So I just finished and I am a little confused... (WHOLE THREAD IS SPOILER)

[Wolf Kanno]

....conventional writing rules do not completely apply to video games. Nor do they really apply to comic books, movies, and TV shows..

I was using movie script writing rules, as evidenced by choice of examples: Fargo, Syd Field

Still, we've jousted enough about XII for you to know I'm not just condemning the story based on some "rules". I truly feel it is weak and damages the game quality overall.

No, I know that pretty well. Of anything this has just been a rather amusing discussion. It's interesting to point out the fact that VG have their own literary style to them.

It was a terrible movie Renmiri . "Search your feelings... you know it to be true!"

I like the techniques used, so maybe that is the reason I enjoyed the movie. But come on, Willian H Macy and Frances McDormand are BAD ACTORS ? By what standard ?!?!?

I don't feel they did a good job in the movie, though I'll be honest and tell you that I don't care for either as actors. Same with Sean Penn and Tom Hanks who are easily the two most overrated actors in Hollywood. But I'll end my off topic rant...

Both comments don't say anything along the lines of "I don't know". The first can be easily used within the context of my reasoning as yours The second comment seems really out of context so I cannot in good faith make a comment on it.

??? You lost me there ???

My point is that the line "I don't want to be left behind here" can be interpreted differently depending on how you see the story. It seems to me like you took it literally and thought of it as Vaan trying to justify why he's there. On the other hand... I see it as Vaan referencing his dislike of the empire since I took his past history in the game into account so it seems to me like he's symbolically saying "I want to make a difference"

Was that better?

I agree that I wanted more but I feel the scenes told you what you really needed to know. Honestly, my commnets on Migelo and Drace easily coincide with your Japanese guy on Fargo. They appeared as a commentary of the state of affairs in both their situations and both were used perfectly in their symbolism

Fair enough, we disagree.

We've known this for months dear

Vaan's far from a "main antagonsit and it's been stated several times he's not the main character...His role ends about a third of the way in the game, just like Lulu's ende five minutes after her introduction

Lulu isn't the one you guide through towns and the main character on your party. Vaan is. And his role ends in the first 1/3 of the game. That was a weird choice and disrupted the plot. Ergo, bad writing.

The fact that you and many fans discounted the faux pas and made Ashe, Larsa or whomever your protagonist doesn't make it good writing. It makes you and the other fans very forgiving and creative readers.

Just because he's the guy you control "in towns" does not automatically mean the character is the main character. Chances are, it was the programmers cutting corners since the game easily pushes the PS2 to it's technological limits. The fact is, if you could change your main character in towns, this would be a moot point and quickly devolve into the obnoxious FFVI debate of who the main character is:rolleyes2

I'll give a hint to those who don't know... (SPOILER)THERE IS NO MAIN CHARACTER IN FFVI SO STOP BRINGING IT UP!!!

The fact is, from a story standpoint. Ashe is the most likely candidate for main character status; since the games plot completely revolves around her struggle to restore Dalmasca and get revenge on the empire. It's not odd for a game to have no main protagonist, not counting the NES era FFs, only four games in the series can honestly be said to have main characters (IV,VII,VIII,and X) whereas the others really don't have a defining main character from a plotline standpoint.

Vayne only becomes cliche material at the end of the game which is disappointing...

Wow, you agree with me about Vayne's cheesines in the end ?

I agree he ends on a bad note and it is one of the few story issues I do have with the game. I think if he had gone the way I thought he was going (doing this all for Larsa's sake) then he could have been one of the defining villains in the series.

You've obviously never finished the Fafnir hunt as it gives closure to that plot thread

I did. What happened there that closed the thread ? The Viera liking humans more ?

Remeber, she takes over the temple and begins helping the refugees who in turn inspires the people to finally move on with their lives and work towards restoring the temple and the order. Remember unlike previous RPGs, FFXII's NPCs actually have something relevant to say. Besides, the music in the temple changes back to it's original theme signifying a transformation of the location.

Also it was relevant to the plot since the empire ...

So when Larsa assumed the leadership of the empire the first thing he did was make it right, right ? NOPE. He kept on writing letters to Penelo like all those dead refugees were just cannon fodder. Or "diaposable plot dramatic effects". Bad writing!!!!

We don't know that for certain, remember, a year passed after the ending so god only knows what the political spectrum may look like at this point. From what you get for finishing the Fafnir hunt, you get the impression the place was on the road to recovery so one can assume it's better. Remember that FFX doesn't reveal what happened to Kilikia until the terrible sequel

Also the state of affairs in X always pissed me off. I don't necessarily like authority and the vast majority of the land mass giving into the Yevon faith (I'm a firm believer in "God helps those who help themselves") made me eventually wish Sin would wipe them out. I hate mindless "sheep" more than anything and ultimately, I never felt Spira deserved to be saved. Of all the FF wolrds, X deserved what it got the most...

Oh, so your morals gave you a bias against X then ?

Pot, meet kettle

Not really, well my second play thru actually... Of anything, it's one of many factors that make me dislike the game just like XII's parallels to historical and modern events bother you.

My commnets on X's world and it's "waltz of death" with Sin should clearly show that some people have a different views on what is right and what is wrong. In my moral conscience, helping Spira is pointless since the people lack the basic requirements to deserve peace and freedom.

Here's were we differ, I think. I hated Fargo's characters but I admired the writing and acting skill it took to tell the story. I don't necessarily think any person deserves to die but I agree the people in Spira were on the low end of the deserving to be saved scale. Yet I liked the game.

And though I almost sided with Vayne & Cid, since the Occuria were pretty annoying, I was happy to see Larsa and Ashe get their respective thrones. My dislike of the story has nothing to do with my feelings for what is right or wrong, or for each character. It has more to do with the way the story was told.

I never accused your morals being the reason you disliked the game, sorry for the confusion. My point was that you felt the story was that moral ambiguity is pretty subjective and no one can truly write a good story based in gray areas. People will always have different opinions. The closest I've seen in the RPG community is in Xenogears and Tactics.

I personally enjoyed the writing style of XII but it might be due to the fact it's not far from my own style.