Ivalice, History, and Morality. The World of Matsuo

[Wolf Kanno]

Most protaganist in movies and video games are saving the world but if you think about it. They are actually just restoring the status quo. Evil comes, terrorizes the world, heroes appear and stop him and everything goes back to normal. This doesn't really happen in Tactics. In Tactics the world starts off miserable, Ramza and Delita are thrust into the middle of conflict and both get to see the world as it really is. They suffer great loss and try to desperately right the wrongs and make the world a better place.

But wouldn't that make Ramza like "most protagonists"? I would say he isn't trying to make the world a better place - he's trying to stop Vormav. After he does that, he basically becomes a wanderer, and leaves Ivalice to what it normally does. People like Olan are still being burned at the stake and Kings like Delita are still despots.

Right now I'm taking a class on, coincidentally, morality (ethics actually), and this thread has made me wonder what classification (although I most of the theorists we study, unfortunately, are english and i absolutely despise the classifications of those...alright i'm not gonna get into it) Ramza would fall into. Most of the antagonists in the game follow a utilitarian form of thought - they justify getting their hands a little dirty, sacrificing a few innocent individuals, for the aggregate utility of society as a whole.

Ramza will not accept this. Even if just one innocent life is sacrificed, even if that's for the greatest good possible, he will not allow the weak to be used and thrown away. Much of it is him redeeming himself for what happened to Teta. But that's not the entire picture. He fights for justice, for the people, he is Balbanes reincarnated, and he can do no wrong, to the point where he will pass judgment on any who do the littlest evil, no matter how good they may be. That's why I consider Ramza "holier than holy" as a protagonist.

I disagree on your first point but I completely agree with your second

First I never said Ramza and Delita succeeded. This is the other reason why Tactics holds my interest cause in the end, both were able to stop a "worse case scenario" but neither was able to make Ivalice a better place.
Ramza misses his chance to overthrow the Glabados Church and Delita may have ushered in an age of peace but he fails to help the common man. As far as we know, he was a good ruler and eventually he was succeeded by other good and bad rulers. It's not like Delita brought democracy to Ivalice, or changed the way everything is run to balance the power between the serfs and nobility. Then again we don't know really anything of what he did.
Ramza never speaks of lofty goals of saving Ivalice, he stands with his higher sense of justice and rights the few wrongs he has the power to stop. I think both Ramza and Delita wanted to make Ivalice a better palce but at least for Ramza I don't feel it was his goal. I believe he wanted to correct the mistakes his family made and in the process got wrapped up into the conspiracy with the Glabados Church and the Lucavi.
Ramza alludes to wanting to make the world better in the first chapter but after the incedent with Teta and the Death Corps. I feel Ramza realized what little he could really do to stop centuries of abuse. I think he lost the ambitious belief he can "change the whole world" instead realizing he can only change a few things and hope that it might make the world a better place eventually. He avenges his father's death, brings retribution down on the House of Belouve, and stops the Lucavi. His first two goals are more self serving and his final feat is something many would feel his sense of justice would not allow to overlook. The wolrd is not necessarily a better place when Ramza retires from the stage of history but I can see through his own perspective that he changed as much as he could.

[Bolivar]

Most protaganist in movies and video games are saving the world but if you think about it. They are actually just restoring the status quo. Evil comes, terrorizes the world, heroes appear and stop him and everything goes back to normal. This doesn't really happen in Tactics. In Tactics the world starts off miserable, Ramza and Delita are thrust into the middle of conflict and both get to see the world as it really is. They suffer great loss and try to desperately right the wrongs and make the world a better place.

But wouldn't that make Ramza like "most protagonists"? I would say he isn't trying to make the world a better place - he's trying to stop Vormav. After he does that, he basically becomes a wanderer, and leaves Ivalice to what it normally does. People like Olan are still being burned at the stake and Kings like Delita are still despots.

Right now I'm taking a class on, coincidentally, morality (ethics actually), and this thread has made me wonder what classification (although I most of the theorists we study, unfortunately, are english and i absolutely despise the classifications of those...alright i'm not gonna get into it) Ramza would fall into. Most of the antagonists in the game follow a utilitarian form of thought - they justify getting their hands a little dirty, sacrificing a few innocent individuals, for the aggregate utility of society as a whole.

Ramza will not accept this. Even if just one innocent life is sacrificed, even if that's for the greatest good possible, he will not allow the weak to be used and thrown away. Much of it is him redeeming himself for what happened to Teta. But that's not the entire picture. He fights for justice, for the people, he is Balbanes reincarnated, and he can do no wrong, to the point where he will pass judgment on any who do the littlest evil, no matter how good they may be. That's why I consider Ramza "holier than holy" as a protagonist.

I disagree on your first point but I completely agree with your second

First I never said Ramza and Delita succeeded. This is the other reason why Tactics holds my interest cause in the end, both were able to stop a "worse case scenario" but neither was able to make Ivalice a better place.
Ramza misses his chance to overthrow the Glabados Church and Delita may have ushered in an age of peace but he fails to help the common man. As far as we know, he was a good ruler and eventually he was succeeded by other good and bad rulers. It's not like Delita brought democracy to Ivalice, or changed the way everything is run to balance the power between the serfs and nobility. Then again we don't know really anything of what he did.
Ramza never speaks of lofty goals of saving Ivalice, he stands with his higher sense of justice and rights the few wrongs he has the power to stop. I think both Ramza and Delita wanted to make Ivalice a better palce but at least for Ramza I don't feel it was his goal. I believe he wanted to correct the mistakes his family made and in the process got wrapped up into the conspiracy with the Glabados Church and the Lucavi.
Ramza alludes to wanting to make the world better in the first chapter but after the incedent with Teta and the Death Corps. I feel Ramza realized what little he could really do to stop centuries of abuse. I think he lost the ambitious belief he can "change the whole world" instead realizing he can only change a few things and hope that it might make the world a better place eventually. He avenges his father's death, brings retribution down on the House of Belouve, and stops the Lucavi. His first two goals are more self serving and his final feat is something many would feel his sense of justice would not allow to overlook. The wolrd is not necessarily a better place when Ramza retires from the stage of history but I can see through his own perspective that he changed as much as he could.

So... how do you disagree with my first point? Like I said, according to your definition, Ramza would be like "most protagonists." This is exemplified in that he's a mercenary and (of all people) Gafgarion's protege at the beginning of the game, he only deviates from that when he realizes that something big is going on.

Also I'd like to point out that Matsuno has expressed interest in developing for Nintendo, both the Wii and Nintendo DS. Could we see possibly a revival of Ogre Battle?

[Wolf Kanno]

My point is that Ivalice is no better off by the end than it was at the beginning. But this all goes back to my first point that Ivalice is not presented as some ideal place that gets corrupted by some no-gooders. Rather it was already steeped in blackmail, betrayal, and bloodshed. Even the supposedly good people are vying for power or at least trying to keep the people they trust, in power.

The differences is the worlds set-up which ultimately changes what Ramza is to the player. He goes through the motions of a protaganist but the subject matter changes how we should percieve him. Of anything, Ramza's tale is a twisted inversion of the classic heroic mythos of Rpgs. This all goes back to my annoying habit of not being able to look at something at face value and trying to find the deeper meaning Just ignore me if you can... like everyone else

As for Matsuno making a DS game or a Wii title, I'm all stoke for it. He's one of my favorite game designers and I would love another Ogre Battle.