So I just finished and I am a little confused... (WHOLE THREAD IS SPOILER)

[Renmiri]

Based on many of the little things that pop up in Final Fantasy XII (most notably many of the bestiary entries), it became apparent to me that the Ivalice of FFXII had far more development and backstory than any other Final Fantasy world today. The potential was all there, and I honestly believe that the development team wanted to make the most of it.

The result, however, was a watered-down version

Aye, it took me ages to even LIKE the game, because I was so pi$$ed off with all the wasted potential

In the end it was a fun game, that I played even longer than my favorite (FFX) but it was not the best FF that I ever played. It could have been, though

[Wolf Kanno]

Based on many of the little things that pop up in Final Fantasy XII (most notably many of the bestiary entries), it became apparent to me that the Ivalice of FFXII had far more development and backstory than any other Final Fantasy world today. The potential was all there, and I honestly believe that the development team wanted to make the most of it.

The result, however, was a watered-down version of Final Fantasy Tactic's plot. Tactics has, perhaps, the best plot of any video game I've ever played. Similarly to FFXII, Tactics sported a plot revolving entirely around medieval politics. The main difference is that Tactics doesn't have a number tacked on it. I think that the XII in the title severely limited the complexity of FFXII's story.

It's actually rather disappointing, because it's obvious that FFXII's plot could have been absolutely fantastic. The mediocre story isn't because the team lacked creativity and the ability to make something complex and intriguing, it's because if the plot was anywhere near as involved as it should have been, the result would have been the same as Final Fantasy Tactics--a game you have to follow very, very closely to understand what the hell is going on. Based on how many people absolutely hate Tactics for that reason, dumbing down the plot of FFXII was merely a marketing move.

That's how I feel about it, anyway.

You know, I have seriously debated this. Though I feel XII's plot is better than a lot of the numbered FFs I don't feel like it lived up to Matsuo's normal storytelling level. Both Tactics and Vagrant Story tell incredibly complex stories but TA and XII have both always given me the impression they were dumbed down.

I can't say for sure though. Usually the plot is completely written up before production and we know Matsuo left mid developement (the game was in playable form) so we can assume the plot is the way it's suppose to be. Perhaps, Squeenix asked him to make something more "user friendly" but this is pure specualtion. I guess we'll never know until the man shows up again. He has not made a public appearance since 04 if I remember correctly.

[Renmiri]

The plot of XII is not bad at all. The execution is what was lacking, i.e. how the plot was communicated to players. They violated a lot of good writing maxims on the way they did it. Good writers can do that and still come up with a killer story, i.e, Fargo by the brother's Cohen, which violated pretty much every golden rule Syd Field and others "in the know" set for script writing. Alas, the game script writers were no brothers Cohen so the story flailed in spite of a good creative plot

BTW: Writing rules violated on Fargo
1) We are never told why the husband needs the kidnapping done
2) A complete stranger to the plot is introduced and never mentioned again (the japanese guy)
3) A protagonist is pregnant yet is the main "action" character
4) Several plot twists that "redraw" the story
5) Clichee:Mean cartoonish villain (blond guy)
6) Clichee: Dumb sidekick (small guy)
7) Unnecessary, meaningless blood spilling (wood chipper scene)
8) Ambiguous morals (Father in law is a jerk, husband is a bad guy but sympathetic)
...

And it won an Oscar...

Writing rules violated on XII
1) We are never told why Vaan tags along with Ashe, why Basch fiercely protects Dalmasca, what resistance leaqder is Ashe that doesn't even know her uncle is on her side, etc..
2) A complete stranger to the plot is introduced and never mentioned again (Havharro, Miguelo, Drace...)
3) A protagonist is not the leader yet is the main "action" character (Vaan)
4) Several plot twists that "redraw" the story
5) Clichee: Mean cartoonish villain (Vayne), Mad scientist (Dr. Cid)
6) Clichee: Dumb sidekick (Bergan), Evil twin (Gabi)....
7) Unnecessary, meaningless blood spilling (Resistance ships, almost Rabanastre)
8) Ambiguous morals (Occuria are jerks, Dr. Cid is a bad guy but his plight is sympathetic)
...

[Wolf Kanno]

The plot of XII is not bad at all. The execution is what was lacking, i.e. how the plot was communicated to players. They violated a lot of good writing maxims on the way they did it. Good writers can do that and still come up with a killer story, i.e, Fargo by the brother's Cohen, which violated pretty much every golden rule Syd Field and others "in the know" set for script writing. Alas, the game script writers were no brothers Cohen so the story flailed in spite of a good creative plot

BTW: Writing rules violated on Fargo
1) We are never told why the husband needs the kidnapping done
2) A complete stranger to the plot is introduced and never mentioned again (the japanese guy)
3) A protagonist is pregnant yet is the main "action" character
4) Several plot twists that "redraw" the story
5) Clichee:Mean cartoonish villain (blond guy)
6) Clichee: Dumb sidekick (small guy)
7) Unnecessary, meaningless blood spilling (wood chipper scene)
8) Ambiguous morals (Father in law is a jerk, husband is a bad guy but sympathetic)
...

First off: Fargo is a horrible movie...
Second: The Oscars are the last thing anyone should ever use to act as a judgement system to determine what's "good" in the movie industry.

Writing rules violated on XII
1) We are never told why Vaan tags along with Ashe, why Basch fiercely protects Dalmasca, what resistance leaqder is Ashe that doesn't even know her uncle is on her side, etc..

The opening of the game is all about how Vaan is trying to "help Dalmasca" in fact he only gets mixed up in all this nonsense cause of his lame brain scheme to steal from the royal treasury before the Archadians get to it. His motive is later made even clearer in his conversations to Basch when they return to Rabanastre and Vaan talks about the war orphans and the mistreatment the people have suffered under Imperial rule. Did you want him to come out say specifically why so you can add it to your "telegraphing the plot" argument ?

Basch is trying to protect his new home. He has seen first hand what happens to kingdoms overtakened by the empire and hopes to succeed where he has failed before. Interestingly enough, his conversation with Gabranth at the end where Gabranth curses him for abandoning their homeland gives an inclination that perhaps Basch is also trying to redeem himself for what happened in his past. This is pure specualtion but it's logically sound.

As for Ashe, the game gives the impression that only Vossler knew the the truth. Basch didn't find out until after he met up with the resistance in Rabanastre and spoke with Vossler directly. The Marquis was most likely trying to do his best to keep his involvement a secret in hopes that he can get more intel on the Empire, thus he told no one. Most of the resistance was against Ashe being involved in the actual fighting since the Marquis did so much to fake her death and allow her to go underground. I don't think anyone plaaned on her getting personally involved in the war for the kingdom's independance but Lady Ashe is definetly a "hands on" kind of woman.

2) A complete stranger to the plot is introduced and never mentioned again (Havharro, Miguelo, Drace...)

Migelo is a traditional "parent" in a JRPG. Their role basically ends once the "children" prove they can stand on their own feet and leave the "nest". But he does still have a few minor roles based on Mark Hunts... But honestly, Migelo is mostly a character used to show the player how Dalmasca has survived under political rule. He's a prominent figure who basically pays off the imperial dignitaries and soldiers to "look the other way". It's a quality that Vaan hates and is used to fuel his hatred for the empire.

Drace (though I regret her role was rather small) is also a symbolic figure to show not only the opposition within the empire for Vayne but also to serve as an "example" of those who oppose Vayne. She's a different political force in the empire which gets stamped out by Vayne to prove his authority is absolute. I also feel her death was created to show the conflict that Gabranth has within him. It showed a more "human side" to him. He opposes Vayne but follows orders in order to keep his promise to the late emperor. It showed his loyalty and determination.

You have me with Havharro though, as I cannot even remember who this character is.

3) A protagonist is not the leader yet is the main "action" character (Vaan)

I don't necessarily understand what you mean hear I'm afraid...

Vaan is the first character we are "properly" introduced to, as well as being the character most likely to identify with the target audiance for the series (12-18 year olds). Also this happens in plenty of other stories (BoF IV is a perfect example) but honestly we are seeing the story slightly through his eyes since we started with him, but also as I've stated before that Vaan's growth in the story comes from him being an observer. He's hardly an "action" character as his role is mostly relegated to him observing the adults.

Several plot twists that "redraw" the story

This applies to every JRPG on the market, including FFX

5) Clichee: Mean cartoonish villain (Vayne), Mad scientist (Dr. Cid)

Vayne's pretty damn manipulative so he's not exactly cartoonish... but most of this thread is about how Vayne and Cid are in the story and I feel there are quite a few convincing arguments on the contrary.

6) Clichee: Dumb sidekick (Bergan), Evil twin (Gabi)....

Bergan is your atypical fanatical supporter. He believes strongly in Vayne"s methods and ideals and saw the former Emperor as "weak" this is all explained in the Judge meeting where Drace is murdered.

On a pure specualtive note: Since Bergan is one of the older Judges, it stands to reason he came from a different era than some of the others. He most likely held this position in the days Vayne killed his brothers and the wars that took Noah and Basch's homeland. He's a hardliner like General McDouglas who lacks the judgement to know when to deal with a situation diplomatically.

As for the Evil twin thing... Gabranth is far from an evil character and despite what most people think. Twins are used in mature storytelling very often MGS, DMC, and The Man behind the Iron Mask are the very few I can think of. It's mostly used in Scooby Doo cartoons Also, unlike many "twin" stories, XII never dwells on it. It used to show how the empire takes advantage of a situation but it's not like every time the empire needed to throw a wrench in the parties plans they had Gabranth pretending to be Basch and do something... EVIL!!!!

I feel the games lack of focus on this matter removes it from the standard cliche department.

7) Unnecessary, meaningless blood spilling (Resistance ships, almost Rabanastre)

Welcome to the real world... People fight for ideals, homelands, and to protect what's important to them. Our history is a testament to this. It's not "bad writing" when all one has to do is open a history book or even a newspaper and see that it's something that happens everyday.

8) Ambiguous morals (Occuria are jerks, Dr. Cid is a bad guy but his plight is sympathetic)

Once again, welcome to the real world... Despite what most people think, the world is not "black or white" but just shades of gray. People have their own ideals of morality and there really is no such thing as "universal morality". There are times of a "majority morality" but that's generally due to sociolization within a culture. Conflict usually springs up when these different views clash with each other. In fact, Squall from FFVIII says it perfectly...

"There is no right or wrong in war, just people with different views"

Ambiguous morlas are not really a story writing no-no, in fact most times it leads to stronger storytelling cause it's up to those expereincing the story to come to their own conclusions.

In the case of the last two, I feel FFXII's story represents the defining aspect of what art is... Art is a reflection of society and culture.

Just like old times...

[Omni-Odin]

Once again we've established that FFXII just has too many plotholes to ignore. Hopefully Revenant Wings covers it at some point.

[Wolf Kanno]

Once again we've established that FFXII just has too many plotholes to ignore. Hopefully Revenant Wings covers it at some point.

And what plotholes are these Omni-Odin?

[Shattered Dreamer]

Where is the love story gone? You mean we have to settle for Ashe's love of Dalmasca!!!After Squall & Rinoa & then Cloud & Aeris/Tifa I'm expected to swallow that. The potential in FFXII for a love story was sorely wasted. You can't deny Ashe had more than Knight/Queen feelings for Basch & he for her with his reaction to her letter. She also displays feeling Balthier but again no development. Was Balthier & Fran meant to be our love story then? And of course Vaan & Penelo, are we supposed to believe that partners meant partners in crime but then you consider Penelo seem to have a thing for Larsa. Final Fantasy always had some kind of love story but FFXII what happened?

[Renmiri]

WK, I'm in a hurry now but I shall be back to refute your points one by one... Meanwhile, you should read a bit more about Fargo and the Brothers Cohen. Honestly, anyone who loves writing should...

[Wolf Kanno]

Where is the love story gone? You mean we have to settle for Ashe's love of Dalmasca!!!After Squall & Rinoa & then Cloud & Aeris/Tifa I'm expected to swallow that. The potential in FFXII for a love story was sorely wasted. You can't deny Ashe had more than Knight/Queen feelings for Basch & he for her with his reaction to her letter. She also displays feeling Balthier but again no development. Was Balthier & Fran meant to be our love story then? And of course Vaan & Penelo, are we supposed to believe that partners meant partners in crime but then you consider Penelo seem to have a thing for Larsa. Final Fantasy always had some kind of love story but FFXII what happened?

Never have I ever felt that the love story was the defining feature in the FF series. In fact the best ones are the suttle ones like VI/VII's love stories. Though XII did have the potential for several love stories, I for one, am grateful it was not readily present. The series needs to mix it up abit from time to time.

WK, I'm in a hurry now but I shall be back to refute your points one by one... Meanwhile, you should read a bit more about Fargo and the Brothers Cohen. Honestly, anyone who loves writing should...

I'm looking forward to it but alas, I cannot find myself liking Fargo. It's intriguing at times but never held my interest. The acting was flat and in the end, I still believe it's due to the perfect Wisconsin accents that made people like this movie rather than anything else .

[Renmiri]

It's the perfect Wisconsin EVERYTHING. The script writers captured the angst and pain undercurrents in such a nice calm place and situation - an adorable husband /wife & kid family in Smallville USA - and showed it very convincingly, nothing feels fake about it. It is a ghastly, gruesome crime, the kind you would expect on NY or LA, not in Podunk, IA. And do you want a less likely "hero" than a fat 9 months pregnant sheriff ? Yet she and the movie comes out perfectly believable. Takes A LOT of writing and acting skills to pull that off!

Now to business...

Writing rules violated on XII
1) We are never told why Vaan tags along with Ashe, why Basch fiercely protects Dalmasca, what resistance leaqder is Ashe that doesn't even know her uncle is on her side, etc..

The opening of the game is all about how Vaan is trying to "help Dalmasca" i... Did you want him to come out say specifically why so you can add it to your "telegraphing the plot" argument ?

Vaan actually says he has no reason twice: "I don't want to just be left behind here" in Bhujerba and later to Balthier's question of "what do you want" he answers "you know..."

I do admire your talent for filling in the blanks for the script writers though

2) A complete stranger to the plot is introduced and never mentioned again (Havharro, Miguelo, Drace...)

Drace (though I regret her role was rather small) ..

Precisely. All those extras had roles that were rather small (Havahro is the Bhujerba resistance leader that meets Vaan). Rikken, Elsa and Raz (the 3 Reddas groupies), Tomaj.... The "rules" say that if you introduce a character you should take time to put him on the story, otherwise you are just disrupting the flow of the narrative and confusing the reader.

On Fargo, they managed to pull it off, introducing a random Japanese friend of the sheriff woman, because they made it a tale about loneliness in big cities. I mean, hitting on an older pregnant woman ? How desperate is that ? It all fit the plot and theme about how big cities and small cities have similar woes deep down, even though it was a random character that was never heard off again. His appearance was the exact "size" to convey that message and exit stage left. Had he shown up again it would just disrupt the story.

On XII we are left wanting more of the characters. The inner struggle within the Empire deserved more than 1 minute cut scene, and so did Reddas friends, the resistance, etc...

3) A protagonist is not the leader yet is the main "action" character (Vaan)

I don't necessarily understand what you mean hear I'm afraid...

Do you want a less likely "hero" than Fargo's fat 9 months pregnant older woman ? Yet it works. when you watch the movie you truly believe she is the one investigating the crime and catching the perps

Vaan OTOH is a dream filled younger brother that could turn out to be a hero easily, yet never quite "works". No one leaves the game with the impression he is the leader of anything, that he was the driving force behind the quests, etc...

Again, the "rules" are to make sure your protagonist is believable as hero or villain, not to make a sidekick your protagonist. Takes a lot of skill to pull it off a believable sidekick protagonist.

IMHO the writers on X did that well. Tidus is a sidekick to Auron and Yuna yet you follow his exploits. You truly believe he is the main character. The narration trick helped a lot but the entire script was very well written in this aspect.

Several plot twists that "redraw" the story

This applies to every JRPG on the market, including FFX

True, but some do it better than others

5) Clichee: Mean cartoonish villain (Vayne), Mad scientist (Dr. Cid), Dumb sidekick (Bergan), Evil twin (Gabi)....

Bergan is your atypical typical fanatical supporter. He believes strongly in Vayne"s methods and ideals and saw the former Emperor as "weak" this is all explained in the Judge meeting where Drace is murdered.

Well, again, the golden rules tell writers to use few or no clichees. And again, some good writers can use 100 clichees and make a masterpiece, while most of us can't manage that. I personally feel XII writers used way too many clichees and it made the story less readable / viewable because of it. The "not so-evil" twin was a good twist but when they added to the rest made it too much IMHO. Felt like eating stale leftovers from way too many stories

On a pure specualtive note: Since Bergan is one of the older Judges, it stands to reason he came from a different era than some of the others. He most likely held this position in the days Vayne killed his brothers and the wars that took Noah and Basch's homeland. He's a hardliner like General McDouglas who lacks the judgement to know when to deal with a situation diplomatically.

I just love how you can fill in the blanks. You should rewrite XII's script someday

]7) Unnecessary, meaningless blood spilling (Resistance ships, almost Rabanastre)

Welcome to the real world... People fight for ideals, homelands, and to protect what's important to them. Our history is a testament to this. It's not "bad writing" when all one has to do is open a history book or even a newspaper and see that it's something that happens everyday

Last time I checked we had no Aeons here The attack on Mt. Bur-Omisace's refugee camp was completely unnecessary to the plot, as were the "mommy, talk to me mommy" heartbreaking NPC dialogs there. It spoiled my enjoyment of that portion of the game, particularly because it is never addressed at the end. Ashe and Larsa never sent relief supplies or anything. Another plot string left untied, raised for the sheer heck of it then abandoned

X had a much darker, bloodier plot. Continuous genocide for 1,000 years ? A land of widows and orphans ? Yet we get to DO something against it and the entire sunny cheery landscape distracts you from the horrible reality the world of Spira faces. On XII the genocide seems like an after thought that no one, not even you, should care about.

8) Ambiguous morals (Occuria are jerks, Dr. Cid is a bad guy but his plight is sympathetic)

Once again, welcome to the real world... Despite what most people think, the world is not "black or white" but just shades of gray...

Ambiguous morals are not really a story writing no-no, in fact most times it leads to stronger storytelling

You are correct. But writing a story with ambiguous morals is harder to get it to work. I feel the XII script writers fell short on it. They presented blacks and whites and left up to you to make it "gray". A better writer would have made a masterpiece with all the nuances of the plot arch. The Occuria being jerks and Cid/ Vayne's alleged quest to free humanity from them was a very creative idea and it was very poorly explored IMHO.

So was the sibling relationship of Vayne and Larsa. Or Gramis change of heart with old age... So many plot openings left untied / unexplored.

IMHO they cut the XII script development in half at SE. You can clearly see many ideas added for later fleshing out that were never finished.

[Neo-Omega Mk XXV]

I think the question of whether or not traditional writing "rules" (and as an aside I care little for traditional "rules" in artistic domains) apply to video games is still open. It goes without saying that an interactive medium is very different from a non-interactive one, probably in ways that hardly anyone has theorized yet.

That said, some of Renmiri's specific points are still worth replying to, though WK has done a good job with several of them:

1) We are never told why Vaan tags along with Ashe, why Basch fiercely protects Dalmasca, what resistance leaqder is Ashe that doesn't even know her uncle is on her side, etc..
2) A complete stranger to the plot is introduced and never mentioned again (Havharro, Miguelo, Drace...)
3) A protagonist is not the leader yet is the main "action" character (Vaan)
4) Several plot twists that "redraw" the story
5) Clichee: Mean cartoonish villain (Vayne), Mad scientist (Dr. Cid)
6) Clichee: Dumb sidekick (Bergan), Evil twin (Gabi)....
7) Unnecessary, meaningless blood spilling (Resistance ships, almost Rabanastre)
8) Ambiguous morals (Occuria are jerks, Dr. Cid is a bad guy but his plight is sympathetic)

1) is pretty much a video game staple, and there seems little reason to single out FFXII for it. There's nothing remotely plausible about a blitzball playing 17 year old with an outfit that looks like it was rejected from Kefka's wardrobe being accepted as a guardian and then embarking on a world spanning and world saving quest. I don't care what in-game reason is provided for this - it amounts to little more than an excuse for continuing with the JRPG cliche of teenage world-saving heroes that's no more believable than the motivations assigned to Vaan or Basch.

You concede that 8) is not a rule, but inexplicably claim that the writers left it up for you to make the blacks and whites "grays" when IMO the "grays" are obvious.
I don't see why 2) is a big deal at all in any story, though I think Drace was another example of wasted potential. But other than that I don't find anything disruptive or confusing about her or Miguelo. In Miguelo's case the fact that he has no role after the opening is understandable, and Drace was just underdeveloped. Like WK I don't remember Havharro at all despite just finishing my second playthrough.
WK also points out that 4) is a defining feature of JRPGs, and I don't see at all why FFXII handles it less well than any other JRPG. FFIX and Chrono Cross are textbook examples of games that handle plot-redrawing twists poorly, and indeed FFXII refeshingly lacks "ZOMG EVERTHING YOU KNOW IS WRONG!1!!!11" type plot-twists.
3) I don't see how Vaan is the "action character" after the first third of the game.
5) A cartoonish villain is not a cliche as far as I can tell, but just a general weakness in itself. Nevertheless you have yet to give a convincing argument that Vayne is cartoonish, you just assert that he is. IMO he is far and away the least cartoonish FF villain yet, and only a few stupid lines delivered during the battle with his Novus form qualify as cheesy. Overall, he's much less embarrassing than anything else the series has produced thus far. Cid does adhere to the mad scientist cliche all too often, but still strikes me as relatively well done. Bergan is not dumb, he is simply authoritarian and is in any case not a sidekick.
7) Doom 3's plot has unnecessary bloodletting. By comparison, what is meaningless about the destruction of the resistance ships? Since when is "almost bloodletting" bloodletting? You write:

Last time I checked we had no Aeons here The attack on Mt. Bur-Omisace's refugee camp was completely unnecessary to the plot, as were the "mommy, talk to me mommy" heartbreaking NPC dialogs there. It spoiled my enjoyment of that portion of the game, particularly because it is never addressed at the end. Ashe and Larsa never sent relief supplies or anything. Another plot string left untied, raised for the sheer heck of it then abandoned

X had a much darker, bloodier plot. Continuous genocide for 1,000 years ? A land of widows and orphans ? Yet we get to DO something against it and the entire sunny cheery landscape distracts you from the horrible reality the world of Spira faces. On XII the genocide seems like an after thought that no one, not even you, should care about.

The attack on Bur-Omisace's refugee camp was pretty minor really, and not out of character for Bergan. It certainly doesn't qualify as "genocide" (probably Sin's killings don't technically qualify as genocide either). Sin's killings also aren't continuous, and IMO their impact is diminished by the fact that they are thwarted over and over in an almost mechanical fashion. So what if he rises up every ten years to wreak some havoc? He's guaranteed to be destroyed again anyway. Not only that, but by simply defying a tradition the characters find out that killing this almighty monster is rather straightforward in reality. I felt that the whole Yu Yevon/Sin summoning was not very well explained either. It may be that I wasn't paying close enough attention, but why was the whole convulted set-up with the final summoning really necessary for Yu Yevon's continued existence? What does this stupid tick/squid/spider thing do all day anyway?

[Shattered Dreamer]

Never have I ever felt that the love story was the defining feature in the FF series. In fact the best ones are the suttle ones like VI/VII's love stories. Though XII did have the potential for several love stories, I for one, am grateful it was not readily present. The series needs to mix it up abit from time to time.

Yeah your right. I never saw the love story as a defining feature but still it was a shame to see all the potential for one existing in the FFXII go to waste.

[Wolf Kanno]

Once again, Neo-Mark beat me too it...

I agree that convential writing rules do not completely apply to video games. Nor do they really apply to comic books, movies, and TV shows since they are all very different forms of media so certain rules don't necessarily apply. Specifically points 2 and 3 don't apply to RPGs if you really look back on it's history.

Seriously, I had fights with my teacher in creative writing class cause I was outling a script for a comic but she badgered me constantly about how it doesn't follow conventional rules. Cause conventional rules dictate you cannot have a personal narrative and an objective narrative at the same time whereas a comic book allows the freedom to do so. In fact it happens more often than people think and yet it never causes any confusions (mostly due to the advent of the pictures...)

It's the perfect Wisconsin EVERYTHING. The script writers captured the angst and pain undercurrents in such a nice calm place and situation - an adorable husband /wife & kid family in Smallville USA - and showed it very convincingly, nothing feels fake about it. It is a ghastly, gruesome crime, the kind you would expect on NY or LA, not in Podunk, IA. And do you want a less likely "hero" than a fat 9 months pregnant sheriff ? Yet she and the movie comes out perfectly believable. Takes A LOT of writing and acting skills to pull that off!

Both of which the writers and actors lacked. It was a terrible movie Renmiri . "Search your feelings... you know it to be true!"

Writing rules violated on XII
1) We are never told why Vaan tags along with Ashe, why Basch fiercely protects Dalmasca, what resistance leaqder is Ashe that doesn't even know her uncle is on her side, etc..

The opening of the game is all about how Vaan is trying to "help Dalmasca" i... Did you want him to come out say specifically why so you can add it to your "telegraphing the plot" argument ?

Vaan actually says he has no reason twice: "I don't want to just be left behind here" in Bhujerba and later to Balthier's question of "what do you want" he answers "you know..."

I do admire your talent for filling in the blanks for the script writers though

Both comments don't say anything along the lines of "I don't know". The first can be easily used within the context of my reasoning as yours The second comment seems really out of context so I cannot in good faith make a comment on it.

2) A complete stranger to the plot is introduced and never mentioned again (Havharro, Miguelo, Drace...)

Drace (though I regret her role was rather small) ..

Precisely. All those extras had roles that were rather small (Havahro is the Bhujerba resistance leader that meets Vaan). Rikken, Elsa and Raz (the 3 Reddas groupies), Tomaj.... The "rules" say that if you introduce a character you should take time to put him on the story, otherwise you are just disrupting the flow of the narrative and confusing the reader.

On Fargo, they managed to pull it off, introducing a random Japanese friend of the sheriff woman, because they made it a tale about loneliness in big cities. I mean, hitting on an older pregnant woman ? How desperate is that ? It all fit the plot and theme about how big cities and small cities have similar woes deep down, even though it was a random character that was never heard off again. His appearance was the exact "size" to convey that message and exit stage left. Had he shown up again it would just disrupt the story.

On XII we are left wanting more of the characters. The inner struggle within the Empire deserved more than 1 minute cut scene, and so did Reddas friends, the resistance, etc...

I agree that I wanted more but I feel the scenes told you what you really needed to know. Honestly, my commnets on Migelo and Drace easily coincide with your Japanese guy on Fargo. They appeared as a commentary of the state of affairs in both their situations and both were used perfectly in their symbolism.

Havharroh and some of the others you recently mentioned are part of RPG writing conventions. Reddas' cronies are just really there for amusement, Tomaj on the other hand gets a few minor story bits as you move up throught the clan ranks and go through the various hunts.

3) A protagonist is not the leader yet is the main "action" character (Vaan)

I don't necessarily understand what you mean hear I'm afraid...

Do you want a less likely "hero" than Fargo's fat 9 months pregnant older woman ? Yet it works. when you watch the movie you truly believe she is the one investigating the crime and catching the perps

Vaan OTOH is a dream filled younger brother that could turn out to be a hero easily, yet never quite "works". No one leaves the game with the impression he is the leader of anything, that he was the driving force behind the quests, etc...

Again, the "rules" are to make sure your protagonist is believable as hero or villain, not to make a sidekick your protagonist. Takes a lot of skill to pull it off a believable sidekick protagonist.

IMHO the writers on X did that well. Tidus is a sidekick to Auron and Yuna yet you follow his exploits. You truly believe he is the main character. The narration trick helped a lot but the entire script was very well written in this aspect.

Vaan's far from a "main antagonsit and it's been stated several times he's not the main character so this is a mute point entirely. His role ends about a third of the way in the game, just like Lulu's ende five minutes after her introduction

Back on topic... honestly, I think it's obvious to see that Ashe is really the main character of the story. The plot is interwoven between her struggle to choose between smiting her enemies with the wrath of god or using it as a bargaining tool to restore her kingdom. The conflict between personal feelings and duty.

It's not often a main character gets introduced last to your party but then again we are talking about a genre of storytelling that features full fleshed characters that never utter a word in their own respective stories... (Crono and Ryu from Chrono Trigger and Breath of Fire respectively)

Several plot twists that "redraw" the story

This applies to every JRPG on the market, including FFX

True, but some do it better than others

With this I agree with you though I know we are thinking of completely different things...

5) Clichee: Mean cartoonish villain (Vayne), Mad scientist (Dr. Cid), Dumb sidekick (Bergan), Evil twin (Gabi)....

Bergan is your atypical typical fanatical supporter. He believes strongly in Vayne"s methods and ideals and saw the former Emperor as "weak" this is all explained in the Judge meeting where Drace is murdered.

Well, again, the golden rules tell writers to use few or no clichees. And again, some good writers can use 100 clichees and make a masterpiece, while most of us can't manage that. I personally feel XII writers used way too many clichees and it made the story less readable / viewable because of it. The "not so-evil" twin was a good twist but when they added to the rest made it too much IMHO. Felt like eating stale leftovers from way too many stories

On a pure specualtive note: Since Bergan is one of the older Judges, it stands to reason he came from a different era than some of the others. He most likely held this position in the days Vayne killed his brothers and the wars that took Noah and Basch's homeland. He's a hardliner like General McDouglas who lacks the judgement to know when to deal with a situation diplomatically.

I just love how you can fill in the blanks. You should rewrite XII's script someday

I feel you are judging this game too harshly as amny of the cliche's you've mentioned are nowhere near as bad as you make them out to be. Scanning the data that is presented to you it's easy to see how the characters are the way they are (and it's not due to them being cliches:rolleyes2 ) My note on Bergan is a prime example since I based it soley on what I've seen in the game.

Cid, though in the "mad scientist" category is definetly no where near as bat crazy like Hojo was. Rather he's just obsesed with his research and finding the truth. But honestly, if you were in his position and a god came to you to tell you the secrets of the universe, don't you think you would probably place everything else in your life on the back burner?

Vayne only becomes cliche material at the end of the game which is disappointing but nonetheless his acts throughout the rest of the game is far from Saturday morning fare...

]7) Unnecessary, meaningless blood spilling (Resistance ships, almost Rabanastre)

Welcome to the real world... People fight for ideals, homelands, and to protect what's important to them. Our history is a testament to this. It's not "bad writing" when all one has to do is open a history book or even a newspaper and see that it's something that happens everyday

Last time I checked we had no Aeons here The attack on Mt. Bur-Omisace's refugee camp was completely unnecessary to the plot, as were the "mommy, talk to me mommy" heartbreaking NPC dialogs there. It spoiled my enjoyment of that portion of the game, particularly because it is never addressed at the end. Ashe and Larsa never sent relief supplies or anything. Another plot string left untied, raised for the sheer heck of it then abandoned

X had a much darker, bloodier plot. Continuous genocide for 1,000 years ? A land of widows and orphans ? Yet we get to DO something against it and the entire sunny cheery landscape distracts you from the horrible reality the world of Spira faces. On XII the genocide seems like an after thought that no one, not even you, should care about.

You've obviously never finished the Fafnir hunt as it gives closure to that plot thread . Also it was relevant to the plot since the empire did not want the Grand Kiltias to publicly recognize Ashe as the heir to Dalmasca.

Besides, it was obvious from the amount of refugee's forming there that the Kiltias may have to be forced to act on the current state of world affairs and the Empire couldn't have that. Tactically, it was a pretty sound plan.

Also the state of affairs in X always pissed me off. I don't necessarily like authority and the vast majority of the land mass giving into the Yevon faith (I'm a firm believer in "God helps those who help themselves") made me eventually wish Sin would wipe them out. I hate mindless "sheep" more than anything and ultimately, I never felt Spira deserved to be saved. Of all the FF wolrds, X deserved what it got the most...

8) Ambiguous morals (Occuria are jerks, Dr. Cid is a bad guy but his plight is sympathetic)

Once again, welcome to the real world... Despite what most people think, the world is not "black or white" but just shades of gray...

Ambiguous morals are not really a story writing no-no, in fact most times it leads to stronger storytelling

You are correct. But writing a story with ambiguous morals is harder to get it to work. I feel the XII script writers fell short on it. They presented blacks and whites and left up to you to make it "gray". A better writer would have made a masterpiece with all the nuances of the plot arch. The Occuria being jerks and Cid/ Vayne's alleged quest to free humanity from them was a very creative idea and it was very poorly explored IMHO.

So was the sibling relationship of Vayne and Larsa. Or Gramis change of heart with old age... So many plot openings left untied / unexplored.

IMHO they cut the XII script development in half at SE. You can clearly see many ideas added for later fleshing out that were never finished.

Though we'll never truly know how the script was done for XII, I feel the grey area is obvious in the amount of realism the story is steeped in. The choices that Ashe had to make, Balthiers conflict between forgetting his past or finding closure. Baschs duty, and even the situation with the war between the resistance and the empire. The grey is there you have to look for it. When dealing with morality, a writer cannot simply state what is right and wrong and what is ultimately the grey area... since morality is purely subjective.

My commnets on X's world and it's "waltz of death" with Sin should clearly show that some people have a different views on what is right and what is wrong. In my moral conscience, helping Spira is pointless since the people lack the basic requirements to deserve peace and freedom.

Never have I ever felt that the love story was the defining feature in the FF series. In fact the best ones are the suttle ones like VI/VII's love stories. Though XII did have the potential for several love stories, I for one, am grateful it was not readily present. The series needs to mix it up abit from time to time.

Yeah your right. I never saw the love story as a defining feature but still it was a shame to see all the potential for one existing in the FFXII go to waste.

Well there's always "Revnant Wings". It looks like it may focus on Vaan and Penelo's relationship since the original game gave you the impression they were the only real couple in the game. Though deep down, I still feel that Lady Ashe has a thing for Balthier

[Renmiri]

....conventional writing rules do not completely apply to video games. Nor do they really apply to comic books, movies, and TV shows..

I was using movie script writing rules, as evidenced by choice of examples: Fargo, Syd Field

Still, we've jousted enough about XII for you to know I'm not just condemning the story based on some "rules". I truly feel it is weak and damages the game quality overall.

It was a terrible movie Renmiri . "Search your feelings... you know it to be true!"

I like the techniques used, so maybe that is the reason I enjoyed the movie. But come on, Willian H Macy and Frances McDormand are BAD ACTORS ? By what standard ?!?!?

Both comments don't say anything along the lines of "I don't know". The first can be easily used within the context of my reasoning as yours The second comment seems really out of context so I cannot in good faith make a comment on it.

??? You lost me there ???

I agree that I wanted more but I feel the scenes told you what you really needed to know. Honestly, my commnets on Migelo and Drace easily coincide with your Japanese guy on Fargo. They appeared as a commentary of the state of affairs in both their situations and both were used perfectly in their symbolism

Fair enough, we disagree.

Vaan's far from a "main antagonsit and it's been stated several times he's not the main character...His role ends about a third of the way in the game, just like Lulu's ende five minutes after her introduction

Lulu isn't the one you guide through towns and the main character on your party. Vaan is. And his role ends in the first 1/3 of the game. That was a weird choice and disrupted the plot. Ergo, bad writing.

The fact that you and many fans discounted the faux pas and made Ashe, Larsa or whomever your protagonist doesn't make it good writing. It makes you and the other fans very forgiving and creative readers.

With this I agree with you though I know we are thinking of completely different things...

hihi I agreee

Vayne only becomes cliche material at the end of the game which is disappointing...

Wow, you agree with me about Vayne's cheesines in the end ?

You've obviously never finished the Fafnir hunt as it gives closure to that plot thread

I did. What happened there that closed the thread ? The Viera liking humans more ?

Also it was relevant to the plot since the empire ...

So when Larsa assumed the leadership of the empire the first thing he did was make it right, right ? NOPE. He kept on writing letters to Penelo like all those dead refugees were just cannon fodder. Or "diaposable plot dramatic effects". Bad writing!!!!

Also the state of affairs in X always pissed me off. I don't necessarily like authority and the vast majority of the land mass giving into the Yevon faith (I'm a firm believer in "God helps those who help themselves") made me eventually wish Sin would wipe them out. I hate mindless "sheep" more than anything and ultimately, I never felt Spira deserved to be saved. Of all the FF wolrds, X deserved what it got the most...

Oh, so your morals gave you a bias against X then ?

Pot, meet kettle

My commnets on X's world and it's "waltz of death" with Sin should clearly show that some people have a different views on what is right and what is wrong. In my moral conscience, helping Spira is pointless since the people lack the basic requirements to deserve peace and freedom.

Here's were we differ, I think. I hated Fargo's characters but I admired the writing and acting skill it took to tell the story. I don't necessarily think any person deserves to die but I agree the people in Spira were on the low end of the deserving to be saved scale. Yet I liked the game.

And though I almost sided with Vayne & Cid, since the Occuria were pretty annoying, I was happy to see Larsa and Ashe get their respective thrones. My dislike of the story has nothing to do with my feelings for what is right or wrong, or for each character. It has more to do with the way the story was told.

[Wolf Kanno]

....conventional writing rules do not completely apply to video games. Nor do they really apply to comic books, movies, and TV shows..

I was using movie script writing rules, as evidenced by choice of examples: Fargo, Syd Field

Still, we've jousted enough about XII for you to know I'm not just condemning the story based on some "rules". I truly feel it is weak and damages the game quality overall.

No, I know that pretty well. Of anything this has just been a rather amusing discussion. It's interesting to point out the fact that VG have their own literary style to them.

It was a terrible movie Renmiri . "Search your feelings... you know it to be true!"

I like the techniques used, so maybe that is the reason I enjoyed the movie. But come on, Willian H Macy and Frances McDormand are BAD ACTORS ? By what standard ?!?!?

I don't feel they did a good job in the movie, though I'll be honest and tell you that I don't care for either as actors. Same with Sean Penn and Tom Hanks who are easily the two most overrated actors in Hollywood. But I'll end my off topic rant...

Both comments don't say anything along the lines of "I don't know". The first can be easily used within the context of my reasoning as yours The second comment seems really out of context so I cannot in good faith make a comment on it.

??? You lost me there ???

My point is that the line "I don't want to be left behind here" can be interpreted differently depending on how you see the story. It seems to me like you took it literally and thought of it as Vaan trying to justify why he's there. On the other hand... I see it as Vaan referencing his dislike of the empire since I took his past history in the game into account so it seems to me like he's symbolically saying "I want to make a difference"

Was that better?

I agree that I wanted more but I feel the scenes told you what you really needed to know. Honestly, my commnets on Migelo and Drace easily coincide with your Japanese guy on Fargo. They appeared as a commentary of the state of affairs in both their situations and both were used perfectly in their symbolism

Fair enough, we disagree.

We've known this for months dear

Vaan's far from a "main antagonsit and it's been stated several times he's not the main character...His role ends about a third of the way in the game, just like Lulu's ende five minutes after her introduction

Lulu isn't the one you guide through towns and the main character on your party. Vaan is. And his role ends in the first 1/3 of the game. That was a weird choice and disrupted the plot. Ergo, bad writing.

The fact that you and many fans discounted the faux pas and made Ashe, Larsa or whomever your protagonist doesn't make it good writing. It makes you and the other fans very forgiving and creative readers.

Just because he's the guy you control "in towns" does not automatically mean the character is the main character. Chances are, it was the programmers cutting corners since the game easily pushes the PS2 to it's technological limits. The fact is, if you could change your main character in towns, this would be a moot point and quickly devolve into the obnoxious FFVI debate of who the main character is:rolleyes2

I'll give a hint to those who don't know... (SPOILER)THERE IS NO MAIN CHARACTER IN FFVI SO STOP BRINGING IT UP!!!

The fact is, from a story standpoint. Ashe is the most likely candidate for main character status; since the games plot completely revolves around her struggle to restore Dalmasca and get revenge on the empire. It's not odd for a game to have no main protagonist, not counting the NES era FFs, only four games in the series can honestly be said to have main characters (IV,VII,VIII,and X) whereas the others really don't have a defining main character from a plotline standpoint.

Vayne only becomes cliche material at the end of the game which is disappointing...

Wow, you agree with me about Vayne's cheesines in the end ?

I agree he ends on a bad note and it is one of the few story issues I do have with the game. I think if he had gone the way I thought he was going (doing this all for Larsa's sake) then he could have been one of the defining villains in the series.

You've obviously never finished the Fafnir hunt as it gives closure to that plot thread

I did. What happened there that closed the thread ? The Viera liking humans more ?

Remeber, she takes over the temple and begins helping the refugees who in turn inspires the people to finally move on with their lives and work towards restoring the temple and the order. Remember unlike previous RPGs, FFXII's NPCs actually have something relevant to say. Besides, the music in the temple changes back to it's original theme signifying a transformation of the location.

Also it was relevant to the plot since the empire ...

So when Larsa assumed the leadership of the empire the first thing he did was make it right, right ? NOPE. He kept on writing letters to Penelo like all those dead refugees were just cannon fodder. Or "diaposable plot dramatic effects". Bad writing!!!!

We don't know that for certain, remember, a year passed after the ending so god only knows what the political spectrum may look like at this point. From what you get for finishing the Fafnir hunt, you get the impression the place was on the road to recovery so one can assume it's better. Remember that FFX doesn't reveal what happened to Kilikia until the terrible sequel

Also the state of affairs in X always pissed me off. I don't necessarily like authority and the vast majority of the land mass giving into the Yevon faith (I'm a firm believer in "God helps those who help themselves") made me eventually wish Sin would wipe them out. I hate mindless "sheep" more than anything and ultimately, I never felt Spira deserved to be saved. Of all the FF wolrds, X deserved what it got the most...

Oh, so your morals gave you a bias against X then ?

Pot, meet kettle

Not really, well my second play thru actually... Of anything, it's one of many factors that make me dislike the game just like XII's parallels to historical and modern events bother you.

My commnets on X's world and it's "waltz of death" with Sin should clearly show that some people have a different views on what is right and what is wrong. In my moral conscience, helping Spira is pointless since the people lack the basic requirements to deserve peace and freedom.

Here's were we differ, I think. I hated Fargo's characters but I admired the writing and acting skill it took to tell the story. I don't necessarily think any person deserves to die but I agree the people in Spira were on the low end of the deserving to be saved scale. Yet I liked the game.

And though I almost sided with Vayne & Cid, since the Occuria were pretty annoying, I was happy to see Larsa and Ashe get their respective thrones. My dislike of the story has nothing to do with my feelings for what is right or wrong, or for each character. It has more to do with the way the story was told.

I never accused your morals being the reason you disliked the game, sorry for the confusion. My point was that you felt the story was that moral ambiguity is pretty subjective and no one can truly write a good story based in gray areas. People will always have different opinions. The closest I've seen in the RPG community is in Xenogears and Tactics.

I personally enjoyed the writing style of XII but it might be due to the fact it's not far from my own style.