Penelo - Transient Extraordinaire

[Shattered Dreamer]

Probably my main reason for this is because XII had such a great backstory. I would have liked to learn more about it and what was going on, as that's what really hooked me in in the beginning parts of the game. Overall, I think the story-to-gameplay ratio was way off, but just adequate enough for me to have a positive opinion on this game.

Couldn't have put it better if I tried

[Renmiri]

They really should have put as much effort into that as they did with world detail and gameplay. The fact that the last two one-player games in the series were IX and X, should make it obvious why so many of us have complaints with its storyline. It took a backseat, metaphorically, far back in the vehicle, and because of that, this game almost isn't an RPG, much less a Final Fantasy.

Probably my main reason for this is because XII had such a great backstory. I would have liked to learn more about it and what was going on, as that's what really hooked me in in the beginning parts of the game. Overall, I think the story-to-gameplay ratio was way off, but just adequate enough for me to have a positive opinion on this game.

QFT

Like I said to Setz, the reason I pick so much on the weak points of XII is because the strong points almost made it the best game ever.

Savanah and Capt'n: Grow up and we can talk

[Formalhaut]

Ok, we all need to take a break and have some nice cocoa.

Going into heated Discussion Mode... Please wait.....



Now, about the story, i think you don't always need the story in your face 24/7, and that you sometimes need the story to be in the background abit, whilst of corse staying in line.

And if I was queen, Would I have the time to locate my friends Vaan and Penelo(Team BAP), who has been gallavanting off as hes a sky pirate? Not likely.

Going into Normal Discussion made...Please wait.....


There, now, have all of you enjoyed my Cocoa I made you? You did! I made it out of my special Balthier Recipe! :bigbiggri

[Yukki-Chan]

A lot of people say that Vaan and Penelo forget their motivations, I don't think so they just stop repeating them, lets face it if they harped on about the reasons why they were on this journey too much nearly all of you would have something to say about it.

I do agree however that they seem like backseat characters when we start getting further into the story. It's kinda like it veers off course and focuses on storylines and events that relate to the other characters. I just kept Vaan in my party because I'd had him for so long at the start I couldn't imagine the party without him.

This said I haven't even finished the game yet so I'm just commenting on what I've seen so far, although I'm sure I have very little right to.

[Cap'n Basch]

Cap'n Basch pretty much owns a lot of people in here. <3

Blaming gamers for XII's poor story telling is not owning

I respect Wolf Kano's and your points, Cap'n Basch in spite of his gorgeous name (Bash!!!! ) is just a weak debater that resorts to AD HOMINEN attacks when he sees his pet game offended. He knows nothing of story telling theory yet he tries to put me down pretending he knows. Won't fly, I have several classes on it under my belt. He would do better to discuss XII story telling on it's merits, not on my and any other people's "flaws" because we don't love it.

Ad hominem, when used correctly, is a fallacy based on saying "Person X is Y" and asserting their viewpoint is not correct as a consequence of that. It is not generalised to personal attacks, and I made none of those anyway. Moreover, it is not always a fallacy; it is valid to say "You cannot trust this man on property rights because he is a thief".

It would be correct to bring it up if I made the direct statement that you had ADD and therefore couldn't follow the story properly.

Fun fact: saying someone's argument is wrong based solely on a fallacy and without an actual counter-argument of your own is itself a fallacy.

Further, I have presented an argument in my post - you have chosen not to address it and to make imagined attacks on you the central issue of the discussion.

I guess some exaggeration is fine and harmless in your view, like "anyone who dislikes XII is like a child with ADD" while others are unfair, heh ?

Fairness works both ways.

Your reading comprehension needs work if you read what I wrote that way. The "Child with ADD" line is hyperbole with respect to the length of your attention span (derived from the fact you seem to forget plot points quickly when presented with a certain volume of gameplay). It is not a general attack on XII haters, and saying that is is dishonest - and a very good way to sidestep the need to provide an actual argument. I think you're capable of having this discussion, why are you looking so hard for a reason to cop out?


Additional, I would point out that I and I expect many others here don't care that you've taken "classes", and it's actually irrelevant to the discussion at hand because we cannot verify the quality of these courses, their content, your relative success in them, and so on and so forth. Having an interest in creative writing does not make you a literary critic and definitely not an infallible one, though you certainly make the effort to pass yourself off as such here.

I'm going to quote this:

The more time you spend trying to cherry-pick insults out of other peoples' remarks, the more you look like your actual argument holds no water.

Then present this:

Vaan hasn't forgotten his brother by Jahara and Penelo certainly hasn't "forgotten herself". An absence of direct referrences to Reks should not be read like that. Reks was important for helping establish Vaan's character and his relationship with Basch; he was not there for Vaan to endlessly angst over as though he were Squall. Vaan is not solely defined by Reks. And not only is it impertinent to the development of the actual story to bring him up, but from the fact Vaan is no longer ostensibly angry about Reks' death, we can infer he was made peace with it and it reflects a grown trust in Basch.

...every time Larsa joins the party, any subsequent interactions between those two characters, and the things she says in later areas (specifically Archades, because how she and Vaan feel about the Empire is important to their characters)...

Which are the correctly cherry-picked quotations if you actually want to have a meaningful discussion rather than a derail to avoid having to justify your viewpoint. And the things you didn't bother actually responding to. Care to actually defend the position I refuted?

[Marshall Banana]

Ashe: "Then I will defend Dalmasca and stop this (SPOILER)Bahamut. This is my charge -"
Vaan: "That's our charge, actually."
Penelo: "It's our home. It belongs to us all."

I know that I'm satisfied. =o

[rubah]

Since when does final fantasy == great storyline? Go replay the NES games xD

[Renmiri]

Hehe.. So you want to say I have no arguments against XII lack of story ? Go right ahead, we both have post histories so it's easy to see who is doing a fallacy. I suggest you start on December 2006 on my posts. My November 2006 posts were still pretty tentative as I was still pretty early in the game. And the later posts, well... It's been over 6 months discussing it, so I only bother when I think it is good debate. Mud slinging fests I'll take a pass.

[Cap'n Basch]

That is paramount to an admission that you cannot defend your assertions.

You have made specific assertions that are relevant to this thread. Saying "look at my post history" is laziness at best and an outright cop-out because you have no argument at worst. Since you're not willing to actually present an actual case to back up your statements, there is no reason anyone should take what you're saying seriously.

And if you're not up for mud-slinging, you shouldn't have been so quick to misrepresent or caricaturise other people's positions ("He's saying all XII haters have ADD!") in a cheap ploy to strengthen your own. This is another fallacy: it's called a really valid point and i'm impressed by your thinking.. Maybe you would like to retract a few of your statements?

[Savannah]

Savanah and Capt'n: Grow up and we can talk

Or maybe when you learn to put all the masterful knowledge you got from "storytelling" classes to use instead of just whining that people are insulting you when they aren't, we can talk.

[Dr. Acula]

I think everyone needs to take another cocoa break.

Penelo was there to look after Vaan, and because she didn't want to go back to Rabanastre without him, so I'm assuming. Vaan was there to avenge his brother.
On a slightly off-topic note, I wish this game had more dialogue. I loved the characters, but when I borrowed FFX off a friend, I was like, "Wow, they talk a lot. They should have done this in FF12!"

[Setzer Gabianni]

They talked an awful lot, but remember, were these characters like those in X? No. Maybe if Ashe was a little bit friendlier, then maybe there'd have been more chit chat - but she was..not a typical main heroine. Though she seemed "bitter" and wanted to get things done, she still managed to come across as being..somewhat caring. She didn't want to dilly dally around, she wanted to get things done/sorted. There was plenty of interaction, between everyone.

[Firo Volondé]

TBPH, after reading that discussion (if you could even call it that:rolleyes2 ), I'm agreeing strongly with Renmiri here. I'll try to justify why, though I haven't finished it yet.

At the beginning of the game, Vaan is the main character, and we see he has strong feelings about avenging his brother, especially when he meets Reks' supposed killer, Basch. In time, he does realize that the Empire, not Basch, killed his brother. From that point on, Vaan goes from a cameo, to a mere Vincent character (as in, like Vincent, his only role is to be an extra playable character).

Onboard the Strahl, he plays no role whatsoever, and when the party leaves Bhujerba afterwards (the scene where Ashe plans to steal Balthier's ship) his entire reason for going is, and this is a direct quote, "I don't want to stick around this place." He doesn't have to bring his brother up constantly, but if he was going to, that would be the time. I could stop here, because Savannah and Cap'n have already failed, but I want to make sure you can't dismiss my evidence as a bad case of ADD:rolleyes2 .

Another direct quote:

Balthier: Hard to say. I'll know when I find it. What is it you want, Vaan?
What are you looking for?

Vaan: Me? What am I looking for? I guess- well, I- you know...

Yo, Vaan. Is the answer you're looking for 'avenge my brother' perchance? Why don't you say it? Maybe because... you've forgotten it!

Vaan finally remembers his brother in Jahara, but all thoughts of revenge are long gone by then. So why were Vaan and Penelo even there? Unlike the previous games, the character you control in cities is not the central character. In my opinion, they are just present to illustrate the fact that war affects everybody, not just the important people in the world.


Ah, that was a good rant. I think I'll have some cocoa now.

[Renmiri]

Hihi! I want my cocoa with some marshmallows on top please

Another thingthat bothered me was the sky pirate concept. It is such a cool concept yet we saw nothing about it. What exactly do Vaan and Penelo do after they get the Strahl ? Do they go around stealing stuff from Larsa's fleets ? From Ashe's fleets ? From Al Cid's ? From Tomaj and the other merchants ?

It is just a very cool concept completely abandoned right after it is born, like many others in XII. I honestly think that they ran out of time or something, because the script writers left so much cool / important stuff unexplored!

[Setzer Gabianni]

..Vaan and Pennelo get the Strahl for themselves like..at the end of the game? So you're not going to see much of "sky pirating" yourself are you? You'll probably see more of it in FFXII RW. So, it's not a cool concept that's been abandoned - seeing as they only get the Strahl to themselves at the end, it's not exactly had enough time for anyone to say that the cool concept has been abandoned.