The reasons why FFVII gamers can choose to ignore The Compilation if they wish

[Charcoal]

Alright, the plot holes in DoC can only be fully revealed by a very accurate explanation considering every difference between the two games or else it won't be convincing enough because additional questions tend to pop up. Because of this I'll have to bring in something similiar to an essay if I really want to prove my point. And that'll take some time. Well right now, I'm not up for that.

By the sound of it, it wouldn't matter if I showed you the plot holes either since every part of The Compilation is canon by default according to some of you. Why should I bother writing an essay if people are just gonna ignore it because it doesn't count anymore due to retcon?

... I give up. So no more trying to convince people on FF forums that SE might have made a mistake and so they might do smart in introducing their compilation as an alternative. Might be just as fair, most people on the forum seem to accept The Compilation anyway .

Like I said, I can't prove myself, I don't work for SE and so I can't contribute with any official information. Then again, nothing can prove me wrong either since SE has never denied there being a possibility.

[The Crystal]

Now, about the Stagnant Lifestream, I cannot say. DoC didn't give us many clues about it's origin, use, or how it is controlled. It obviously has something to do with Vincent, considering that Lucrecia was studying it as part of her research on her thesis on Chaos, which she later applied to Vincent. We also know that Nero has some control over it. How or why we do not yet know. How the Stagnant Lifestream applies to and effects Vincent is not yet known. Perhaps it is just a mystery where we must suspend our disbelief, or perhaps it will be explained later on, but just because it didn't exist in the original game, doesn't mean that it's inconsisten with it. There's a difference.

Chaos was a being completely made of Stagnant Lifestream. Vincent has it inside of him, this is why he was immune to Nero's darkness. After Chaos "die" in the end of the game, Vincent don't have any connection with SL anymore.

And if i remember well, Nero was injected with SL when he was in the womb(like Sephiroth and Jenova). After he was born, he accidentaly absorbed/killed his mother with his darkness. This is explained in DoC Online.

[Mirage]

No need for proof of the negative.

[Aralith]

Like I said, I can't prove myself, I don't work for SE and so I can't contribute with any official information. Then again, nothing can prove me wrong either since SE has never denied there being a possibility.

Well, as Mirage said, you don't have to prove a negative, it is assumed. My default position is that until Square Enix says that it is an alternate story line that it is not. You claiming that just because they haven't said it is so makes it a possibility is like claiming that LOTR is really just an alternate storyline of The Hobbit because it was never intended and Tolkien never said any different. There is no need for LOTR to be alternate because it is completely in sync with The Hobbit in terms of logic and flow. So is the Compilation in sync with the original Final Fantasy VII.

Oh, and you've clearly never seen me in a debate before. My mind has been changed several times before. But only after sufficient evidence has been presented, which is not the case here. And considering that you are refusing to give me this evidence, you leave me no choice. Concession accepted.

[Charcoal]

Well The Hobbit & LOTR looks sync in terms of logic and flow to me. FFVII however don't. And it's not only me who has that opinion, I've seen many others. I'm quite sure there are far more Compilation Haters then LOTR haters. However, like mentioned earlier in the topic we who hate The Compilation are likely outnumbered by those who accept it. I'm simply suggesting that we who hate The Compilation should be able to consider it an alternative to the original. After all, the possibility is there. So what I mean is, everyone should make up their own opinion since there is no proof on either side of the case.

[Aralith]

But there is proof. You're just ignoring it. If there were these gaping plot holes that you claim exist, that would definitely weaken my faith in the Compilation (I say gaping because every story has it's minor plot holes every now and then). If you really want to make your point, you have to provide evidence. You can't just say, "Ha ha, I'm right. And there's no evidence either way, so you can never disprove me!" That's utter bull. I can disprove you by explaining every plothole you threw at me. I explained tainted Lifestream. I said that stagnant Lifestream doesn't have enough known about it to say whether it's a plot hole or not, so for now I must assume the default position that it's not. And that will be my position on the entire Compilation until you can prove otherwise.

Oh, and just as a side note: I actually haven't said anything on whether I like or hate the Compilation. You seem to be assuming that because I accept it, I must like it. That is not entirely true. Though I do appreciate the Compilation as eye candy more than anything, and a little bit of background story (that being DoC), it is nowhere near on par with the original game. I like FFVII far more than the Compilation, but that is not what is mattering right now. Just because you hate the Compilation doesn't mean that you can't accept it as canon. It just means that you think they ruined a good story. And if that's how you feel, just ignore it for yourself, but claiming that it's an "alternate" storyline is ridiculous, misleading, and unofficial.

[Charcoal]

Just because you hate the Compilation doesn't mean that you can't accept it as canon. It just means that you think they ruined a good story. And if that's how you feel, just ignore it for yourself, but claiming that it's an "alternate" storyline is ridiculous, misleading, and unofficial.

It's not just me who feel that way; many FFVII players think The Compilation ruined the story. I haven't heard many say LOTR suck and ruined The Hobbit. And that's part of what it's at. So of course its frustrating "having" to accept The Compilation canon. That's why some of us would like The Compilation to be an alternative. SE has never denied the possibility and so some of us do consider The Compilation an alternative. And I don't say everyone should follow us Compilation Haters. If you like The Compilation, consider the 1997 original an alternative. If you don't like The Compilation consider it an alternative. There is room for both.

[Bolivar]

Charcoal, I think I understand what you're trying to say and I'm going to step in and defend it before this conversation devolves any further.

There is a web site called Eyesonff.com. It has forums devoted to Games, daily life, etc. One of the forums is reserved for discussion of Final Fantasy VII. I go there when I want to talk about Final Fantasy VII, a video game released by SquareSOFT in 1997 for Playstation.

I don't come here to discuss canon. I wouldn't call myself a "hater". I enjoy watching scenarios that take place in the FF7 Universe. But when I talk about FF7 or compare it to other games, I'm talking about an RPG, not an RPG and a few movies and a shooting game, and a few mobile games. I'm talking about FF7 for the PSX.

The Crystal - you and others brought up numerous times about the UOG and how the creators gave a definitive answer to many questions about FF.

But you're placing too much credit onto it. One of the best things bout FFVII is that much of it is left up to interpretation - including the debate over whether Sephiroth controlled Jenova or vice versa.

Controversies like this are not definitively resolved by some UO guide. There is nothing in FF7 that distinctly states which controlled the other. Yes, Kitase/Nomura stated that Sephiroth was the controller. But he could wake up tomorrow and say to a newspaper that it was the other way around. The bottom line is the creators' publicity statements are irrelevant to what the game did and did not represent.

Ryushikaze - this goes for you too, buddy. When I play the game, and discuss the game any and all of the retcons you defiantly defend are irrelevant to me. When I'm playing the flashback where Cloud throws Sephiroth in the mako, am I supposed to close my eyes, cover my ears and envision the scene from Last Order?

Get the F*** outta here.

[Ryushikaze]

Ryushikaze - this goes for you too, buddy. When I play the game, and discuss the game any and all of the retcons you defiantly defend are irrelevant to me. When I'm playing the flashback where Cloud throws Sephiroth in the mako, am I supposed to close my eyes, cover my ears and envision the scene from Last Order?

Yes. BECAUSE IT'S BEEN GORRAM RETCONNED. When Lucas Released the SE's for 4, 5, & 6 those took precedence over the previously released versions. You may still watch and enjoy them, but Greedo shoots first, even if you or I don't like it.
Similarly, Last Order, watched over by the same creative minds as the original game, takes precedence over the original game. It 'corrects' it, as it were.

And I'm not the one defiantly defending things. You are the one defiantly defending a version of events which no longer stands as official. It's like defending Cloud's Kalm retelling as official when there is a more accurate version in existence.

Get the F*** outta here.

No. Bite me. Come up with better arguments.

[Darth Anarcus]

As I said before, the events shown in Last Order are not drastic enough to be considered retcons. The changes are so subtle that one should not even be bothered by them. They're simply being told from a different perspective.

I'll try to find that post.

EDIT: Here it is:

People, when we see events playing out differently (such as Last Order's depiction of the Nibelbeim incidents as opposed to the original game's), these should be understood less as retcons and more as different depictions, or interpretations, either told from different points of view or expanded upon. Naturally, some things will be different. Retcons, however, are those major changes to the story. But things like Tifa discovering her father outside of the reactor rather than inside, Cloud stabbing Sephiroth before he turns around rather than after, Cloud being impaled twice, and Sephiroth willingly jumping into the Lifestream rather than being tossed in: these things are extremely subtle differences in narration rather than retcons.

And Han shot first, damnit! (Pretty much everything else I'm okay with.)

[The Crystal]

The Crystal - you and others brought up numerous times about the UOG and how the creators gave a definitive answer to many questions about FF.

But you're placing too much credit onto it. One of the best things bout FFVII is that much of it is left up to interpretation - including the debate over whether Sephiroth controlled Jenova or vice versa.

Controversies like this are not definitively resolved by some UO guide. There is nothing in FF7 that distinctly states which controlled the other. Yes, Kitase/Nomura stated that Sephiroth was the controller. But he could wake up tomorrow and say to a newspaper that it was the other way around. The bottom line is the creators' publicity statements are irrelevant to what the game did and did not represent.

Yes, much of FFVII was left to interpretation. Until SE decided to explain everything, in a book. But some people think they have more authority over FFVII's universe than SE, and can decide what is canon and what isn't. And this is sad.
You and Charcoal can belive in whatever you want. I don't care AND SE don't care too. Reality will not change just because you want.

[Charcoal]

You and Charcoal can belive in whatever you want. I don't care AND SE don't care too. Reality will not change just because you want.

The possibility for what I suggest is there. All I ask is an alternative.

[Aralith]

You and Charcoal can belive in whatever you want. I don't care AND SE don't care too. Reality will not change just because you want.

The possibility for what I suggest is there. All I ask is an alternative.

No, that possibility isn't there, because... guess what. Whether you like it or not, the Compilation is official. It's also canon. When it is both of those things, it takes precedent over anything that came before. Really thinking about it, the Compilation changes hardly a thing. Last Order changed the scene at the Mako Reactor atop Mt. Nibel so minutely, it doesn't really matter. If Dirge of Cerberus did change the past of Vincent as we learned it in FFVII, then it is minutely that I, a major fan of the game, didn't notice it, and when DoC did change that past, it takes precedent over whatever past that FFVII gave us. That's that. It's final. No alternate realities.

[Charcoal]

I've already explained several times why there is room for both. Now if your opinion is set, then alright, you've made up your mind. That doesn't make your opinion a fact, however. Like I said, there is no proof on either side of the case.

[Paul]

hi i read the first page only.

you can't expect a new team to add to a work of fiction nearly a decade after its original release and have it come out credible or authentic. it doesn't happen. no matter how hard they tried to remain authentic it would be hard to capture the same atmosphere or to recapture the characters personalities.

although it is official and the story is owned by square they can do what they want with it, it's clear that the motive is profits. the compilation, particularly advent children, is very "sexed up" compared to the subtle and downtrodden feel of FF7. it's understandable for a piece of literature to take a change in direction when attacked by a different team several years later. you don't have to consider it canon just because square does. they're making money out of doing that. are you?