The morality of XII is flawed - Spoilers - my rant

[Vivisteiner]

^Thats a given.

Thats one thing I like about this game. It doesnt portray the monarchy as 'good' or 'right'.

Final Fantasys can go quite deep. FFX showed how religion can be corrupt, FFXII how monarchy can be corrupt. What will FFXIII show?

[Bolivar]

^Thats a given.

Thats one thing I like about this game. It doesnt portray the monarchy as 'good' or 'right'.

Final Fantasys can go quite deep. FFX showed how religion can be corrupt, FFXII how monarchy can be corrupt. What will FFXIII show?

alot of crazy sh*t apparently

[Wolf Kanno]

With all due respect to those who did enjoy XII's brand of storytelling, I do feel that they used the "hints" thing too much. While all the games do hint at particular outcomes to scenarios, I feel that XII does it too often and on scenarios that should definately have been fleshed out. It seemed to me they left things purposefully vague to make up for rather weak characterization. They can't explain why people act the way they do (I believe most everyone has a reason for doing something regardless of the situation), so they leave it up to the player to make those decisions. I guess it's a personal taste.

I play RPGs like I read books. I want to know why the characters think and act the way they do. When an action does not match past actions I want a reason, whether it be a past experience or something else.

To me, it would be like a hateful person sitting down next to me and proceeding to initiate a pleasant conversation. Why are they speaking to me nicely and not everyone else? Are they more friendly with people my sex because of bad experiences with a parent? Do they just have mood swings? I don't know. When someone who is hateful starts acting extremely pleasant there is a reason.

All Final Fantasies use these "hints", but, to my knowledge, none of them use that system when dealing with important character aspects. We know why Tidus hated his father, we knew why Vivi acted so odd and quirky. I think it comes down to one thing: whether you need to feel "connected" to your characters. I need to in order to enjoy a game. Why should I want these people to succeed when I know so little about them?

I generally don't mind "hints" that lead to specualtion but I feel this is due to the realism of it. In real life, things don't neatly wrap themselves up, people are cruel or even kind for no real reason, and most events in life are always shrouded with mystery. It's due to this belief that I can give XII more slack. I only hate specualtive elements in a plot if I feel it conflicts with logic. I don't feel XII did this very much so I'm more forgiving than normal.

But I do agree with you that XII definetly pushed it a little too far. I personally would have loved to see more about the Judges, Balthier, Archadian government, Al-Cid, and more political intrigue. I love this team, but this was definetly their weakest (storywise) of their games. Perhaps Matsuo's departure mid production played in all this but we will never know I'm afraid...

Why should I want these people to succeed when I know so little about them?

QFT!

And also, why should I help them if they don't help anybody ? Ashe got all the power she was seeking, so did Larsa. Why didn't they help Mt. Bur Omisace, or later Reddas town ?

I hate that aspect of the game: they went to great lengths to show the cruelty that happened in Bur-Omisace but then are content on a passing little scene on a hunt to show it's end ?

PS: Yeah Zargabaath didn't need to sacrifice himself because someone else did (SPOILER)Balthier. I guess he is one of the noble figures.

Larsa never wanted power and Ashe's personal struggle in the story is to choose power to smite her enemies or try to restore her kingdom. Both were able to save their kingdoms which is all either wanted. Both also averted a massive war between empires saving more lives in the process. I don't feel either could even help the people if they wanted. What with Ashe restoring her kingdom politically and economically and Larsa fixing the mistakes within his own kingdom from his brother's mischief. I'm certain both are more concerned with helping their own people first, since it's their duties as the monarchs of their kingdoms.

As for how they dealt with Bur-Omisace, I felt it was done rather well. I never felt a cutscene would have made it better. I still feel that the scenario can be looked upon as a moral to understand that "God only helps those who help themselves". In a world where "might makes right" (and I'm speaking of Ivalice) it was the best the scenario could have been presented.

And also, why should I help them if they don't help anybody ? Ashe got al lthe power she was seeking, so did Larsa. Why didn't they help Mt. Bur Omisace, or later Reddas town ?

I would generally complete the game in order to see the plot unfold. The characters you control dont have to be noble IMO for you to have motivation to 'help them.'

Ashe is certainly a strange and interesting character. Sometimes she seems like she wants to help her people, sometimes she seems selfish. What I seem to have gathered is that Ashe wants the best for the people of her own Kingdom, and she cares little for people from other kingdoms. Dalmasca definitely comes first to her, and she is probably extremely right wing in believing that people can help themselves. Wolf Kanno made the good point that in ancient times, moral values on subjects such a these were very different.

I feel the "human" element of XII was Lady Ashe's struggle to decide between helping her kingdom or getting revenge and I do feel it played out strongly. So I agree that Lady Ashe is a truly interesting character and I feel it was rather intriguing to see this type of character as a woman. Seriously, the series needs more strong female characters like Lady Ashe.

And also, why should I help them if they don't help anybody ? Ashe got al lthe power she was seeking, so did Larsa. Why didn't they help Mt. Bur Omisace, or later Reddas town ?

I would generally complete the game in order to see the plot unfold.

I did. There is not even a cutscene with Bur Omisace or Balfonheim. Like it wasn't there at all. but they made a point to show Ashe got back her ring

Hey now Balfoheim is a completely different story. We are talking about a den of pirates and fugitives located in the Archadian empire. Only Larsa can truly help them and the only thing he can do to help them is to ignore them since the main political conflict is the Empires interest in the port city. Besides, Reddas chose to die, not to help Lady Ashe and the party so much as it was for him to redeem himself for his crimes as a judge. It can be argued that Lady Ashe and co. helped both the Holy Temple and Port town by removing Vayne from power and getting revenge for them.

I spose you do have some points. It was unrealistic I suppose, as the main characters seem to be compassionate (Basch and Ashe moreso) and yet they did very little to fix these issues. But if you think it's actually upsetting that they don't do these things, then I think you take the plot a little too seriously.

Most of the party is self-motivated for personal reasons. The one aspect of this game I like is how realistic the party really was compared to previous installments. Everyone has a personal motive and the party is only formed cause they can each use each other to fulfill their own personal goals (though poor Balthier and Fran were never properly compensated... though they did get rid of the bounty hunters and resolved some personal family issues... still I bet they wish they got paid instead.)

^Thats a given.

Thats one thing I like about this game. It doesnt portray the monarchy as 'good' or 'right'.

Final Fantasys can go quite deep. FFX showed how religion can be corrupt, FFXII how monarchy can be corrupt. What will FFXIII show?

alot of crazy sh*t apparently

(In the voice of The Monarch) MECHA SHIVA?!

What little has been released about the plot reveals a combination of both corrupt politics and religion. Though I personally hope it delves more into the ignorance of the masses who let themselves get controlled by such things.:rolleyes2

[Bolivar]

What little has been released about the plot reveals a combination of both corrupt politics and religion. Though I personally hope it delves more into the ignorance of the masses who let themselves get controlled by such things.:rolleyes2

lol i think that would offend their large american target audience. and we all know Square has a history of that, with xenogears almost not being released, and FFV being deemed as "too complicated" for our simple minds!

[WritinginaRedState]

I appreciate the realism of characters, however, unless that character has gone completely insane, they still have some kind of reason. I don't think the real life argument can truly be applied(although you do a fantastic job of applying it). Just because we can't read/hear people's thoughts in real life doesn't mean they don't have a reason for the things they do; they just don't explain them to anyone. As this is a game, I believe it is the writer's duty to at least give us the important aspects.

[Karellen]

What little has been released about the plot reveals a combination of both corrupt politics and religion. Though I personally hope it delves more into the ignorance of the masses who let themselves get controlled by such things.:rolleyes2

lol i think that would offend their large american target audience. and we all know Square has a history of that, with xenogears almost not being released, and FFV being deemed as "too complicated" for our simple minds!

They already pretty much did the whole "oppressive religion + ignorant followers" in FFX and FFT. It tends to be that as long as you don't say something blatant like "LOLZ CHRISTIANITY = EVIL" you can get away with it without anyone really dwelling upon it.

[Wolf Kanno]

What little has been released about the plot reveals a combination of both corrupt politics and religion. Though I personally hope it delves more into the ignorance of the masses who let themselves get controlled by such things.:rolleyes2

lol i think that would offend their large american target audience. and we all know Square has a history of that, with xenogears almost not being released, and FFV being deemed as "too complicated" for our simple minds!

Nah, the people who would be offended are too obsessed with watching CNN and bugging their politicians to act upon the really "serious issues" like trying to remove or maintain the logo of "In God We Trust" on their currency.

Though it's true Japan a bit condenscending towards us. I can't forgive them for Final Fantasy USA (Mystic Quest) myself.:mog:

I appreciate the realism of characters, however, unless that character has gone completely insane, they still have some kind of reason. I don't think the real life argument can truly be applied(although you do a fantastic job of applying it). Just because we can't read/hear people's thoughts in real life doesn't mean they don't have a reason for the things they do; they just don't explain them to anyone. As this is a game, I believe it is the writer's duty to at least give us the important aspects.

I feel most of XII's plot and characters made sense on a logical level. Though I do feel (and Renmiri will chime in when I say this) that this does not extend towards the character of Vayne. I really do feel his character completely fell apart by the time you reach the Bahamut. 90% of the game is him being an ambiguous morally complex character and then you reach Bahamut and he devolves into generic insane world conquering villain. It is one of a few aspects that does bother me about the story.

What little has been released about the plot reveals a combination of both corrupt politics and religion. Though I personally hope it delves more into the ignorance of the masses who let themselves get controlled by such things.:rolleyes2

lol i think that would offend their large american target audience. and we all know Square has a history of that, with xenogears almost not being released, and FFV being deemed as "too complicated" for our simple minds!

They already pretty much did the whole "oppressive religion + ignorant followers" in FFX and FFT. It tends to be that as long as you don't say something blatant like "LOLZ CHRISTIANITY = EVIL" you can get away with it without anyone really dwelling upon it.

Christianity(hell, religion in general:rolleyes2 ) = EVIL was already strongly alluded to in Xenogears (In fact Xenogears is a game that delves into the subject of the oppression of religion and politics on the masses.) and pretty much blatanly said in Vagrant Story already.

Hell, let's not forget the Shin Megami Tensei series that has the Judeo-Christian god playing the main villain in several of the games. Hell they make the angels under god's order sound worse than the Nazi's :rolleyes2

Of course FF is far more popular than either of these games so I can see the fire storm created by the game pulling something like this. Then again, politicians and the conservatives are more concerened with games like Manhunt and GTA which are more visually adult orientated rather than intellectually mature.

[Vivisteiner]

I really wish SE would do something like that for FFXIII.

It would be so fun to play.

[Bolivar]

Ok, well I just revisited this scene again today. I gotta say, it is a little messed up how when asked, Ashe says "we leave at once." Maybe they did kinda turn their back on the kiltias.

but this is all in the midst of a really big phenomenon. "The Rozarrian Invasion" (a phrase you hear bout 50 times in the game!) could be any minute now. Vayne, a military genius, is all for it, and has just mobilized one of the biggest forces Ivalice's ever seen. You also just found out that the manufacted nethicite is much more dangerous than previously thought. And the scene preceding is Bergen explaining that there is a new Dynast-King - Vayne, and he's putting history back in the hands of man (i think this is why the place was wiped out - bergen proving that they do not fear the gods), plus they got psychos like bergen who infused his bones with nethicite.

so there's alot going on and ashe is the only one who can stop it. and at the same time, she's purely motivated by selfish reasons to avenge her husband, her father, and her stolen birthright.

and they do do something, they stay there for a short time to pay their respects, you see them standing outside the temple watching the kiltias pray. so i don't think it's all that bad. maybe ashe was a little cold, but that's her character.

[Renmiri]

Must have been one of those extra subtle things, I missed that part of them "doing something". But if they were ina hurry then, what about in the end ? The FMV goes into great lengths to show Ashe got her wedding ring back (oh boho!) but not a single scene with the kiltians....

[Bolivar]

Must have been one of those extra subtle things, I missed that part of them "doing something". But if they were ina hurry then, what about in the end ? The FMV goes into great lengths to show Ashe got her wedding ring back (oh boho!) but not a single scene with the kiltians....

true.

[Wolf Kanno]

Must have been one of those extra subtle things, I missed that part of them "doing something". But if they were ina hurry then, what about in the end ? The FMV goes into great lengths to show Ashe got her wedding ring back (oh boho!) but not a single scene with the kiltians....

Come now luv, that ring scene lasts a whole 15-20 seconds at most in the ending and it's not like Lady Ashe hasn't been obsessing over her dead husband for a good 90% of the game.

Besides I don't remember Yuna helping to console the needs of the butchered Ronso tribe in X. Hell they didn't even get a mention afterwards either We had to wait until X-2 to find out what happened to them...

[Renmiri]

After Sin is defeated and falls you see Gagazet and other areas. And a major plot of X-2 was the Guado massacre of the Ronso and their decision to take revenge or not. There is no such thing on Revenant Wings.

And yes, the game made it perfectly clear that Ashe's sole concern was her dead husband. Although in two of the best lines in the game she shows a bit more depth:

In all of Dalmasca long years of history it has never used the Dawn Shard, this is the Dalmasca I want to preserve

and

The Rassler I knew would not want revenge

I think the problem goes back to the fact the main writer had to leave mid stream. The Bur Omisace plot was left too open, after the story going into pains to show how much misery they received for aiding the team it felt very unfair / amoral. If I was writing it I would have made Bergan just get Larsa and go meet the team at Miriam. There was no need to attack the refugee camp.

[Shattered Dreamer]

Just was thinking about what everyone was saying about parts of the plot being forgot about & such & just thought doesn't that make the story of FFXII more like life. When its over you probably still won't have the answer.

I think the final FMV features the refugees on Bur Omisace briefly. Just think maybe the Kiltians hadnt found their leader yet even though I sorta though the Veira living on Bur Omisace would have been picked especially after the she acts helping all the refugees after you defeat the hunt Fafnir. Plus what about Fran's sister wanting to leave the wood that wasn't fully resolved either. I guess FFXII story really is like life sometimes little details become unimportant to the grand scheme of things.

But in saying that as a FF fan I was disappointed stuff like this was glossed over. Hey if they had of given us these little bits of info maybe we wouldnt of argued about how weak the main plot is in places.

[WritinginaRedState]

Well see, the other games in the series left out things without being as detrimental to the plot as does with Final Fantasy XII (in my opinion). I would think it hard to use the more real argument because all of the games had those moments. I don't think "being vague" automatically qualifies as being life-like. I mean, in X, a religion that the whole world put its faith in turned out to be a corrupt evil entity. While the bad guy was beaten, there was still pain, heartache, all VERY real emotions. Heck I cried during the final scene. You see that not everything comes out good.
Relationships with so much potential never come to fruition in FF8, but you see the potential in them, and you want them to succeed. You want those people to be happy.

I saw none of that in XII. I could almost see potential between Ashe and Balthier. Heck, if they had carried that further I would be more satisfied. I just don't think people can be together through all that and just "drift apart" and Penelo so elegantly stated. I thought there was a nice attempt at trying to flesh characters out, but I don't think they quite made it.

This game had SO much potential and wastes it by being vague about important things. I believe that if Matsuno hadn't left we would have seen a very different game.