That makes sense.
That makes sense.
The below sentence is true.
The above sentence is false.
I'll admit that I was radical last time I posted on this subject and I apologise. I do have a answer to the above...
---------------------------------------------------------------------
The Tale Of The Magic Rock Apes
Okay, now sit down now, boys and girls - it's story time! Shhhh.... Once upon a time, billions of years ago, there was nothing. Suddenly, magically, the nothing exploded into something. That something is called hydrogen. Can you say "hydrogen?" I knew you could. This hydrogen eventually cooled down enough to condense into solid rock. It was magic rock. Inert and lifeless, but still magical. And then, magically, water formed in the sky above the rock. The waters rained on the rock for, oh, let's say billions of years. Some of the rock broke down into minerals, and these minerals washed into a pool of water.
Then one day some of these minerals magically formed into a kind of goo in the pool of water. Can you say "goo?" I knew you could. Well do you know what happened then? That's right! The goo magically became ALIVE. So anyway, this bit of magic goo magically found something to eat. Then, magically, it found another bit of magic goo to marry, and they had a whole bunch of magical little goos. Eventually - millions of years later - some of this goo grew up into all the plants and animals in the world around us. If it's alive, it came from that first bit of magic goo! Well, more time went on. Finally some of this goo magically evolved - can you say "evolved?" I knew you could - some of this goo magically evolved upwards and upwards, growing ever more advanced, bigger, stronger, smarter, until it became a kind of magical hairless ape with thumbs.
And do you know who those apes are? That's right! They're YOU and ME! We are the magic rock apes! And you know what else? Someday we'll evolve enough that we'll become the God we all know doesn't exist. Now take a nap.
This may seem rather (Ignorant) to many ppl here but the fact is that schools still teach this. Any museum I go to will say the same thing.
Seeing eye by chance?
Charles Darwin expressed confidence that natural selection could explain the development of the eye; but how does this confidence stand up in the light of reason? Today, we are in curious intellectual situation of allowing only naturalistic explanations into public schools. This is done in spite of the fact that the alternative (creation or intelligent design) more adequately explains the observation. It would take a miraculous number of design changes to transform a light sensitive patch into an eyeball. Furthermore, each change would have to be coded onto the DNA of the "new" creature in order for the change to pass to the next generation. It has never been explained how this could have happened. Each new feature would need to be independently useful or natural selection would not have allowed the new creature to live.
-An eyeball with no retina would be a tumor, not an improvement to be passed on to the next generation.
-An eyeball without a focusing lens would be worthless except as a light detector.
-An eyeball without a functioning optic nerve to carry the signal to the brain would be worthless.
-An eyeball without the perfect balance of fluid pressure would explode or implode
-An eyeball without a brain designed to interpret the signals would be sightless
It is beyond credibility that chance mutations could produce any of these changes, let alone all of them at once. In Darwin's time the complex design of the eyeball was forceful evidence in favor of creation. Our more advanced knowledge of the intricate design of the eyes provide even stronger evidence for creation.
For instance, as we travel down the "evolutionary ladder" to examine those creatures which were supposedly among the earliest life forms on the planet, would it not be logical to expect their eyes to be less complex? Contrary to this expectation, among the lowest rock layers are found multi-cellular creatures called trilobites which have an extremely sophisticated optical system. Some trilobites had a compound eye placed in such a way as to allow 360o vision.
Compound eyes are ideally suited for detecting minute motions and some trilobites eyes were specially designed to correct for spherical aberration allowing a clear image from each facet. Even more impressive, each lens allowed for undistorted underwater imaging depth perception. Thus, one of the "earliest" in vertebrate creatures had clear underwater vision through eyes which could detect both depth and imperceptibility small motions in all directions simultaneously. Yet this creature was not at the end of the supposed evolutionary line but near the beginning! Yet no direct ancestor to this incredible complex creature (or its eye) has been found.
The complexity of eyes still argue for the reality of instantaneous formation by an incredibly intelligent designer. There is neither a fossil record showing that the eye evolved nor any testable observations explain how it could possible happen. With these facts in mind, why do we allow textbook selection which leaves out both the problems with evolution and the evidence for intelligent design? This is indoctrination, not education.
now I have some Questions.
---------------------------
Questions for Evolutionists
1.Where did the space for the universe come from?
2.Where did matter come from?
3.Where did the laws of the universe come from (gravity, inertia, etc.)?
4.How did matter get so perfectly organized?
5.Where did the energy come from to do all the organizing?
6.When, where, why, and how did life come from non-living matter?
7.When, where, why, and how did life learn to reproduce itself?
8.With what did the first cell capable of sexual reproduction reproduce?
9.Why would any plant or animal want to reproduce more of its kind since this would only make more mouths to feed and decrease the chances of survival? (Does the individual have a drive to survive, or the species? How do you explain this?)
10.How can mutations (recombining of the genetic code) create any new, improved varieties? (Recombining English letters will never produce Chinese books.)
11.Is it possible that similarities in design between different animals prove a common Creator instead of a common ancestor?
12.Natural selection only works with the genetic information available and tends only to keep a species stable. How would you explain the increasing complexity in the genetic code that must have occurred if evolution were true?
13.When, where, why, and how did:
-Single-celled plants become multi-celled? (Where are the two and three-celled intermediates?)
-Single-celled animals evolve?
-Fish change to amphibians?
-Amphibians change to reptiles?
-Reptiles change to birds? (The lungs, bones, eyes, reproductive organs, heart, method of locomotion, body covering, etc., are all very different!)
-How did the intermediate forms live?
14.When, where, why, how, and from what did:
-Whales evolve?
-Sea horses evolve?
-Bats evolve?
-Eyes evolve?
-Ears evolve?
-Hair, skin, feathers, scales, nails, claws, etc., evolve?
15.Which evolved first (how, and how long; did it work without the others)?
The digestive system, the food to be digested, the appetite, the ability to find and eat the food, the digestive juices, or the body’s resistance to its own digestive juice (stomach, intestines, etc.)?
The drive to reproduce or the ability to reproduce?
The lungs, the mucus lining to protect them, the throat, or the perfect mixture of gases to be breathed into the lungs?
DNA or RNA to carry the DNA message to cell parts?
The termite or the flagella in its intestines that actually digest the cellulose?
The plants or the insects that live on and pollinate the plants?
The bones, ligaments, tendons, blood supply, or muscles to move the bones?
The nervous system, repair system, or hormone system?
The immune system or the need for it?
16.There are many thousands of examples of symbiosis that defy an evolutionary explanation. Why must we teach students that evolution is the only explanation for these relationships?
17.How would evolution explain mimicry? Did the plants and animals develop mimicry by chance, by their intelligent choice, or by design?
18.When, where, why, and how did man evolve feelings? Love, mercy, guilt, etc. would never evolve in the theory of evolution.
19.*How did photosynthesis evolve?
20.*How did thought evolve?
21.*How did flowering plants evolve, and from what?
22.*What kind of evolutionist are you? Why are you not one of the other eight or ten kinds?
23.What would you have said fifty years ago if I told you I had a living coelacanth in my aquarium?
24.*Is there one clear prediction of macroevolution that has proved true?
25.*What is so scientific about the idea of hydrogen as becoming human?
26.Do you honestly believe that everything came from nothing?
Thank you for your time.
Last edited by Yew-Yevon; 04-20-2007 at 06:18 PM.
Well EXCUSE me! I THOUGHT the topic was, "Do you believe in Evolution"!Originally bespoken by : Mirage
Unlike several religions, evolution isn't something that needs to stick at an early age (read: indoctrination), so I don't see how that has anything to do with anything!
Know what? You right! Evolution does NOT have to stick with you at an early age for you to believe it later on in life, I NEVER said it does!! I said FOR ME, not for you and not for whoever else doesn't believe in evolution, I learned about evolution, I considered it but it wasn't something I thought of often! It's kind of like when I experimented with cigarettes. I tried it a couple of times but it didn't stick with me, even though almost all my friends enjoyed it and offed it to me constantly! I didn't get anything out of it so there was no point in me continuing! Same as evolution, I forget all about it until someone brings it up. It's not something I think of daily or even yearly!!
Kudos to everyone who believes in evolution and/or we are all aliens that will return to space one day! Hell, take me a long! I respect you and whether you have a reasons for believing it or not! And I'm sorry Mirage that my opinion doesn't have "anything to do with anything" on the topic, "Do you believe in Evolution?"
Last edited by Tifa Valentine; 04-20-2007 at 09:02 PM.
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The vertebate eye developed from light-sensitive cells on the surface of the brain. Those patches DID have a use. They helped early life forms know which way the surface of the water was, what time of day it was, and thus the means to avoid direct UV exposure which is harmful. If the human eye had been a product of intelligent design it would have been more intelligently designed. More along the lines of how the squid eye is made.
Do humans live in such conditions that such eyes would be nesisary? The human eye is exreamly complex. Its because of the human eye and we can make illusions so visualy realistic. Nothing about the hunam eye is unintelegent. we have the abillity to know which way surface is and how much depth there is under or above that surface.
That guy in the video, had huge gaps in his logic. He arrived at conclusions with no study, or research. I turned the video off, when he claimed that because we have derived chemicals in our brain, therefore we can not trust our thoughts. How the hell can you go from brain chemicals to then not trusting our thoughts?
I'll listen to someone who has claims, backed by noteable research pubished in one the thousands of academic journals. More probably a comprehensive research that are thousands of publications in scientific journals, that can elude to a single theory. Since that's how things are done. Having a some teen with a webcam, and pictures on the internet, in no way gives anyone credibility to proove something scientifically. Even if he were to try to disprove evolution through theology alone, or even Philosophy, which school of thought was he using? Which bodies of work was he studying? It's one thing, to have an open discusion whether or not "you" personally believe in evolution, for whatever reason. That is perfectly fine. But to try and "proove" it, with no proof is kind ludacris.
Not to say I don't believe in God. I believe in both, if you can believe that. I do believe in evolution, in most areas, specifically the basis of speciation. Through different enviornments, ecotones, organisms derive thier biological niche, thus speciation occurs. Genetic Variation is really the key to all this. The certian indiviuals who have the different traits that make them better suited not to die, they then are the ones to live and pass on that trait that they had to aid in thier survival.
I'm not going to fall in to the whole religion trap except to say; if someone calls me a satanist because I do not worship god I would laugh because I do not believe in either's existence for one cannot co-exist without the other (god is the creator and the devil is the destroyer the exact opposite and anti-god) I believe in going on with the strength I call my own, I will never cry for help or pray for help from a divine/celestial being for I would rather go through life without being called to task or owing those whom we cannot prove exist let alone barter the terms of what they can ask in return for their help/support. (note I don't accept the christian god and devil's existence but I never said I do not accept the existence of all gods.)
This video was laughable unfortunately some people (most commonly found in America's "bible belt" sadly) will believe this crap and accept it as perfect reasons why God exists and the theory of evoloution is BS. To be honest the whole "God exists" debate is a porcelain teapot in space theory that has been knocking around since the dark ages (christianity for a time would have been passed around by word of mouth, chineese whispers anyone? bibles have not existed since the life of christ).
If you're going to compare evolution to peer pressure, then I suppose we have nothing more to discuss.Originally Posted by Tifa Valentine
It wasn't what you believed in that I didn't consider strange, but the reason why you didn't.
I don't think blue is blue because I didn't like that idea when I was in kindergarden :(.
everything is wrapped in gray
i'm focusing on your image
can you hear me in the void?
Does good God also give a reason for giving us back aches or is gravity a work of Satan too?
Seriously, if you listen to those guys Satan created quite a bit more than God could ever imagine.
PS: @Yu-Yevon: You know, I'm not sure how familiar you are with the theory of probability, but statistically speaking in an infinite amount of time (trials) the chance of a living cell appearing, just as a result of chemical reactions, is pretty damn high. i.e. 1. I'm pretty sure that the scientific explanation of that is somewhat more complex, but your 5th year’s junior school probability and the one week of 6th grade chemistry should have taught you that.
PSII: You know, Yevon was a warlock, and enemy of God. Sure you want to bear his name?
Last edited by Discord; 04-20-2007 at 10:35 PM.
I couldn't even get past your first paragraph before I had to facepalm.
Ok, first.
The hydrogen didn't cool down to become rock. Huge numbers of hydrogen particles attracted each other into clumps, until the internal pressure of those clumps became so great that the atoms of hydrogen fused to become helium. It's basic stellar physics. In main sequence stars, that helium and hydrogen further fuse at the end of it's life into carbon, and nitrogen, and other basic elements. When the star's life ends, a large proportion of that matter is thrown out, and the process continues elsewhere. In giant stars, the step goes further, taking the carbon and nitrogen and fusing it into iron, and various other heavier metals. This continues, until the larger molecules clumped together in a stellar accretion disk to form planetary bodies.Okay, now sit down now, boys and girls - it's story time! Shhhh.... Once upon a time, billions of years ago, there was nothing. Suddenly, magically, the nothing exploded into something. That something is called hydrogen. Can you say "hydrogen?" I knew you could. This hydrogen eventually cooled down enough to condense into solid rock. It was magic rock. Inert and lifeless, but still magical. And then, magically, water formed in the sky above the rock. The waters rained on the rock for, oh, let's say billions of years. Some of the rock broke down into minerals, and these minerals washed into a pool of water.
Some of these bodies were dense and massive enough to attract various gasses creating an atmosphere. After a time, the heat from the formation of said bodies dissipates, causing water molecules in their new atmospheres to condense creating oceans and the like.
Again, no. It's simple chemistry. Carbon molecules reacted with the hydrogen, oxygen and nitrogen to create simple proteins, which then combined to become amino acids. These steps have been recreated in a laboratory. The part we cannot create at the moment, is where those amino acids combine into RNA and DNA, although we have gotten to the point where they form into basic celluar "shells" or membranes. Not alive, but definitely close.Then one day some of these minerals magically formed into a kind of goo in the pool of water. Can you say "goo?" I knew you could. Well do you know what happened then? That's right! The goo magically became ALIVE. So anyway, this bit of magic goo magically found something to eat. Then, magically, it found another bit of magic goo to marry, and they had a whole bunch of magical little goos. Eventually - millions of years later - some of this goo grew up into all the plants and animals in the world around us. If it's alive, it came from that first bit of magic goo! Well, more time went on. Finally some of this goo magically evolved - can you say "evolved?" I knew you could - some of this goo magically evolved upwards and upwards, growing ever more advanced, bigger, stronger, smarter, until it became a kind of magical hairless ape with thumbs.
The cells that form went about their business, absorbing sunlight to create energy, and going through mitosis a few times. Eventually, their genetic material went through a few mutations, creating cells that consume other cells to create energy, as well as mutating in such a way as to create a viable multi-celled organism. These became the first insects and simple fish, when continued to develop and mutate. By this time, all the extra oxy the phytoplankton had been pumping out created a breathable atmosphere, and certain fish that had undergone another subtle mutation were able to use their gills or gill-analogues to breathe the atmo, some of which eventually crawled on land, which became the first amphibians.
These amphibians continued to develop, until splitting into two (I know there are more, but this is just for the sake of explanation) groups, one remaining amphibians, the other developing into reptiles. Those reptiles splitting into three other groups. One of which, again, remaining the same with minor changes, the other two undergoing drastic change. Some eventually became birds, while others that had developed fur, became mammals.
The first mammals were small, vole-like creatures, and so were quite capable of surviving the mass extinction following the Cretaceous Period. These mammals again split, some dwelling on the ground, some going into the trees, and this is where we get the predecessor to the apes, monkeys and humans. Some of them came out of the trees to become the proto-humans, Australopithecenes and others, some of the ones who left the trees also became the modern great apes, gorillas, chimps, orangutans, what have you.
As for the issue about eyes, I don't know enough about biology to get into that, but I have to say something about this
There is no fossil record, because the eye tissue is far too soft to fossilize. Also, I must ask, what evidence is there for ID? I have not seen Creationists offer one single bit of evidence for their side, quoting only from the bible, or using assumptions not based anywhere near the Scientific Method.The complexity of eyes still argue for the reality of instantaneous formation by an incredibly intelligent designer. There is neither a fossil record showing that the eye evolved nor any testable observations explain how it could possible happen. With these facts in mind, why do we allow textbook selection which leaves out both the problems with evolution and the evidence for intelligent design? This is indoctrination, not education.
Now, on to the questions:
Questions for Evolutionists
1.Where did the space for the universe come from?
What kind of question is this? It's not like there's some magical barrier just outside our universe. Space is emptiness. It's infinite.
2.Where did matter come from?
We're still trying to figure this out.
3.Where did the laws of the universe come from (gravity, inertia, etc.)?
The laws are intrinsic to matter. Gravity is an electromagnetic force exerted by matter. Inertia is as well, although it also includes friction.
4.How did matter get so perfectly organized?
It's not. Not even close. Don't you know what radiation is? It's essentially atoms falling apart at the seams. Which is why it's dangerous. The parts that are broken off, then smack into other atoms, causing similar reactions.
5.Where did the energy come from to do all the organizing?
Again, it's not organized.
6.When, where, why, and how did life come from non-living matter?
The closest explanation we have is the one I used above, about amino acids combining. We still don't know exactly.
7.When, where, why, and how did life learn to reproduce itself?
Again, mutation. The original cells mutated, which allowed them to split into two separate organisms.
8.With what did the first cell capable of sexual reproduction reproduce?
Cells don't reproduce sexually.
9.Why would any plant or animal want to reproduce more of its kind since this would only make more mouths to feed and decrease the chances of survival? (Does the individual have a drive to survive, or the species? How do you explain this?)
I myself only have a basic understanding of biology, and evolutionary theory. *is a physicist* So I can't answer this one.
10.How can mutations (recombining of the genetic code) create any new, improved varieties? (Recombining English letters will never produce Chinese books.)
Because mutations that help the creature survive are passed onto its offspring, and then they carry the mutation as well. Mutations that do not, kill the creature, and their genes are not passed on.
11.Is it possible that similarities in design between different animals prove a common Creator instead of a common ancestor?
Anything is possible, however the evidence points elsewhere at the moment.
12.Natural selection only works with the genetic information available and tends only to keep a species stable. How would you explain the increasing complexity in the genetic code that must have occurred if evolution were true?
Mutation is the only answer I can offer. Creatures with small lifespans and large reproduction rates, like cells, have a much, much higher chance of mutation, thus they mutate more often, creating more complex genetic code. That repeated over billions of years, leads to some complex code.
13.When, where, why, and how did:
-Single-celled plants become multi-celled? (Where are the two and three-celled intermediates?)
Apparently the intermediates died off, as they weren't as successful as the multi and the single celled versions. Again, I'm no biologist.
-Single-celled animals evolve?
The first living things were single-cell plants. Those mutated to consume other cells to create energy. Those were the first animals.
-Fish change to amphibians?
Look above.
-Amphibians change to reptiles?
Again, see above.
-Reptiles change to birds? (The lungs, bones, eyes, reproductive organs, heart, method of locomotion, body covering, etc., are all very different!)
Not entirely, there are some species of bird that are rather close to reptilian, and some reptiles that are rather bird like, although most of them are extinct.
-How did the intermediate forms live?
*shrug* I'm no paleontologist.
14.When, where, why, how, and from what did:
-Whales evolve?
Land mammals that went back into the sea. They began living more and more of their lives in the sea, until they just left the land entirely. Feet mutating webs, and those mutating into fins, etc.
-Sea horses evolve?
-Bats evolve?
-Eyes evolve?
-Ears evolve?
-Hair, skin, feathers, scales, nails, claws, etc., evolve?
The rest of these, I can only attribute to mutation. I don't know enough of biology to answer.
15.Which evolved first (how, and how long; did it work without the others)?
The digestive system, the food to be digested, the appetite, the ability to find and eat the food, the digestive juices, or the body’s resistance to its own digestive juice (stomach, intestines, etc.)?
The drive to reproduce or the ability to reproduce?
The lungs, the mucus lining to protect them, the throat, or the perfect mixture of gases to be breathed into the lungs?
DNA or RNA to carry the DNA message to cell parts?
The termite or the flagella in its intestines that actually digest the cellulose?
The plants or the insects that live on and pollinate the plants?
The bones, ligaments, tendons, blood supply, or muscles to move the bones?
The nervous system, repair system, or hormone system?
The immune system or the need for it?
Again, I do not know.
16.There are many thousands of examples of symbiosis that defy an evolutionary explanation. Why must we teach students that evolution is the only explanation for these relationships?
Because it's the only example we have that has proof, and that can be tested. This is what makes it a theory. ID CANNOT be tested, and thus is not a legitimate theory, and remains in the realm of religion, where it belongs.
17.How would evolution explain mimicry? Did the plants and animals develop mimicry by chance, by their intelligent choice, or by design?
Behavior has to do with the brain, that's all I know.
18.When, where, why, and how did man evolve feelings? Love, mercy, guilt, etc. would never evolve in the theory of evolution.
Again. I know basically nothing about the brain.
19.*How did photosynthesis evolve?
It's the simplest form of powering the body. Absorbing light energy which is changed to whatever the body needs.
20.*How did thought evolve?
*shrug*
21.*How did flowering plants evolve, and from what?
Dunno, but they evolved from non-flowering plants.
22.*What kind of evolutionist are you? Why are you not one of the other eight or ten kinds?
I was unaware there were kinds. I though you either subscribed to the theory, or you didn't.
23.What would you have said fifty years ago if I told you I had a living coelacanth in my aquarium?
I'd have said you were rather rich, because the coelacanth was rediscovered in like the 1910s.
24.*Is there one clear prediction of macroevolution that has proved true?
No, because we've only known about macroevolution for a few hundred years. It takes MILLIONS at the very least.
25.*What is so scientific about the idea of hydrogen as becoming human?
Hydrogen didn't just become human. You're skipping most of the processes, which are all scientific, have been documented and proven, for the most part.
26.Do you honestly believe that everything came from nothing?
Personally, I believe it's all cyclical. All the matter in this universe has always been here, or was dumped here by some anomaly from another universe, or whatever. However what I feel doesn't matter when weighed against actual evidence. Evidence is all that matters.
Long post. :o Anyway, again, I'm a Computer Scientist/Physicist using a basic knowledge of biology and evolution. Just because I don't know, doesn't mean other people don't, and just because nobody knows at this time, doesn't mean it's unknowable, or that it was a creator. We just don't know. But that's why science exists. To explore, and to explain. It can't be done all at once, and immediately.
lol signature
Let me give it a go. I'm by no means a specialist in Biology, but nevertheless. If somebody spots a mistake (or most probably 20), give me a shout.
Oh, actually read the one above. I just like popular science magazines, he's an expert.
Last edited by Discord; 04-20-2007 at 11:48 PM.
The human eye does show distinct signs of half-assed-ness.
For instance: The nerves and blood vessles that feed and connect the retina lie on top of it.
This reduces visual acuity by blocking some of the light that enters the eye.
Also, in order to connect to the optic nerve all the nerves and blood vessles have to pass through a hole in the retina which creates a blind spot.
The eye of creatures like the squid on the other hand has the nerves and blood vessles connecting to the backside of the retina resulting in sharper vision and no blind spot.
This is because the invertebrate eye evolved from light-sensitive patches of skin as opposed to the vetebrate eye which evolved from brain tissue.
Another example of the crudeness of design is the wrist.
Look at an X-ray of it and you'll see that it takes two forearm bones and a clump of carpals to give it the same range of motion that a simple ball-and-socket-joint like the hips and shoulders provide.
This indicates either a goofball of a creator or plain old nature making due with what parts are available for adaptation.
Can we please have this moved in EOEE?
If I'm a monkey, then where are my fleas? ;-;
Actually, since we've answered Yevon's question, maybe he could answer a couple I've got.
1.) Where did God come from? Was he there forever? If so, why didn't he create us even earlier? What happened the day before he started creating the universe?
2.) If we are created in his image, why are we so stupid? Why are we not omniscient? Why do we sin? Was he really so incompetent that he didn't even think about building in an anti-Satan safety mechanism? If he did, why did it fail? How can someone infinitely smart make a mistake?
3.) What concrete evidence do we have of God? Apart from people, and a book written by people, telling us about him, do we have any concrete signs? Why didn't he cure AIDS or cancer yet if he's so benevolent?
4.) Did you ever think about the possibility that the 10 Commandments were written and successfully implemented to control a group of people without hiring guards? In order to keep as many of them form being raped and murdered by each other as possible?
Last edited by Discord; 04-21-2007 at 04:18 AM.
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