It did but two wrongs don't make a right so don't get this thread closed.Originally Posted by demondude55
That argument closed my thread
I think it did.
It did but two wrongs don't make a right so don't get this thread closed.That argument closed my thread
I think it did.
I don't want to get swept up in the fanboyism so i'm going to try to be as reasonable as possible.
But FFVII did revolutionize FF, RPGs, and video games.
My first point is going to need this disclaimer: I absolutely do not believe that better graphics make a better video game. But Squaresoft really took it to the next level and overnight became the leading publisher. They were always one of the premier names in RPGs, but after this everyone had no choice but to "follow the leader."
I'm not sure how many of you can even remember video games at the time, but this game really blew our minds when it was released. The FMVs were for the most part incomparable to any work before it. With 3d models on 2d wonderfully illustrated backgrounds, this was a gaming experience like no other. There was simply nothing like it.
The opening scene, scanning over the stars, which then fade to Aeris' face, then show her walking and the camera slowly pulls away to show an entire city like no one's ever seen before, and in big print: FINAL FANTASY VII. That alone would have been impossible for any Final Fantasy before it to do, so in a way (STRESSING "IN A WAY") the first 60 seconds of FFVII alone is better than the entire game of FFVI.
I'm going to leave the graphical aspect alone, but I'll remind everyone: at the time many games even on Playstation were still in 2d. After Final Fantasy VII, companies had to catch up, and fast, just to compete.
As far as story, on many different levels you simply cannot compare any previous FF to this game. The fact that it has social commentary is enough to blow most RPG's previously released out of the water. On the train with Barret, Cloud uses the train as a metaphor for the lives of those living in poverty. That alone is deeper than anything in the previous 6 installments.
It's fun for us to come here and talk about how each FF brought something new to the table. But this is greatly exaggerated - The First 5 games were still using the same sprites as the original installment. It wasn't until FFVI that you stopped seeing the same old man with the pointy hat. Also, VII gets criticized for its conceptual setting being a departure from the rest of the series - every FF game has high technology juxtaposed to medieval or fuedal society. And VI took it to a new level with a highly industrialized world.
But FFVII was the first to really introduce the cultures of many different civilizations into the mix. East and West are beautifully blended into a world that could very well have been in either the very distant past or future. Even the first mission, with Cloud slicing up soldiers with guns, is a reference to a real life incident when 2 samurais infiltrated and sabotaged a British production plant. It's just crazy ideas like that that really separates this game from its peers.
This game gets alot of criticism on this site, but to deny that it upped the ante for video game designers on almost every aspect is just lying to yourself.
Bolivar, I find it hard to disagree with your statements. They're eloquent and you provide good evidence. My only two comments:
While what you've explained shows how FFVII took the series "to the next level", I think that it's up to individual interpretation as to if it was revolutionary or not.
Anything related to graphics has to be taken with a grain of salt when discussing "revolutionary". As myself and Goldenboko have pointed out, you have to be careful that you are not attributing a revolutionary shift in gaming to Square when it should be attributed to Sony. True, the graphics were something we had not seen before, but that is because Sony provided Square with hardware powerful enough to run such a game, not because Square figured out some new algorithms or some such to completely reinvent what was possible on the Super Famicom/Nintendo.
O rly?
That was a scene from the end of Final Fantasy VI, and in my opinion the most epic scene from any FF ever. The was dialogue fantastic, deep, and moving. I've don't find any scene in FFVII to be better.
Before I even respond to your posts I want to point out:
Having something new, in and of itself, is not revolutionary. Also, many of your points are related to the Playstation in general, not FFVII, such as hardware powerful enough to handle 3D graphics and the data storage meduim (CD). This would mean that the Playstation was revolutionary, not FFVII.
No, 3D graphics did not make it revolutionary, but rather advanced the grahpics used in the series. FFIV advanced the graphics by having the world map "flatten" when you flew the airship and using multiple scrolling backgrounds in caves, sich as the Land of the Summoned Monsters. FFVI advanced the graphics by using Mode 7 (pseudo 3D) graphics when riding a chocobo or flying an airship. FFVII advanced the graphics by switching to 3D models. FFVII's advanced graphics were no more revolutionary than any other game, but rather a reflection of the graphical power of the new gaming console. And just because it was the first to use 3D graphics doesn't make it revolutionary.
Square released FFVII on the Playstation because it was cheaper to produce CDs than cartidges. Again, this would mean the Playstation was revolutionary, not FFVII.
FFII: Josef
FFIV: Tellah
FFV: Galuf
FFVI was "half-way", considering the whole point of the story is that technology and machinery are replacing magic is one of the the main points of the story. If you're trying to argue that FFVII was revolutionary for being sci-fi, then FFVI would be more revolutionary because it paved the way for FFVII by blending sci-fi elements into a fantasy setting.
People play games 10 years later for a variety of reasons, revolutionary is one of the lesser reasons.
I'm going to take a guess here and say that you think FFVII is revolutionary because you hadn't played many rpg's before FFVII and it was truely revolutionary coming into a new genre with such a powerful game. But when compared with the rest of the series as it matures, it's not revolutionary, just advancing on previous ideas.
revolutionary - Definitions from Dictionary.com
I rest my case
It seems you all forget what revolutionary means. The playstation was a revolutionary system. We're talking about Final Fantasy. Yes, VII was released on the Playstation, making IT THE FIRST 3D AND FIRTS FF ON CD. Bringing new change to a series is revolutionary. Voice acting in FFX was revolutionary for Final Fantasy, as none of the previouse installments had it. But the most benchmark revolutionary aspects take place in FF VII, making IT the MOST revolutionary.
Every FF brought something new to the table. But VII kicked it up about 5 notches. Like I said, you can have your personal opinions about the story, but the game is a favorite in many peoples hearts, even after they played I-VI. And that alone says something.
Last edited by grim07; 07-10-2007 at 11:48 PM.
Radically new? Whats so readically new? The battle system had very few changes, the newest things it had was limits, which were started in FFVI. The graphics we new, but thats not because of square but because of Sony graphics voice acting, all of that mainly pertains to a system not to a specifc game until the game pushes the system's limit.
Your source only helped Mullet and I.
You rest your Case??
But you didn't even gave proof of anything.
And your already giving up...?
What was really so revolutionary about the PS1?
Because it played music? Others do that.
The PS3 is the best exemple of revolutionairy.
Sony got in the top 10 compagnies in the world for the most revolutionary concept of combining all the most entertainment with it's PS3.
So bassically, making it on a CD is revolutinaire.
That means that FFIV was too for the Super Nintendo back in the day?
No? Didn't think so.
News flash, Legend of Dragoon for the PS1 used voice acting for their character way before X did.
And they also had the addition system, of which what the game is reknown for and very good!
FFVII was revolutionairy. On what? you don't even say it! Having a huge sale does not make it revolutionary.
You know, I could actually with you that it was, but there's no proof of what you are saying is true.
Until then, it just can't.
It needs a Radical Change, and they pretty much have different radical changes...
Correct!
Correct!
Correct!
Sorry, I would say that N64's 64bit was better than PS1's 32bit, playing Golden Eye with friends. N64 lacked of FMV support.
Not saying that FFVII's graphic wasn't good.
They were, but I didn't saw them at the time, and I bouht the N64.
So I can't say anything for or against it about the game.
But FFVIII really impressed me when I first saw...
so having the same effect, I would agree with that.
Same effect seing the ocean, flower plains and Rinoa's face. Then came the good part, Squall vs Seifer with FFVII flashing.
I would agree.
I doubt that's true, but haven't played VI, so no comment.
Not really in the info about Sony's news at the time. No comment (wish I could back you up on this...)
However, compagnies still struggle to compete with Square-Enix.
How so, because people are poor?
That's just the same as a dictator, only perharps more relevent to capitalist?
Disagree.
I Agree.
Correction: The first 6 games.
They weren't using the same sprite has the original.
In the SNES games, they were more detailed ''like the first Mario compared to Super Mario World''.
Disagree.
What you meant was it was 3D enviroment.
Correct!
It reappeared in XI.
I think it was a step foward for the series. Another Point.
I think you meant FFVII. Only two towns are like that, Midgar and Junon. And the rest of the world is pretty empty like every other FFs...
I give points for that.
Someone still hasn't explain it to me how Midgar and Junon were the only real big cities the world.
I didn't lisensed to the news back then, I was only 10.
I don't know about that.
...
still no answer to anything
...
WHAT DID UPPED THE ANTE FOR VIDEO GAME DESIGNERS?
As far as I know, the same can be said about Starcraft and Diablo II when it was first released.
Using a combination of spells and skills in an MMORPG, competing and co-operating.
I would say that Blizzard really were one of the first true compagnies to really revolutionised the online gaming and community, by bringing them in the same universe and server so it's easyer to find people. Giving them channels to chat and private channels for clans and ect.
It also did a fortune too.
Last edited by Hyperion4444; 07-11-2007 at 12:58 AM.
HEY! This is like the "Is Sephiroth the best villian in FF" thread where everyone ended up trying to knock some sense into the one's who purely wouldn't listen, then the thread just faded away with people double posting for attention that they nevergot.
Other than that, Ironically FFVII was the start of my downlike of the Final Fantasy series, because what comes up must come down, and due to the mass fan craze of this game the makers of FF now put more heart into selling this game 10 years later than they do on their genre to be saved. Meaning, No I did not like FFX, FFXI, FFXII, ANY OF THE SPIN OFFS OF ANY GAME, and I have no intentions or want to buy any FF game due to the lack of heart being put into it. Yes, they did put alot into the game, the game had heart just like everyother game before it, but I say that this game singlehandedly took down what FF was to me.
Granted I liked the game when I was 13 but now at 21, I don't find it -anywhere close- to being as great as it was when I was 13. I guess at 13 I was blinded by how 'revelotionary' this game was and came to my senses later on. And so you can't say that age has anything to do with not liking it, I love FFIV and FFVI -much- better than I did at the age of 9 and still play them both like a crazy person on crack.
The only reason I've -ever- replayed FFVII wasn't because of the great revolutionary story or what ever, it was 'cause of the chocobo racing. Which means I should really just go buy chocobo racing the game and finally get rid of this 'revolutionary' game once and for all. :rolleyes2
it wasn't that revolutionary. You equip abilities in ff5 to use them in battle, you equip relics in ff6 to get abilities, you equip materia to use abilities, etc
josef dies to save you from being crushed by a rock, tellah dies for reasons I really can't remember because I don't like that game and haven't played it in a coon's age, galuf dies to save you so you can lay some smackdown on exdeath, etc
ff1 was revolutionary in that you had big nice graphics on a new system, ff4 was revolutionary in that you had big nice graphics on a new system, ff7 was revolutionary in that you had big nice graphics on a new system, etc
Pretty much the only truly revolutionary thing is how these games revolve in circles to have the same linear growth in features.
I don't know about that.
...
Maybe it does, but you also have backers.
true, a lot of critism it gets in general is from people who played ff1-ff6 first, not nocking them because i am one myself:rolleyes2 but many people think ff7 is terrible because it has modern technology and things like that, Apparently it is not a traditional final fantasy,but just because ff1-ff6 came out first does not mean that it has to stick to this for ever. They tried changing it and it worked very well obviouslyI don't know about that.
...
Maybe it does, but you also have backers.
If I was like Cloud I don't think I would have taken that test.
Changed to stop Jessweeee♪ from going insane. Is that better?
I don't want to start a argument but, what you stated in number 1 could've not been revolutionary for other games but revolutionary for Final Fantasy in general. All of the Final Fantasy lovers loved how the graphics got 3-D for the game and how it changed.sorry to be a smartass, but...
1. The series' graphics were always improving, so advancing to 3D like every other game of the time was in no way revolutionary.
2. Changing the method for storing game data is not revolutionary.
3. False.
Final Fantasy VII was NOT the first in the series to distance itself from the medieval fantasy setting.
most things that are considered "revolutionary" in FF7 appeared in earlier installments.
The only revolutionary aspect of FF7 was the excellent, complex storyline. That's it. I'm not saying that it's music, gameplay, characters, or graphics weren't great, but they just weren't revolutionary when compared to, lets say, FF6.
Thanks Polaris for the Awesome Avy and Sig!
Beaten FF I,III,IV,V,VI,VII,VII CC,VII DC, VIII,IX,X,XII,XIII Dissidia Currently on I&X-2
I think it was a step foward.true, a lot of critism it gets in general is from people who played ff1-ff6 first, not nocking them because i am one myself:rolleyes2 but many people think ff7 is terrible because it has modern technology and things like that, Apparently it is not a traditional final fantasy,but just because ff1-ff6 came out first does not mean that it has to stick to this for ever. They tried changing it and it worked very well obviouslyI don't know about that.
...
Maybe it does, but you also have backers.
I even think they should have changed the title for a new series and continue there while having FF in medival past.
It would haved worked!
Lord, look what you have started...
Is FFVII revolutionary? Not really, though it did bring one revolutionary thing to the series. Something only Bolivar mentioned breifly but I feel he went off track so he can rile up the FFVI fanboys
I'm with Goldenboko and Flying Mullet about the whole CD/3D element. At the time, it seemed inevitable that it was going to happen. Besides, if memory serves me correctly, there were several 3D RPGs on the Sega Saturn way before VII was released. Course many of them were pretty bad. So I guess it can be argued that VII was the first good 3D RPG.
Now most VII fans hate to discuss graphics as the main revolutionary aspect of the game cause we all know it's pretty shallow reason to like a game and like any fan of any game (not just VII) we like to pretend it was the more intellectually stimulating and profound aspects of the game that brought people to it and made them love it. Let's face it, we are all pretty shallow on some level.
What makes VII revolutionary not only to FF but RPG's in general, is the introduction of highly detailed pre-rendered cutscenes. It sounds shallow but hear me out. Although V and VI both pushed sprite technology and allowed players to see a greater level of depth with their characters; it can be argued that the cutscenes in VII allowed an even greater level of emotional pull. I don't believe Aerith's death would have been nearly as dramatic and inspiring if it was all done with in-game models. I don't think Sephiroth would be considered nearly as much of a badass if he didn't have the scene in the burning Nibelheim.
Many people love FF VII 's cast and story but I don't believe for a moment it's because the game is actually written better. I don't believe that Cloud is really any deeper or more meaningful as a character than Cecil or Terra. I believe that the introduction of the CG cutscenes allowed for these characters to be better presented to the players. It's one thing to watch a cute little pixelated sprite be killed, it's another to watch a 3D representation murdered up close, and watch as their eyes slink back into their heads and their body go limp as the blade pierces through them.
Graphically, VIII was a greater leap for the series than VII, story wise IV was a greater leap for the series, genre wise I and II are way more influential and groundbreaking than VII ever was.
True beauty exists in things that last only for a moment.
Current Mood: And it's been a long December and there's reason to believe. Maybe this year will be better than the last. I can't remember all the times I tried to tell myself. To hold on to these moments as they pass...
Wow, in a short time I have so much more to say... but it's to you guys..
Starting with Mullet, we can definately agree to disagree and i agree with you 100%. Although I don't think revolutionary is relative, as it's so easy to see how similar the first six games are ESPECIALLY compared to VII. Although VI took some serious strides forward, the first six in terms of both look and gameplay appear to be practically the same game when you compare it to how much of a change VII was. I believe that clearly outlines revolutionary.
Goldenboko, I very much applaud your counter-argument, and while you absolutely picked a great scene which reminded me how much I really love VI, NOTHING SAID IN THAT SCENE IS "DEEP". Everything is on the surface, it's general and obvious statements about life that i'm sure every person across cultures would agree with, IT'S REDUNDANT!!! It serves the purpose well for an RPG, but if you want to compare the artistic credibility of writing, it's laughable that you would even suggest it.
And ah, yes. Last but not least. Ever in opposition to my ideals, as I am unwavering against his. Mr. Kanno. I knew you'd show up sooner or later to wage your never-ending crusade against the fanboys of this game.
First off, I'm going to just put it out there, you will always and predictably never give this game any unique and positive distinction over the other games because it's gained more recognition than your favorite. Plain and simple my friend. And because VIII and X were directed by Kitase, and because their scenarios were written by Nojima, and because Nomura designed their characters, you will not allow yourself to enjoy those games. But you forget that it was Kitase and Nomura (among others, but most prominently Kitase) that brought you and wrote for you your beloved FFVI!!!
Now that that's out of the way, I'll use one of your points to adress what you, Mullet, and Boko have all insisted upon: That "it's the Sony Playstation that was revolutionary moreso than the game that is made for it."
And this is my main point - it changed how games were made. All 3 of you talk about how the graphics, sound, gameplay are revolutionary for the system, not the game, and I COMPLETELY AGREE.
This is my thesis - it is how Square took these elements and used them that allowed Final Fantasy VII to change games. So far, with the CD revolution in games there were two extremes, stereotypical of two prominent systems in their history - The SegaCD (not saturn, sega's first, and possibly the first popular, attempt at a CD console) had games that were basically movies - you make a minor selection, and then a scene plays out. Lather, Rinse, Repeat. Understand that I mean this in the most literal sense, this is not like all of your criticisms of the newer final fantasies, these were REALLY interactive movies. At the other end you had the playstation, which for the most part took gameplay elements that were already in existence and were able to make really large, or really long video games.
This is why I believe VII is revolutionary - it was able to transcend both extremes masterfully and create the foundation for the modern console game. It was able to take very in-depth gameplay, the best looking movie sequences of its time, and combine them at just the right ratio in order to provide one of the best gaming experiences of all time. It was the middle ground, not to say other games didn't dance around it, but FFVII was what nailed the bull's eye, and basically gave the blueprint for how games were to be made, especially on the Sony Playstation. If you didn't have your badass cut scenes, your game was boring. If you didn't have the good gameplay, you just didn't have the game. VII created this market.
It seems like the 3 of you were arguing that Sony Playstation provided the boundaries to allow a game like FFVII to be made. But what you're all forgetting is that FFVII MADE the Playstation, and allowed Sony to succeed as a brand name. It was because of that game that it was able to go toe to toe with the giant that was Nintendo, you can point to FFVII as the exact moment that the PSX became fulfilled. That's why it's such a huge controversy today as to whether FFXIII will be multi-console or not. Am I wrong?
Posting Permissions
