Quote Originally Posted by Bolivar View Post
1. With regardes to Sega CD, you're right, and that's something i want to bring up everytime someone says "interactive movie" that every FF has scenes where you don't do anything. My point was that Sega CD was one approach to the capabilities of CD, and Playstation and Sega Saturn were another. FFVII was the first modern video game in that it combined both aspects in the right ratio.
I agree with you.

2. I am not downplaying any of the earlier games. II and IV were both very revolutionary games. Especially when you consider their eras. But the differences between the first 6 games are much much smaller than their differences with FFVII. I am trying to illustrate the change, the entire basis for calling something revolutionary.
This is where you and I will always disagree I'm afraid. In my original post , I mention how the addition of storytelling and characters truly changed the entire genre. VII never introduced something so profound, you say it's storytelling was revolutionary for being deep but that in my opinion is nothing more than a miniscule advancement since the things I spoke of practically changed the genre permanently, whereas your point can be thought of as a logical next step. I mention that considering the technology limits of the earlier games, it's rather impressive and profound that they are as deep as they come off to be. VII was one of the first games (though I still argue that VI and CT beat it to the punch) to tell a more complex story because the technology allowed it. VII being able to tell the story cause of technoloy improvements is no where nesr as revolutionary than introducing the need for story and characters in the first place. To me, II and IV revolutionized the genre, VII just capitalized on what came before it and that's my general stance of "VII's Revolution in Gaming"

3. To this day I am still ashamed to say I've never beaten Chrono Trigger. But you're absolutely right that much of VII was influenced by what was accomplished in that game. But the issues dealt with (as much as I played) barely go further than skin deep. Like you said, there were limitations on these games, and they weren't able to thoroughly explore, explain, and allude to these themes as much as they did on FFVII.
You should play it again and finish it. It's far deeper than you think it is. It's just not as preachy as VII . Once again I find something we will probably never agree upon I'm afraid. You speak of VII story as "deep and profound" yet you fail to see that I as well as many other people, don't feel this way. Due to technology, VII could tell more elaborate and complex stories. That does not necessarily mean they were good.

I love VII's world and it's central theme of Life (which is the only thing I feel is actually "deep" about this game) but I feel it's cast of characters are shallow and cliched ridden and it's plot is written in a confusing way to make people believe that's it's actually profound when in reality it's just superflous fluff created to make the game seem intellectually stimulating and to serve as ameans to keep the player mentally enthralled. To me, VII is no more deeper than any of the previous six installments of the franchise. But to be fair, I don;t feel any of the main line FF games are actually deep or profound, they are just fun and entertaining.

4. Xenogears is one of the deepest RPG's of all time, but its place in this discussion is irrelevant due to the fact that it came after VII.
Xenogears started production at the same time as VII so I highly doubt VII truly impacted it except for actually letting it see release outside of Japan.

5. The fact that you call FFVII a fluke makes me question as to whether or not you were playing video games at the time (i'm sure you were). This game drove people nuts when it came out. There was nothing like it. If you were even a casual gamer, you couldn't escape it. Magazines couldn't stop talking about it, and it pervaded almost every discussion on video games for quite a long time. I remember my little brother watching me play it all the time for the sole reason that he wouldn't be left out of everyone in his school talking about it.
I remember the hype, I mentioned once in another thread how I gave into the hype of VII and walked away rather disappointed.

Now "fluke" may have been the wrong word, I pretty much meant it was a "one time deal". Most people were still shocked to hear Square leaving Nintendo and the whole "Final Fantasy 64" demo had people specualting. Not to mention that the overwhelming success of Secret of Mana, Chrono Trigger, Final Fantasy VI and Super Mario RPG had finally began to let RPGs get noticed outside of Japan. VII appears, making the leap to 3D, as has been mentioned before, VII didn't have to do this but it did. Fans were shocked to learn that Amano was no longer character designer and were thrown off by Nomura's heavy anime influenced designs.

Then the PR kicked in...

6. This follows from 5 in that it wasn't a fluke because of its brilliant marketing campaign, which you speak of later on (so why do you call it a fluke?). One of my professors, who has a Ph.D. in Political Science, brought FFVII up in our class on Public Opinion & Propaganda, due to it having a marketing campaign unlike any other game before its time. It was advertised on television, in comic books, magazines, even playboy. Square knew what they were doing, and this illustrates my theme that VII revolutionised FF, RPG's and video games

7. And this follows from 6 - that Square knew what a big step they were taking. There were over 200 artists employed for this game alone. They were breaking new ground in the FMV scene, with the types of illustrations they were using with the pre-rendered backgrounds, the development alone of this game is like nothing ever seen before. They needed to see a return on that and they were able to do it.

I'm certain many at Square thought the game would be a revolution, but it can easily be argued that from a buisness standpoint, Square was trying to finally move out of the shadow of Nintendo. Before the Playstaion, few people actually talked about the companies that make their games, only the systems they were published for. Free from Nintendo and under Sony's more "user friendly" policies, Square could gain recognition. That's why so much effort went into VII, it was Square trying to prove they didn't need Nintendo, not because they thought they were going to reinvent the "RPG Wheel".

Besides, when you spend over 7 millions dollars on one game, you better be damn sure it sells well. That's why it had a massive PR campaign. Hell, even FFtactics got in on the action.


8. VIII wasn't the revolution, it was the first game (first FF) to come out AFTER the revolution.
I think you and I have different definitions of "revolution". Now I agree that VIII wasn't a revolution but it deserves credit for trying new things (I know you weren't talking bad about it though).

VII didn't bring anything new to RPGs except for CG cut scenes and it just happened to be the game that is credited for bringing RPG's into the mainstream outside of Japan. The move to 3D is not nearly as revolutionary to RPGs as it was to platformers and fighting games. 3D brought about new advancements for gameplay and changed the genre. 3D in a RPG is a change in visual style and nothing more. Many of the things you feel VII was revolutionary in, existed before it. The RPG genre was already a rich and varied genre before VII came out.

I'd just want to end saying that when you look at FF before and after FFVII it is two completely different things. You are correct in pointing out that it was the culmination of many aspects that were pioneered before it - ATB, battle screens, character driven stories, etc. But in many ways, it completely changed the way these games were made - the backgrounds, 3d character models, use of FMV, sound format, scope and depth of issues covered, disc format, etc. For someone to say that FFVII didn't revolutionise the series is very odd and peculiar to me.
No, I don't see much of a difference, perhaps quality but that's the natural course of action, it's not brought about because of one variable. It was happening before VII it is happening now. I feel you have truly given this game way more credit than it ever deserved.
It wasn't a revolution. To many it was but that's due to their ignorance. For many (and I doubt you are one of these) VII was the first RPG they ever picked up, it's revolutionary cause they never saw anything like it before. That's where all the hype from the PR came from. Not because VII did something wonderfully innovative but rather it was the first for alot of people.

I wasn't impressed by the game as many others are as well. We have all "been there, done that, got the T-Shirt". Now for you it may have been a transcending experience but you need to realize that it wasn't for everyone. The majority of VII's fanbase are people who never even heard of the term RPG before it came out. It opened the eyes to alot of people to a genre they didn't know existed. It did not suddenly transcend the very being of what the genre is supposed to be. II and IV did that.

Now I highly doubt you will stay quiet now...