So I just finished and I am a little confused... (WHOLE THREAD IS SPOILER)

[Desert Merchant]

Ok so I just finished the game and I have heard both complaints and good things about the game. A lot of what people are saying about how the story is negative is legit I mean when you only play the game 2or 3 days a week its very hard to follow the story when there is probably 2 minutes of cutscene for every 2 hours of dungeon exploring. Keep in mind I am not knocking the game I still enjoyed the story just hard to keep up with its complexity when it was so sparse.

(SPOILERS KEEP IN MIND DONT READ IF YOU DONT WANT SPOILERS)

Which brings me to the point of this thread. I am very confused as to the nature of the antognist characters are they good/evil? I know that you are going to say that its a war and both sides are neither good nor evil but here is my problem. Ok so Vayne seemed like a good guy at the beginning of the game. His speech in Rabanastre seemed convincing which leads me to believe that origanally he was a good character and also the fact that Larsa supported him through much of his BS also leads me to think that he is a good hearted individual. So I guess my question is... Was he a good character who was just corrupted by Venat? because thats what the story makes it seems like... same goes for Cid. I know he was controlled by Venat but was he origanally such an evil character?

Which brings me to my next point... (sorry people try and follow along) So if indeed they were just being controlled by Venat then why were their evil morals supported by the Archadian empire (such as the judges and their army) unless indeed they were evil too. I mean I know they have to follow their orders but they have to understand that Vayne was slowly losing it and reguardless of him being a leader why would they do the things they did, because as soon as you dispose of Vayne it seems like everyone is on the same side. So are all the antagonists in the game just blindly following orders or do you think that had the same beliefs as Vayne... I am so confused

[Roto13]

Nobody is being controlled by Venat. Venat wants to help humanity take control of it's own destiny. Dr. Cid and Vayne agree. There's not really anything wrong with that. Vayne isn't such a bad guy, and neither are Vaan and friends, who want to avoid a war. That's the awesome thing about the story in this game. It leaves a bad taste in your mouth after you accomplish your goal. :P

[Renmiri]

Vayne isn't such a bad guy ?!?!?
Killing two brothers and his father aren't bad enough for you ? How about killing people who have just surrendered ? How about driving the Bahamut to Rabanastre to obliterate the city ?

Face it, Vayne lost it. He might have started with good intentions but in the end he lost it.

Which brings me to the point that XII is badly written. Vayne is shown to us as a guy who wants to be fair and nice to Rabanastre and wants to free humanity of the Occuria then - all of a sudden - he turns into a cartoon villain madman bent on genocide. Like it was time to have a villain and he was handy. Not believable at all.

[Diango12]

I doubt Vayne was going to annihilate the entire population of Rabanstre, devastate it yes but not complete destruction. His goal was war, to burn out the flame lit candle of strife with a kindled fire of his own melting the wax foundation (I know I played FFXII to much -_-).

And I have to argue Rabanastre did not surrender while its true the city itself submitted to Archadia's rule the resistance movement based within its walls did not. Hence the need to go and bring it to its knees- Being an imperial empire and all.

I think in the end for someone with so much responsibility of having to bear the weight of challenging the Gods to there self appointed rule he kept himself stable enough. He killed his brothers and possibly murdered his father but you can't say he did it out of spite or that he didn’t feel remorse for his actions. He was a man with alot on his hands and the fate of mankind rested solely in his palm if only his ambition was successful.

[Sophie Peithos]

The motivations of the antagonists are pretty poorly explained. Specifically, the game never really delves into why Venat would betray the other Occurians or why there was any need to relinquish Occurian control to begin with. I mean, they where obviously pretty manipulative but we’re given no evidence within the game that their rule was particularly detrimental, nor that humes could do a better job. If we were given a genuine reason as to why it was necessary, I might have been able to consider the whole “Wrestling Ivalice back into the hands of man” jazz more than convenient idealistic nonsense.

[Neo-Omega Mk XXV]

Vayne isn't such a bad guy ?!?!?
Killing two brothers and his father aren't bad enough for you ? How about killing people who have just surrendered ? How about driving the Bahamut to Rabanastre to obliterate the city ?

Face it, Vayne lost it. He might have started with good intentions but in the end he lost it.

Which brings me to the point that XII is badly written. Vayne is shown to us as a guy who wants to be fair and nice to Rabanastre and wants to free humanity of the Occuria then - all of a sudden - he turns into a cartoon villain madman bent on genocide. Like it was time to have a villain and he was handy. Not believable at all.

Vayne's intentions are never made totally clear, so it didn't appear to me that he "suddenly becomes a cartoon bad guy". For all we know Vayne's speech in Rabanastre near the beginning was merely a ruse, and his vicious, scheming side is shown from early on anyway. Certainly I never get the impression that his plan was simply to free humanity from the Occuria for the sole benefit of humanity. He may have wanted that, while at the same time taking advantage of the situation to maximize his own power. Or perhaps was willing to go to great lengths to achieve this "liberation", believing that any ends justify the means. This is hardly rare in real human history - there was much talk during the cold war of "saving western christian civilization/democracy/freedom from communism", while the reality for many people on the recieving end of this "salvation" was death squads, torture, disappearance and carpet bombing (no, I'm not interested in discussing politics here). The whole plot is quite open ended and morally ambiguous, perhaps excessively so for a video game.

[Renmiri]

The motivations of the antagonists are pretty poorly explained. Specifically, the game never really delves into why Venat would betray the other Occurians or why there was any need to relinquish Occurian control to begin with. I mean, they where obviously pretty manipulative but we’re given no evidence within the game that their rule was particularly detrimental, nor that humes could do a better job. If we were given a genuine reason as to why it was necessary, I might have been able to consider the whole “Wrestling Ivalice back into the hands of man” jazz more than convenient idealistic nonsense.

Precisely!! All the game says is that they intervened - once - 1,400 years ago to give power to Raithwal, who - gasp - brought peace and prosperity to Ivalice.

We should have such meddling Gods here on Earth!!!

The whole plot is quite open ended and morally ambiguous, perhaps excessively so for a video game.

It seems we agree. Actually the main game writer said so in an interview: It was his aim that good guys had flaws and bad guys showed kindness and specifically that he did not take sides on the conflict, leaving it for the player.

An interesting idea that fell flat on it's face: In the end the game needed a villain and all the ambiguity and "kindness" evaporated from Vayne, making him mad and evil as any villain on a cheesy James Bond rerun. You find hard to believe Larsa was so fond of THAT jerk of a brother. Or that Vayne fooled his dad, Ondorre and others for so long.

[Setzer Gabianni]

An interesting idea that fell flat on it's face: In the end the game needed a villain and all the ambiguity and "kindness" evaporated from Vayne, making him mad and evil as any villain on a cheesy James Bond rerun. You find hard to believe Larsa was so fond of THAT jerk of a brother. Or that Vayne fooled his dad, Ondorre and others for so long.

To compare him with other villains is kinda stupid. He was manipulative, but I would not say evil to the extent that you seem to be making him out to be. You could see Vayne as a villain, you could see Dr. Cid as a villain. It's like many people in power today, even in previous FF games - they use whatever tactics they can to get what they want, often exposing a dark side to themselves, turning them into wicked dictators. However, with Vayne especially, while he yet remained a villain, he was not hell bent on making every body suffer. His main objective was to free Humes history from Occurian control, and become Dynast King right? Poor sod managed to do it, but it cost him his own life, and he did not become King. It would have been interesting to see however, how he would have become if he ever became Dynast King, but that's never going to happen now - heroes must always triumph.

Vayne loved his brother, always has done - I'm sure that deep down inside, they had a great bond, strained by events through the game unfortunately. Though that may not have been obvious to many, during the last battles you fought with Vayne, Vayne asked Gabranth to protect Larsa. Larsa, despite what Vayne had done, could not stop loving his older sibling. Respect? Was it out of that? Or was it because he felt as if Vayne had been taken in by the power that had long influenced him? He tried hard to make peace, and thought something could be resolved without having to face further death of loved ones, or the impending threat of war.

Lastly, you find it hard to believe he could have fooled everyone for so long about his plans? Isn't that what makes a good villain?
EDIT on this part: Just goes to show he was a clever young man who knew what he was doing for the most part.

I tried to make this an intelligent post, so don't take the piss out of me ._.

[farplaner]

Vayne's intentions are never made totally clear, so it didn't appear to me that he "suddenly becomes a cartoon bad guy". For all we know Vayne's speech in Rabanastre near the beginning was merely a ruse, and his vicious, scheming side is shown from early on anyway.

Exactly! Is no one here familiar with the game of politics? Vayne put on a facade in Rabanastre in order to gain the trust of the population. His intention was domination- I don't think it's any more complicated than that. I mean, is the name "Vayne" not a clear enough clue to his character?

As far as Vanat- who knows! I agree that the whole Occuria thing was left wide open. I mean, who the hell are the Occuria anyway?? For all we know, Vanat was ousted and decided to get revenge by helping to empower the Humes.

I think XII had a good idea in treating "heroes and villains" as more than one-dimensional. True, the developers need more practice with the concept, but it's a step in the right direction- it adds depth to the characters.

I think the strongest example of this is in some of the Judges. Especially, what's-her-name (sorry, can't remember) who speaks out against Vayne after his father is found dead.

[Lynx]

The motivations of the antagonists are pretty poorly explained. Specifically, the game never really delves into why Venat would betray the other Occurians or why there was any need to relinquish Occurian control to begin with. I mean, they where obviously pretty manipulative but we’re given no evidence within the game that their rule was particularly detrimental, nor that humes could do a better job. If we were given a genuine reason as to why it was necessary, I might have been able to consider the whole “Wrestling Ivalice back into the hands of man” jazz more than convenient idealistic nonsense.

in this game you really need to realize everyone has there own personality and thoughts even the Occurians. one might not agree with the rest so it goes and does what it wants.

Venat wanted to take the power away from the Occurians. maybe it had its own intentions besides just give power to life on invalice. maybe it wanted to get rid of the occurians so it could have control over the planet and to do so it manipulates the minds of 2 major parts of the ruleing empire. Vayne and cid.

as for vaynes beginning speach its nice to see that even villains have there nice side but it was more then liekly jsut a trick to gain the trust of the people (polotics). Vayne kills his 2 brothers and his father and the senate too i think (corruption in polotics) as for the judges they dont all agree with Vayne as seen. everyone has there own personality and views. also we cant really think of vayne and venat as good guys because they decided to attack a helpless rabanaste.

[Sophie Peithos]

in this game you really need to realize everyone has there own personality and thoughts even the Occurians. one might not agree with the rest so it goes and does what it wants.

Venat wanted to take the power away from the Occurians. maybe it had its own intentions besides just give power to life on invalice. maybe it wanted to get rid of the occurians so it could have control over the planet and to do so it manipulates the minds of 2 major parts of the ruleing empire. Vayne and cid.

My point is that they never explain said motives. That as such is a sign of poor story telling.

[Skyblade]

Actually, Vayne's duplicitous nature in his political dealings surfaces long before the speech in Rabanastre. Have you guys forgotten his performance for Reks? He made an extremely well crafted act that would allow him to kill a monarch and claim total sovereignty over a kingdom, with a minimum amount of the blame falling on himself. He was, after all, merely bringing a regicide to justice and stepping in to bring order to a country that had lost its ruler. He then has Marquis Ondore announce the death of Princess Ashelia in another excellent ploy to both solidify his own position and undercut his opponents. Ashe is cut off from her birthright, being unable to reclaim her crown without proof, Marquis Ondore can be blackmailed into silence, and Vayne can gain control of Dalmasca with a minimum of friction, since there are supposedly no surviving members of its royal family. He then moves in to become consul of Rabanastre, a move which he admits he had to wait for much longer than he had wanted. This allows him to give a lovely speech to win over the people of Rabanastre (and during that entire speech, I was thinking "wow, this guy knows how to play up to a crowd") and lure the Resistance into a trap. His next political moves are towards the Gran Kiltias, who becomes a threat, since he had the power to confirm Ashe's identity, pass information on to the Rozzarians and to Larsa, and shelter a good many of his enemies. So he has his forces move on Mount Bur-Omisace and kill the Gran Kiltias and reclaim Larsa. His entire career from the beginning has been filled with acts of treachery and cunning. He uses political maneuverings to divide his foes and weaken their support systems, while strengthing his own power base. His actions at home are much the same. First he kills his older brothers, then his father. He places the blame for his father's death on the Senators, the only real opponents to his power left in Archadia, thus removing them from the playing field and securing power for himself. While I have not yet finished the game (I'm heading to the Draklor Laboratories after the death of the Gran Kiltias), even at this point I have yet to see any action by Vayne that is not an attempt to increase his own power base. He didn't suddenly become a villain, he has quite clearly been one from the very beginning.

[Lynx]

in this game you really need to realize everyone has there own personality and thoughts even the Occurians. one might not agree with the rest so it goes and does what it wants.

Venat wanted to take the power away from the Occurians. maybe it had its own intentions besides just give power to life on invalice. maybe it wanted to get rid of the occurians so it could have control over the planet and to do so it manipulates the minds of 2 major parts of the ruleing empire. Vayne and cid.

My point is that they never explain said motives. That as such is a sign of poor story telling.

it ads to the realisticness (if thats a word) of the story though. peoples motives aren't always revealed sometimes they just dwell in the back of the mind.

but i do see your point this is a story and we would like to have things explained. instead of working off of assumptions.

[Renmiri]

My point is that they never explain said motives. That as such is a sign of poor story telling.

Thanks!!! I've been saying it the same for ages around here!

but i do see your point this is a story and we would like to have things explained. instead of working off of assumptions.

That is the second writing flaw. The little they tell us is so blatant that it is like "look here idiot!", not subtle at all. For example:

1) Vayne wants to be a sky pirate because he wants to run away from the pain of Reks dying. He flat out tells us. No subtlety or mistery implied. And then he fogets it!!! No more pain for Reks, no more "I wanna be a sky pirate" until the very last scene.

2) The Senate puts Emperor Grammis in a bind: Chose between reigning in Vayne or disobeying his country's law. Pretty obvious scene but the writer finds the need to make Grammis say it out aloud.

So many more examples of "telegraphing the plot" I can barely count. Yet what is real interesting, i.e. where each character is coming from, remains completely hidden and you have to chose your preferred answer. Setzer chose a noble motive for Vayne, most of us saw a petty dictator wanabe. But none of us has any inkling of what the writer aimed for. Because he said it himself, he aimed for nothing.

[Lynx]

. But none of us has any inkling of what the writer aimed for. Because he said it himself, he aimed for nothing.

well with no real goals i think he still was able to create one good story.

ive noticed that some people say they left too much to guessing and some say people would say things to be blatantly obvious. which kinda proves that there will never be a game that everyone loves.

but as for leaveing too mcuh for guessing all FF's do this it is a flaw in writeing and yet i still think they are the best games out there.