilation of Final Fantasy VII. Deal with it.

    Edit: By the way, Elly, would you mind if I quoted that bit about how there are three sides to every story, yours, mine, and the truth thing in my signature. I think that is an absolutely fantastic quote.

  8. #83

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    Avalanche was born in Cosmo Canyon. Lets "Pretend" Barret started it. Assuming thats the case, Barret would have to have been from Cosmo Canyon, or been there shortly before the creation of avalanche. If this is the case, what are the reasons he has no Idea who Red or the Old man is? And why does no one from Cosmo Canyon know where he is?

    The answer is simple, he is not from, nor has he ever been there. Until they go there after Midgar, at which point he was already in Avalanche.
    Either this means FF VII had a huge Plot hole on its own, which was fixed by the Retcon, or there was no plot hole and Barret Never Created Avalanche, and only started the Section of Avalanche that was in Midgar.
    Barret could've been in Cosmo Canyon when he/they (Biggs, Wedge, Jessie and maybe some randoms) started AVALANCHE, as far as I remember no visitors in Cosmo Canyon are forced into a sightseeing trip. The Cosmo Candle is one of the most notable things in the canyon, and so there is nothing suggesting Barret could not have been there earlier in his days.

    Charcoal, I think you are failing to see something major in your argument. You are claiming that FFVII was a really really good stand alone game. I agree with you. Though I haven't taken the time to figure everything out myself, I have figured out quite a bit, based on the original game alone. And I do believe that it is entirely possible to discover everything there is about the original game just by playing the original game. However, this does not mean that the story is complete. It just means that the first chapter was told really well. Now, in Advent Children, the major story point (despite what it may seem) was Cloud finally releasing his guilt about Aerith's and Zach's deaths.
    The story was complete, AC were never part of FFVII in the first place. Of course there is room for sequels, but that isn't necessarily.

    If you want to rely only on the original game, Cloud never released this guilt. However, in AC, Cloud did. Obviously, if this is part of the story, FFVII does not complete the story. Because AC came along and helped us understand more about it. Two years after Meteorfall, Cloud released his guilt. There is no mention or even a slight reference to this in the original game. Do you know why? Because the game only deals with what happens in the game. It doesn't deal with what happened two years after the game.
    It makes Cloud release his guilt and that may very well be part of the story. But it doesn't need to be, that's where it's at.

    Thus, AC was needed to complete the story. And that's not all. Not only did Dirge of Cerberus add onto the original storyline, but it also gave us quite a bit of background on Vincent's life. There is no conceivable way to figure out all of Vincent's past just by playing FFVII. FFVII tells us that he was a Turk, that he loved Lucrecia Crescent (the original game actually never even gave us her last name), and that he had some dealings with Hojo because he never tried to stop Lucrecia and Hojo from completing the Jenova Project by injecting their own son with Jenova cells.
    AC added something new to the story.

    One of the most difficult aspects of FFVII is deciphering Vincent's past. Many players, like yourself judging by your quote here, think there are no way of figuring it out. But you can, its just ridiculously hard because the hints are scattered across the game and not only in Vincent's flashback like many people think.

    Never does it tell us anything else about Vincent. However, for all you know, Square Enix could have written out Vincent's entire history before FFVII was even made, and then released it in a new game which not only gave us this information, but also new information.
    Believe me; Vincent's background in the original was nothing like the one in DoC (well for the most part). If you're in doubt (which I would guess you are since you said for yourself you haven't taken the time to figure everything) then I suggest you play the original game a couple times more to look for hidden clues, I'm sure you'll find differences between FFVII and DoC since they're quite obvious once you know what to look for.

    You want to know why Deepground is never even mentioned in VII? Because it was a completely secret organization. Reeve didn't even know of it's existence, and he was in the President's top circle. Only President Shinra (not Rufus), Heidegger, and Scarlet would have known, according to Reeve, as stated in DoC.
    How convenient then :rolleyes2 .

    Well, if you plan on looking for those Vincent’s past hints – luck with that ! Not like if you’re too likely to need it though considering how much DoC is focused on fans’ point of view rather then the complexity of the original plot.

    Btw, I wouldn't want to compare it to The Hobbit. Like I said some stories handle it better then others. And tbh I think The Hobbit had a lot of room for LOTR. Judging by all the resentful fans however, FFVII is quite a different story.
    Last edited by Charcoal; 03-28-2007 at 12:52 PM. Reason: Btw...

  9. #84

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    You're missing the point, though. Yes, AC wasn't necessary, but neither was The Hobbit. In fact, Tolkien only wrote the LOTR trilogy at the request of the fans that loved the Hobbit. How it was handled is a different matter. Whether fans liked the outcome or not, they are the ones who asked for the Compilation. Square most likely never intended making the Compilation, I agree with you there, but that doesn't mean tha they don't work well.

    As much as you'd like to believe that an extensive overview of Vincent's past is scattered in FFVII I can assure you that it is not. I haven't gone so far as to write down every bit of dialogue. But I've played through that game at least 10 times and I've done every side quest you could ever dream of. There's Vincent's flashback, and then there's a little bit more when you take Vincent to Lucrecia's Cave for the first and second times (considering the second time is when you are on the Third Disc).

    There is nothing wrong with a sequel as long as it can agree with the original, which the new ones pretty much do. In Advent Children, everything is consistent with the game. Tainted Lifestream exists because Jenova's cells have seeped into the Lifestream and caused it to be tainted. This is also what causes Geostigma. Break that word down and you get "mark of the earth" which makes sense. Lifestream is from the earth, but the tainted Lifestream causes this sickness (characterized by a stigma on the skin) in all who carry it. Why? Because they are carrying Jenova's cells and very few people can accept them. In fact, only those who have first been exposed to Mako can accept Jenova's cells. This is perfectly consistent with the original game.

    See how the new idea of tainted Lifestream was caused by the events of the game? And then you layer on the true story of Cloud releasing his guilt, with a pinch of side plot, that being the Shinentai of Sephiroth, and viola. You get AC.

    With DoC, they took the basics of what we knew about Vincent's past already (i.e. Turk, Lucrecia, Hojo, Jenova Project, guilt) and they embellished on them. That doesn't make it inconsistent with the game, it just gives us more detail than the game did. That's all. The addition to Vincent's past is entirely consistent with the original game. Whether it was intended or not is not the point. You are claiming that you are angry with the inconsistencies and the plot holes, so I'm showing you why the Compilation is neither.

    Now, about the Stagnant Lifestream, I cannot say. DoC didn't give us many clues about it's origin, use, or how it is controlled. It obviously has something to do with Vincent, considering that Lucrecia was studying it as part of her research on her thesis on Chaos, which she later applied to Vincent. We also know that Nero has some control over it. How or why we do not yet know. How the Stagnant Lifestream applies to and effects Vincent is not yet known. Perhaps it is just a mystery where we must suspend our disbelief, or perhaps it will be explained later on, but just because it didn't exist in the original game, doesn't mean that it's inconsisten with it. There's a difference.

  10. #85

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    those are some good points Aralith, and they totaly support what i've been trying to tell this guy, but he's worse about seeing what he wants to believe when faced with facts than a psychotic Southern Babtist Preacher, hence ima wash my hands of him, besides i still haven't finished DoC, too much real-world stuff keeps interupting my playtime, though i will make one final note as to why Barret may not have encountered Buggenhagen or Nanaki on his first visit, if you were to visit my home town and come to my house is there a guarantee that i will be here when you arrive, no there is not, i may even be out of town visiting family or friends, if Barret and his crew visited Cosmo Canyon before there is no 'set in stone rule' that all the inhabitants have to be there when they arrive, who knows how long Nanaki was a prisoner of Hojo, heck he may have even just been out hunting when Barret and his crew showed up, Buggenhagen could have been out studying the planet, it's what they do, now it is purely conjecture, but never the less it's still a valid theory, and i know Baret wasn't born or lived in Cosmo Canyon he was a citizen of Corel, but some time after the Corel incident he could have made his way to Cosmo Canyon (en route to Midgar) and have been awed by their connection with the planet, thus deciding to form Avalanche, it is never explicitly stated how the events transpired but none the less they did happen in the past before Clouds parties Visit to the Canyon as the phrase "was born" is clearly used in the past tense, and just as valid was the other theory that he may have only heard of Cosmo Canyon and based his beliefs on what he heard about the place, but once again it was clearly in the past, and the television reports you get to watch ingame keep hinting at the "Terrorist Orginization Avalanche" which implies more than 5 people, 5 people can not be an orginization, though they can be organized, they're way too small to be called an orginization, the group of Barret, Jessie, Biggs, Wedge, & Tifa could have been just a cell of Avalanche (albeit the primary cell but a cell none the less), it's hard to bust a Terrorist orginization if the group is splintered all over the world, terrorist cells work that way so if one group gets caught the rest can cary on with the orginizations plans...

    oh and Aralith i don't mind if you sigg me, i'm allright with that, i personaly like that quote and find some wisdom in it...

  11. #86

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    You're missing the point, though. Yes, AC wasn't necessary, but neither was The Hobbit. In fact, Tolkien only wrote the LOTR trilogy at the request of the fans that loved the Hobbit. How it was handled is a different matter. Whether fans liked the outcome or not, they are the ones who asked for the Compilation. Square most likely never intended making the Compilation, I agree with you there, but that doesn't mean tha they don't work well.
    As a sequel to FFVII, AC doesn’t do much wrong. It’s just that it’s what you call an add-on, and some of us who were happy with FFVII proper don’t want stuff like that. Like I said in the first post of the topic, the lifestream never got tainted. That’s because I stick with FFVII and nothing more because The Compilation was never intended to be a part of it. I’m saying make a choice because it’s there. AC isn’t half as bad as DoC and tbh I don’t hate the movie that much. DoC however might be the most crap game I’ve ever played due to the frustration of seeing the whole topic (Vincent’s past) being adapted what fans consider correct, just to sell. Don’t get me wrong, I like Vincent; I think he is cool, but I would never adapt the storyline to his view. Something DoC does, no doubt.

    As much as you'd like to believe that an extensive overview of Vincent's past is scattered in FFVII I can assure you that it is not. I haven't gone so far as to write down every bit of dialogue. But I've played through that game at least 10 times and I've done every side quest you could ever dream of. There's Vincent's flashback, and then there's a little bit more when you take Vincent to Lucrecia's Cave for the first and second times (considering the second time is when you are on the Third Disc).
    It’s extremely tricky. I’ve played the game somewhere between the range of 20-30 times times and I’ve written down all dialogue and I still consider the matter to be one, if maybe not even the, most difficult part of FFVII to solve.

    There is nothing wrong with a sequel as long as it can agree with the original, which the new ones pretty much do. In Advent Children, everything is consistent with the game. Tainted Lifestream exists because Jenova's cells have seeped into the Lifestream and caused it to be tainted. This is also what causes Geostigma. Break that word down and you get "mark of the earth" which makes sense. Lifestream is from the earth, but the tainted Lifestream causes this sickness (characterized by a stigma on the skin) in all who carry it. Why? Because they are carrying Jenova's cells and very few people can accept them. In fact, only those who have first been exposed to Mako can accept Jenova's cells. This is perfectly consistent with the original game.
    Yes, pretty much. Like I said, AC doesn’t do much wrong but it’s annoying for some of us to be handed a sequel ages later then the original arrived. So for those of us who would like to stick to the 1997 FFVII this tainted lifestream concept becomes a plot hole because it’s pure sequel material. And again I say that’s why we can choose. Again I tell you, it depends on how you see it.

    BC is a bit worse then AC. In that game they add a bunch of new characters never even mentioned in the original, in other words, obvious retcon arrives. Its fun for those wanting a prequel but for those of us who were happy with the original FFVII and don’t want it changed, it’s a pain in the ass to be blunt.

    DoC is the worst of the lot, completely editing an already existing part of the game while at the same time adding new material. This only sells because some people need everything with the Final Fantasy VII logo on it, others are Vincent fanboys (note that I like Vincent but I hated the game, which I guess makes me a regular fan) and so they now got a dream come true.

    And of course some buy it out of curiousity (like I did).

    So Aralith, you got great points explaining why those who accept The Compilation accept it. I admire that. However some of us don’t accept The Compilation because it is unnecessarily retcon. So that’s why some of us (including me) stick to the possibility of there being two versions. After all, the possibility is there.

    And Elly, AVALANCHE whether five members or more, may very well have been considered a threat by Shinra due to the lack of competition they have in the game. And like mentioned, there may have been randoms in it too. Not the ones from BC though, because they’re never presented and/or mentioned in the original.
    Last edited by Charcoal; 03-28-2007 at 07:05 PM. Reason: the ">>>"s popped up again, removed them now

  12. #87

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    Are you even hearing yourself? Let me show you a couple things that you said:

    Quote Originally Posted by Charcoal
    As a sequel to FFVII, AC doesn’t do much wrong. It’s just that it’s what you call an add-on, and some of us who were happy with FFVII proper don’t want stuff like that.
    So for those of us who would like to stick to the 1997 FFVII this tainted lifestream concept becomes a plot hole because it’s pure sequel material.
    I've boldened the parts I deem important in these quotes. The problem that you have with the Compilation is that you don't like or want sequel material. That's all fine and dandy but it doesn't change the fact that there is. Yes, VII is a great stand alone game, but obviously there are things that led up to the events in VII, and things that happened after the events in VII. All the Compilation is doing is giving us more of a world we already love. Oh, and do you even know what a plot hole is? You seem not to, so here's the Wikipedia definition of the word:

    Quote Originally Posted by Wikpedia
    A plot hole is a gap in a storyline that goes against the flow of logic set-up by the plot or that undermines the basic premises of the story. Plot holes are usually seen as weaknesses and flaws in a story, and writers try to avoid them (except in certain deliberate circumstances, usually for humorous effect) to make their stories seem as realistic and lifelike as possible.
    Now, I'm pretty sure that I just explained how Jenova tainting the Lifestream fits perfectly into the logical flow of the original game. Whether or not it was never intended is not the point right now. What matters is the logic and flow, because that's all that a plot hole is concerned with. Thus, as long as the explanation of the tainted Lifestream is consistent with the original game, which I've already shown that it is, it is not a plot hole.

    Now, like I said, I don't think enough information has been given about stagnant Lifestream to determine whether or not it logically fits with the world that the original game set up. Also, if you could show me a specific example in Dirge of Cerberus where Vincent's elaborated past clashed with the skeleton of a past that we find out in VII, that would be a plot hole. But as such, you have not shown me such an example yet. If you believe it exists, please tell me.

    I will check in both games the passage of which you speak (lucky me I just started playing both games again after a good six month hiatus from them) and get back to you on whether I truly believe that it is a plot hole or not. Until you can show me an example of this or any other plot hole, based on the definition above, not whatever definition you were using before, then we'll have made some progress here.

  13. #88

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    For the last time, I'm not saying you have to believe me. I say some of us stick to there being two versions because we don't want any unnecessarily retcon. And since SE has never denied that being a possibility we have the choice. I'm not saying The Compilation doesn't exist, I say it's an alternative, alright? Just like the original FFVII is an alternative to The Compilation.

    Maybe the phrase "may be an alternative" is more correct, after all the information I present isn't official. That means there are no proof on either side of the case and so it is up to the player whether to consider The Compilation canon or not.

  14. #89

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    No. No it isn't. The compilation is canon automatically, even if it introduces retcons and plot holes, the latter of which you have yet to demonstrate the existence of.

    I'll make this very simple- YOU DO NOT COMPREHEND THE MEANING OF THE TERMS YOU ARE USING IN THIS DEBATE. That it why you fail.

  15. #90

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    Once again, Charcoal, I ask that you please demonstrate a plot hole to me. If I find it compelling, I would be forced to reconsider my position. That is, not that the Compilation isn't canon, but that Nomura is a terrible story teller (which I already halfway feel anyways, but meh). If you post again without making even a mention of one of these fabled plot holes, then I will have no choice but to accept your concession.

    Edit: Oh, and by the way.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Dictionary
    of·fi·cial
    –noun
    1. a person appointed or elected to an office or charged with certain duties.
    –adjective
    2. of or pertaining to an office or position of duty, trust, or authority: official powers.
    3. authorized or issued authoritatively: an official report.
    4. holding office.
    5. appointed or authorized to act in a designated capacity: an official representative.
    6. (of an activity or event) intended for the notice of the public and performed or held on behalf of officials or of an organization; formal: the official opening of a store.
    7. Pharmacology. noting drugs or drug preparations that are recognized by and that conform to the standards of the United States Pharmacopeia or the National Formulary.

    can·on
    –noun
    1. an ecclesiastical rule or law enacted by a council or other competent authority and, in the Roman Catholic Church, approved by the pope.
    2. the body of ecclesiastical law.
    3. the body of rules, principles, or standards accepted as axiomatic and universally binding in a field of study or art: the neoclassical canon.
    4. a fundamental principle or general rule: the canons of good behavior.
    5. a standard; criterion: the canons of taste.
    6. the books of the Bible recognized by any Christian church as genuine and inspired.
    7. any officially recognized set of sacred books.
    8. any comprehensive list of books within a field.
    9. the works of an author that have been accepted as authentic: There are 37 plays in the Shakespeare canon. Compare apocrypha (def. 3).
    10. a catalog or list, as of the saints acknowledged by the Church.
    11. Liturgy. the part of the Mass between the Sanctus and the Communion.
    12. Eastern Church. a liturgical sequence sung at matins, usually consisting of nine odes arranged in a fixed pattern.
    13. Music. consistent, note-for-note imitation of one melodic line by another, in which the second line starts after the first.
    14. Printing. a 48-point type.
    I believe that the defintions we are using are #3 of official, and #9 of canon. Please try to keep all answers within the bounds of those two definitions. And since I already defined plot hole for you, you know that is so, have at it.
    Last edited by Aralith; 03-28-2007 at 10:09 PM.

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