Several story questions *SPOILERS*

[Lunatic Pandora]

I just finished Giruvegan and after watching the series of long scenes after obtaining the Esper, I'm left with some questions:

1. When the ghost-like god (forgot their names... starts with an "O") tells Ashe that the Dynast-King used the Treaty Sword long ago to break the Sun Cryst into 3 shards, would those shards happen to be the Dawn, Dusk, and Midlight Shards? If so, why was this done?

2. What was the whole point of getting the Sword of Kings if the Treaty Blade seems to do the exact same thing? I really don't understand the difference between those swords and why the Sun Cryst is so important.

3. And last but not least, I'm some what confused about Dr. Cid's intentions. Yeah, I get the whole part about Cid luring them into Giruvegan so that Ashe could take the bait, but why? I don't see why Cid would lead the opposing enemy into such a Mist-flourishing area where there's all sorts of power. Does he want Ashe and the others to fight back?

Any and all help would be appreciated! Thanks!

[qwertysaur]

I wont use spoiler tags because this whole thread is a spoiler.

The ghost like gods are the occuria

1) The three shards ( Dawn, Dusk, and Midlight) are cut from the sun-cryst. This is to be able to use their power.

2) The swords are very similar. The different ones represent that Ashe was chosen to cut her own shard.

3) At Giruvegan Dr. Cid learnt of the Occuria's manipulation of Ivalice and the existance of Nethicite, he was ispired to take control of history back into the hands of man. The Sun-Cryst is the source of all Deficated Nethicite, which the Occuria control. He hoped the Ashe would realise the same thing at Giruvegan.

More is explained at the Pharos (Your next destination)

[Wolf Kanno]

qwertyxsora mostly explained ut allow me to elaborate...

1. When the ghost-like god (forgot their names... starts with an "O") tells Ashe that the Dynast-King used the Treaty Sword long ago to break the Sun Cryst into 3 shards, would those shards happen to be the Dawn, Dusk, and Midlight Shards? If so, why was this done?

Yes the three shards mentioned are indeed the Dawn, Dusk, and Midlight shards. The Occurians tell Ashe that they chose Raithwall to be the Dynast-King and creat stability in the world. The Sword of Kings was given to him as a sign of their treaty with him. With the sword, Raithwall was allowed to enter the Pharos and cut from the Sun-Cryst three stones with enough power to allow him to conquer the warring lands and unite them under his power. Of course this was the intentions of the Occurians who control human history from the shadows.

2. What was the whole point of getting the Sword of Kings if the Treaty Blade seems to do the exact same thing? I really don't understand the difference between those swords and why the Sun Cryst is so important.

The Treaty Blade is a physical representation of the Occurians recognizing Lady Ashe as the new Dynast-King, chosen by them to destroy Archadia and Vayne who has learned how to control Nethicite. The swords are symbolic and nothing more (which is why they do crap for damage:rolleyes2 )

The Sun-cryst is an artifact belonging to the Occurians that holds immnense power. It's basically the largest supply of natural concentrated Nethicite in the world. Lady Ashe is now going to the Pharos to choose whether she will be a puppet for the Occurians in order to gain the power she needs to destroy Archadia. This is all leading up to Lady Ashe's personal conflict between choosing revenge over helping her kingdom be restored.

3. And last but not least, I'm some what confused about Dr. Cid's intentions. Yeah, I get the whole part about Cid luring them into Giruvegan so that Ashe could take the bait, but why? I don't see why Cid would lead the opposing enemy into such a Mist-flourishing area where there's all sorts of power. Does he want Ashe and the others to fight back?

Cid lead them their for a specific reason which will become clearer when you finish the Pharos. I'm afraid I don't want to spoil it for you cause it's one of the most powerful scenes in the game. As for Cid's personal motive, it has to do with the revelations Venat gave him about the Occurians and their role in the world. I also feel that Cid is a seeker of knowledge, and wished to make the party more aware about the bigger picture...

[PeneloRatsbane]

Cid <3 Venat.

the occuria wanted Ashe to be all revengey didn't they?

[Lunatic Pandora]

qwertyxsora mostly explained ut allow me to elaborate...

1. When the ghost-like god (forgot their names... starts with an "O") tells Ashe that the Dynast-King used the Treaty Sword long ago to break the Sun Cryst into 3 shards, would those shards happen to be the Dawn, Dusk, and Midlight Shards? If so, why was this done?

Yes the three shards mentioned are indeed the Dawn, Dusk, and Midlight shards. The Occurians tell Ashe that they chose Raithwall to be the Dynast-King and creat stability in the world. The Sword of Kings was given to him as a sign of their treaty with him. With the sword, Raithwall was allowed to enter the Pharos and cut from the Sun-Cryst three stones with enough power to allow him to conquer the warring lands and unite them under his power. Of course this was the intentions of the Occurians who control human history from the shadows.

2. What was the whole point of getting the Sword of Kings if the Treaty Blade seems to do the exact same thing? I really don't understand the difference between those swords and why the Sun Cryst is so important.

The Treaty Blade is a physical representation of the Occurians recognizing Lady Ashe as the new Dynast-King, chosen by them to destroy Archadia and Vayne who has learned how to control Nethicite. The swords are symbolic and nothing more (which is why they do crap for damage:rolleyes2 )

The Sun-cryst is an artifact belonging to the Occurians that holds immnense power. It's basically the largest supply of natural concentrated Nethicite in the world. Lady Ashe is now going to the Pharos to choose whether she will be a puppet for the Occurians in order to gain the power she needs to destroy Archadia. This is all leading up to Lady Ashe's personal conflict between choosing revenge over helping her kingdom be restored.

3. And last but not least, I'm some what confused about Dr. Cid's intentions. Yeah, I get the whole part about Cid luring them into Giruvegan so that Ashe could take the bait, but why? I don't see why Cid would lead the opposing enemy into such a Mist-flourishing area where there's all sorts of power. Does he want Ashe and the others to fight back?

Cid lead them their for a specific reason which will become clearer when you finish the Pharos. I'm afraid I don't want to spoil it for you cause it's one of the most powerful scenes in the game. As for Cid's personal motive, it has to do with the revelations Venat gave him about the Occurians and their role in the world. I also feel that Cid is a seeker of knowledge, and wished to make the party more aware about the bigger picture...

Thank you so much. That clears a lot of if it up for me.

So when the party obtained the Sword of Kings from Raithwall's Tomb and tried it on the nethicite they had, did it not work because the sword had been used before? Or did it not work because the nethicite had been used?

Thanks again,

[Bolivar]

Just to clear up a few things that haven't been said (i'm at pharos, just watched this scene twice yesterday):

1. There is a big difference between the two swords. The Sword of Kings is used to destroy nethicite. The Treaty Blade is used to cut new nethicite from the sun-cryst. I'm pretty sure it's called the treaty blade because with it Raithwall was able to subjugate & make peace over all Ivalice. Also, the Occuria want Ashe to destroy Venat above all else, in addition to the Empire.

2. Why Cid sent them to Giruvegan: As Balthier states, this "is just like Dr. Cid." In all FF's, Cid is the seeker of knowledge. At the time we're both at, it's assumed that he wants to find out what happens when opposing forces with Nethicite clash, and analyze the results. This is to further his research on the stones.

To answer your further question, i think the blade didn't work just because ashe hesitated/missed, and they all figured it would work anyway. The sword does indeed work.

Now I have a question:

It's stated that the Dawn Shard has lost its magicks. Is this the same for the Dusk and Midlight Shard, if so, how has the Archadians managed to harness its power? Or did they use it to create the manufacted nethicite? Also, how did the Dawn Shard destroy the Leviathan if it's power is already long gone?

[Vivisteiner]

Just to clarify, the reason the Sword of kings didnt destroy the nethicite, was because Ashe was influenced by the Occuria's vision of Rassler. The vision encouraged her not to destroy it (because the Occuria wanted her to use the nethicite's power), so she missed on purpose.

It's stated that the Dawn Shard has lost its magicks. Is this the same for the Dusk and Midlight Shard, if so, how has the Archadians managed to harness its power? Or did they use it to create the manufacted nethicite? Also, how did the Dawn Shard destroy the Leviathan if it's power is already long gone?

Hmm, I thought the Dawn Shard used it's power when it destroyed Leviathan in the big explosion. Ashe did not know how to restore its power.

Either that, or the experiments Judge Ghis carried out, somehow managed to harness its powers.

I assume Venat helped Dr Cid to harness its powers. I could be wrong, so we should probly wait for WK.

[Lunatic Pandora]

Well, one thing that kinda confuses me is if the Occuria have good intentions or bad intentions. At one perspective it looks as though they want to reestablish peace in Ivalice by getting rid of all nethicite, but in the process they're asking Ashe to completely obliterate the Empire and cause basically more destruction. Is this a good thing or bad thing?

I realize that Ashe must decide between revenge (which would mean carrying out the Occuria's request, correct?) and the restoration of Dalmasca, but how would any of these events restore Dalmasca? It seems that no matter what decision Ashe makes, she'll either cause more destruction or leave her kindgom to rot...

[LunarWeaver]

Nobody in FFXII is good or bad. There are no villains and heroes, only protagonists and antagonists. The characters were given multi-dimensional ambitions intentionally. The closest anybody gets to just being a flat-out bastard is a few of the Judges.

(Only spoiler tagging because I don't think you've beaten it yet. If not, don't read this.)
(SPOILER)That's why Ashe realizes through her time with Larsa that her grudge is not with an entire country but rather those running it. She need not act out vengeance on everybody for the bloodthirsty tactics of a few Solidors. By helping Larsa attain leadership, she can restore Dalmasca and not worry about war with Archadia both. Neither vengeance nor the Occuria's "gifts" of power were the correct option, it just takes her a bit to see it.

[Bolivar]

Well, one thing that kinda confuses me is if the Occuria have good intentions or bad intentions. At one perspective it looks as though they want to reestablish peace in Ivalice by getting rid of all nethicite, but in the process they're asking Ashe to completely obliterate the Empire and cause basically more destruction. Is this a good thing or bad thing?

I realize that Ashe must decide between revenge (which would mean carrying out the Occuria's request, correct?) and the restoration of Dalmasca, but how would any of these events restore Dalmasca? It seems that no matter what decision Ashe makes, she'll either cause more destruction or leave her kindgom to rot...

1. a) like Lunar Weaver said, no one in the game is (supposed to be) good or bad, the Occuria believe what they're doing is right because when you leave it up to man, they end up poisoining/destroying everything, and they feel responsible to take it up to them to maintain order in the world. b) They don't want ashe to get rid of the nethicite, only the empire's nethicite, and to use her own, new stones to end it. Again, it's not good or bad, them wanting to destroy the empire, they simply want to pass judgment on those who have tried to go against them.

Random Observation: kinda weird how law/judgment and order rule Ivalice, and it's also the forces that the occuria believe in?

2. She doesn't have to choose between the 2, the Occuria are offering destruction of the empire as their way of restoring her birthright, and even transcending it by becoming the new Dynast-King (Queen?). The party believes that there's a better way of doing this, by neutralizing Vayne, destroying the damn nethicite, they can do it in a more peaceful and righteous way, avoiding more death and destruction.

Nobody in FFXII is good or bad. There are no villains and heroes, only protagonists and antagonists. The characters were given multi-dimensional ambitions intentionally. The closest anybody gets to just being a flat-out bastard is a few of the Judges.

This is indeed the intentions of the creators, but I would have to disagree with the implementation, there are indeed characters in this game who are WHOLLY evil. (not just Bergen and (kinda) Ghis). see kanno's thread on history/morality in the FFT forum.

[Wolf Kanno]

Now I have a question:

It's stated that the Dawn Shard has lost its magicks. Is this the same for the Dusk and Midlight Shard, if so, how has the Archadians managed to harness its power? Or did they use it to create the manufacted nethicite? Also, how did the Dawn Shard destroy the Leviathan if it's power is already long gone?

The last of it's power was actually used up in Ghis' experiment. The Official guide even says so. But I, like you, remember that the Grand Chief makes it sound like the stone had no power for centuries.

As for Archaides knowledge of nethicite. Most likely, Venat taught Cid the secrets, but they did get their hands on Nalbina's Midlight Shard, which they had during the conflict at the start of the game. It's never stated how they aquired it (to be honest, I only think the Midlight Shard belonged to Nalbina I could be wrong) or how long they actually had it.

[quote=Vivisteiner;2252895]Just to clarify, the reason the Sword of kings didnt destroy the nethicite, was because Ashe was influenced by the Occuria's vision of Rassler. The vision encouraged her not to destroy it (because the Occuria wanted her to use the nethicite's power), so she missed on purpose.

Random Observation: kinda weird how law/judgment and order rule Ivalice, and it's also the forces that the occuria believe in?

I noticed as well, it's even prevalent in Vagrant Story. The law plays a large role in the stories of Ivalice but I also feel the theme of freedom is seen in almost every game.

As for the discussion about evil and good in Ivalice, I also suggest to look at Bolivar's thread "About the Ending" Thread. It's discussion about Delita being a hero is amazing.

The story does have a few purely evil characters, Ba'Gammon comes to mind. The Occurians can be seen as evil or good. On the one hand, they wish for Vayne to be stopped so he doesn's plunge Ivalice into chaos and war, as well as now having the power to challenge them. On the other hand, stopping Vayne through joining the Occurians means they maintain control of human history. Read the plaques scattered throughout the Pharos, they give you more insight to who the Occurians are and about their world view.