Nintendo Counts Down to Super Smash Bros. Brawl

[Monol]

But thats just it. That 60 percent ISNT skill. All that crazyness and randomness takes away from that aspect. As long as items are on and certain stages are available ANYONE can win. But that isnt fair to the kids that practice combos and edgeguard techniques when all some noob has to do is get a parasol that appeared infront of him and recover from it while a random bomb falls from the sky and lands on the more skilled person. It isnt fair that a new kid playing donkey kong can pick up a smash veteran on gnW's level (the name escapes me at the moment) and just simply cargo throw him off the side. It isnt fair that a kid who worked his butt off on a cheery picking shiek has the misfortune of being on the wrong side of the stage when a health container falls and heals the shiek while at the same time the arena tilts because kraid didnt take his happy pills in the morning and now the veteran is dead.

And super smash bros key gameplay mechanic that seperates it from mortal kombat or soul calibour isnt its items and arenas. Its the fact that instead when your hit your damage doesnt go down it goes up. Itst he fact that you dont die by a getting your heart stabbed you die by getting kicked off the planet .

You could definatly argue that just dealing with the crazyness is part of the skill that the game was intended for but i dont think that should apply in duels. Duels should be skill vs skill. Thats just fighting game edicate. Now if we were dealing in a free for all thats completely different. I say do whatever you want in that case. In fact i would strongly encourage "Free for all" tourneys. Spicing things up a bit lolz. Well sorry for another long winded rant . I see everyones point about the competitive thing but still...meh

[ljkkjlcm9]

I think people need to find a different game to play competitively. Next thing you know, they'll be holding Mario Party tournaments. Seriously, when has any Nintendo game not been made to be a great single player adventure, or a fun, kick back and play with your friends game. It's really not meant to be a hardcore fighting game the likes of Soul Calibur and Mortal Kombat and etc. I play with friends to have fun. Granted they don't like always losing, but yet they always still want to play.

THE JACKEL

[NeoCracker]

Um, not fair?

You realize that there are many ways to effectively use Items.

What about the guy who has spent so much time practicing using Items and figuring out how to use them effectively with different characters?

Strip Items, and what does that say to all of their practice?

I'm not saying one way of playing is superior, but playing with Items is hardly 60% of crap that doesn't use skill.

I play with items, and against some friends I still beat them all the time.

It's not random, it's because I know what I'm doing.

Same reason I like playing Brinstar depths. It's not luck that gets you victory, it's knowing how to fight on the stage.

[ljkkjlcm9]

another point to add

it seems like they've given more characters ways to reflect items. But then of course there were the items that you couldn't reflect, like the star rod. They make items a central part of the game. I always loved getting the homerun bat. It would scare my friends. The best part was, I'd typically get them to worry so much about getting homerun, I'd throw it at them all the time.

now certain items I like to take off, such as the invincible star, or the hammer, because I think it detracts from the wonderful battle that's going on and just makes people run away.

oh, and I play all stages, and most items, and I still always win. It also made me become good with multiple different characters.

THE JACKEL

[Roto13]

Would you stop bragging? It's getting annoying.

[ljkkjlcm9]

Would you stop bragging? It's getting annoying.

naw, just because it annoys you, I'm going to do it some more.

Anyways the point of me saying it was that items doesn't mean people with skill, can't still be good. In fact you can learn to use items better and become even more skilled. But at the same time they can be a great equalizer.

THE JACKEL

[Monol]

I think people need to find a different game to play competitively. Next thing you know, they'll be holding Mario Party tournaments. Seriously, when has any Nintendo game not been made to be a great single player adventure, or a fun, kick back and play with your friends game. It's really not meant to be a hardcore fighting game the likes of Soul Calibur and Mortal Kombat and etc. I play with friends to have fun. Granted they don't like always losing, but yet they always still want to play.

THE JACKAL

No i think melee is the perfect game to play competitivly. No one is forcing you to play the game in tournaments. All fighting games are made to have "fun with your friends" just some approach it diffrently then others. If you wanna play with your buddys go ahead. No ones stopping you.

Um, not fair?

What about the guy who has spent so much time practicing using Items and figuring out how to use them effectively with different characters?

It's not random, it's because I know what I'm doing.

Same reason I like playing Brinstar depths. It's not luck that gets you victory, it's knowing how to fight on the stage.

Item placment is random. Always. You cant pick where the items will spawn. If you could thats an entierly different story. The guy who spent all of his time training with items only trains for when the situation permits. You cant start a match with a home run bat. You have to wait for it to RANDOMLY appear on the stage at any RANDOM location. Its cool to train with items. Heck i do it (star rod being my personal favorite) but still the fact that you dont know where they are going to appear is the issue. Lol i wont argue if you like brinstar. It takes ballz to enjoy that place so i comend you for that .

another point to add

it seems like they've given more characters ways to reflect items. But then of course there were the items that you couldn't reflect, like the star rod. They make items a central part of the game. I always loved getting the homerun bat. It would scare my friends. The best part was, I'd typically get them to worry so much about getting homerun, I'd throw it at them all the time.

now certain items I like to take off, such as the invincible star, or the hammer, because I think it detracts from the wonderful battle that's going on and just makes people run away.

THE JACKAL

Every item detracts from the "basic" engine of the game. Thats there intention. A characters being able to reflect things? Every character can reflect objects through "power shielding" and it is a pain to do. Reflecting is an advantage given to a character. If certain items eliminate that then whats the point? Then everyones equal which i know sounds awsome to everyone. But what i like about smash bros (heck fighting games in general) is the uniqness each character brings. I dont care that mewtwo is lower on the tier list than fox, mewtwos still has the highest priortized attack in the game. I like the challenge in a duel to have to beat a fox with mewtwo. It forces you think outside of the box and attempt to make strategies of your own. Ahh but whatever im ranting again lol. Im done...for now muhahaha

[NeoCracker]

Yes, the Items appear randomly. But why the hell would you train with just one kind of item?

I mean hell, thats just stupid. I can use basically any Item, and you can use different items differently with different characters.

Say DK. Using guns he can now fight at a distance, and try to lure an opponent to move in closer to you or do some damage without putting as much threat on yourself as you normally could.

However take a fast moving character like Shiek. She gets a ranged attack that doesn't take time to charge with a laser gun. She can now keep her distance and still pile on some damage safely.

Another thing for DK to use if he gets no gun is Bumpers and Bombs. Some well placed items like that can limit your opponents movements, thus making it easier for DK to land some of his harder hits.

Shiek, however, wouldn't want to do that with Bumbers and Bombs. She would be better suited for luring enemies into them, by either drawing or chasing them into them.

[ljkkjlcm9]

Every character can reflect objects through "power shielding" and it is a pain to do. Reflecting is an advantage given to a character. If certain items eliminate that then whats the point? Then everyones equal which i know sounds awesome to everyone.

that's the exact point of the tournament rules though. To make everyone start and fight on equal grounds. If anyone can reflect items, then it's equal grounds. If certain items can't be reflected, it's equal grounds. So why aren't there items?

And no, lots of other fighting games are not casual like smash bros. You can't tell me the way fighting games are designed typically, that they're casual. There's nothing more to most of them than just fighting. Smash bros is different in that regard. There's crazy stages, crazy items, and adventure modes. Now adventure is even co-op. It is not a hardcore fighting game.

maybe the item spawn is random, but it adds a completely new level to the gameplay. Everyone runs to get a pokeball, and I'm sure assist trophies are included in that now too. You fight to get it, you play accordingly. Taking stuff like that out, makes it a new game entirely. My friends and I enjoy final destination sometimes to ease the stage worries... but items are never off, if anything, they spawn more.

THE JACKEL

[Ultima Shadow]

I mostly agree with Monol.

If you want a duel on a flat stage between two characters with very fixed movesets, you might as well be playing Mortal Kombat. You're not playing Smash Bros. Wacky, unpredictable play, maneuvering around the platforms, working the items into your battle strategies, those have all been central to the Smash Bros. gameplay. If you can't play with those things, you're missing out on most of the game. How can you claim to have be a skilled player of Smash Bros. if you can't handle 60% of its gameplay?

First of all, people do NOT only play on FD in competitive play. Stage banning varies a lot, but in the tournaments I've been to, stages like Corneria (you can get randomly hit by lasers from the attacking space ships on that stage) and even Poke Float have been allowed. And yes, the tournament that allowed Poke Float was highly competitive (even CJ, Japan's best smash player, was there). At most 20% of the matches I've played at tournaments have been on FD, and my personal favourite stage to play competitively is Dreamland 64.

Secondly... unpredictable play and maneuvering around the platforms are actually top priorities in competitive play.

And I doubt items and a select few stages alone are 60% of the gameplay.

I think people need to find a different game to play competitively. Next thing you know, they'll be holding Mario Party tournaments. Seriously, when has any Nintendo game not been made to be a great single player adventure, or a fun, kick back and play with your friends game. It's really not meant to be a hardcore fighting game the likes of Soul Calibur and Mortal Kombat and etc. I play with friends to have fun. Granted they don't like always losing, but yet they always still want to play.

THE JACKAL

I know Monol beat me to it, but... smash is a great game to play competitively. Simply because, while you do play it seriously, it's still lots of fun. Even at an competitive level, I find this game much more appealing than games like Soul Calibur and Mortal Kombat.

Smash doesn't lose all the fun just because you play without items and do your best to win.

Oh, and I don't remember who said it, and can't be bothered to go back and check, but it's not like you're only allowed to play Fox, Falco and Sheik or whatever in competitive play.
I'm personally a Ganondorf player in melee. And even though he's far from one of the best characters in the game, I have beaten many good players who played top-tier characters with him. The only character I really hate going up against is Sheik.

Even though the first character that I could play with competitively actually was Sheik, I still ended up using Ganondorf as my main for 3 reasons:

1) I think he's the most fun character to play.
2) It feels better to play a character that isn't top-tier.
3) I simply discovered that I actually was better with him than Sheik when I played at my first tournament. One match, I even beat a Sheik player with him that I had lost to miserably earlier in a Sheik-ditto.

And I'm certainly not the only one who doesn't play top-tiers at tournaments. The Germ, for example, is one heck of a good Link player who can wipe the floor with good Fox and Sheik players.

...I guess I've made my point clear, so let's move on.



Now, I have to agree with NeoCracker regarding stages. While items certainly involve just as much randomness as skill, stages are different. Even though the stage banning is there for a reason, all stages are still more about knowing how the stage works rather than randomness. On Poke Float and Rainbow Ride, the new pokemons and platforms doesn't appear randomly. They always appear at the same places and they always have the same functions. Even in Brinstar, which rotates randomly, there is always a way to take advantage of the situation. And if you know the stage well enough, you know when you "probably should move to a safer location" etc.

...So no matter which stage you play, skill still matters far more than anything else.

I can't say the same about items though, since certain items are more random than others. For example... taking advantage of a Mr.Saturn is pure skill. But if a heart, hammer or invincibility star randomly appears right where you're standing, there's no skill involved when you take advantage of that it. And if a bomb just happened to appear right infront of you just as you do a forward smash, then that's just bad luck.

...but if you play Mr. Saturns only, then it's all about skill!




Finally, competitive smash is fun. It's fun to compete, it's fun to be good at a game, and it's fun to try to get better. I can see what some of you mean when you say that stage banning and restrictions takes away all the fun (even though I personally don't agree with that), but some of you almost sound like playing smash competitively is a mortal sin (ok, maybe that's overexaggerating a bit, but you get the point). I mean... if people even play Pokemon competitively, then why not smash?

[KentaRawr!]

I think before anyone says that another person's style of play detracts from the game, they should consider that the other person is free to play however they like, and may be how they prefer to play the game. In that sense, doing it the way you saw as the better way to play, would detract from the game to them. See what I'm saying here? It's a perspective thing. But, clearly, in a Tournament, you're going to have players that look at it from the way that has the least random values.

Now then, with that, can we stop justifying ourselves for things so irrelevant to each-other's lives such as how we play a video game?

Edit for grammar. And another for bad sentence structure.

[Monol]

Relax kentarou were simply defending our views. Noones out right bashing any other persons viewpoints. Oh and if theres any character that is remotely cheap its sheik. Grr i hate shiek lol As a zelda main even bad shieks are a threat >_<.

[NeoCracker]

I actually kicked but with Zelda, couldn't play shiek worth crap though. :P

And I will concede sometimes Items do give a person a completely random advantage or disadvantage, but it's actually not that often it happens.

Though I still don't think they should be banned for tournaments, it doesn't really bother me they are.

They games still fun to play like that.

[qwertysaur]

I actually main as Zelda and Peach. I stay at a distance and either use din's fire or turnips to raise my opponents damage, then smash them away. With Peach, your always playing with items though. Peaches down smash is a bit too powerful though.

And I think the Ice climbers are cheap. While Nana is still an idiot most of the time, they are strong if someone knows what they are doing.

Also, go play as bowser and use his down throw. Bowser Love!

[Monol]

Well ill definatly admit that ANY stage should be chosen for counter picking at least. I almost forgot about how impossibly cruel ice climbers can be IF there both together. Wobbling is waaay to unfair (for those not familiar with the technique it involves popo or the dominate iceclimber if you switch costumes grabs then jabs the opponet then nana proceeds to in rythme tilt A or down A tilt. This causes the opponet to be trapped until the ice climber stops jabbing creating infinite damage) in brawl theres a new type of wobbling but it at least looks funny. Heck alot of the glitches in brawl do