It Was The Best Of Times, It Was The Worst Of Times...

[Wolf Kanno]

Taking Bolivar's advice I decided to create a seperate thread for a topic I brought up in another thread. For those of us veterans who have played most or all of the series, what are your thoughts overall about Final Fantasy and where it stands in the RPG genre? What are your personal thoughts of the series itself? The High Points? Low Points? What do you feel were some of the best ideas that should be explored more and what things should never see the light of day?

Be respectful and try not to devolve this into a generic fanboy debate

[ReloadPsi]

Sorry, but this will turn into a fanboy debate at the hands of anyone discussing whether FF7 was a high or low point.

I feel that the PSone era represented the high point of the series, seeing as I live in the UK and therefore didn't hear of Final Fantasy until VII was given a PAL release. FF was effectively made accessible to everyone and FFVII's FAQ page has been in GameFAQs.com's top fifty searched games for about eight years now, proving that people are still playing it. It was the era that got me, and everyone else in Europe, into the series.

Also I'm sure many will feel that the low point began with FFX-2. After FFX, we ended up with a direct sequel that was poorly received (albeit one of my gaming guilty pleasures, along with the likes of Zelda II, Super Mario Bros 2 and Guilty Gear Isuka) and then wouldn't see another new full blown FF adventure for about four years. Seeing as FFXI was only available online it was basically totally blocked off to those who either couldn't afford to play an MMORPG or just plain didn't like them. FFXII eventually did come out and from what I've seen not many people like it. From my point of view, everything seems to hinge on FFXIII being the next truly awesome instalment that everybody will love.

[Hazzard]

I think one of the low points are, retrospectively speaking, when Sqaure always seem to bolster a young teen to be the main character - they do it too much, and they think that adding one older veteran is good enough but sometimes you just want the game to be a little more realistic and not go overboard with the "Fantasy".

[Slothy]

Of course I feel FFVI was the high point of the series being my favourite. I think each FF prior to that improved on the one before it. In terms of popularity the PSX era was of course the high point. It was when FF really exploded into it's place as the seminal RPG series. I do feel that gameplay and story wise we also saw the first low point in the series. Though I like FF8, it's story had more than a few flaws and the junction and level systems were poorly balanced.

I feel FFX-2 was the next low point as far as story, but I have trouble faulting it too much since the gameplay was some of the best the series had in years. FFXII for me though was a high point. It marked some long needed overhauls to the gameplay. As much as I love the older games, a fully 3D combat system with no random encounters was a godsend for someone like me who's been playing these games for fifteen years. I also liked the shift in story focusing more on the politics of what's happening, as well as a group of heroes that are just a small part of the larger events.

I suppose that's the game that I want expanded on in future instalments. I'd like to see the more real time style of the battles continue, as well as being able to see the enemies before you get into battle. Hopefully they continue with the political tone of FFXII as well, but I'd also like to see some more focus on the characters in future instalments. I'd also like to see a return to definite classes for each character. Although some of the later games let you choose abilities and such to make your own classes for characters I'd like to see more distinction between characters at least in the form of more unique abilities. Give me more of a reason to use different characters.

[Dreddz]

FFIV-VII was the series high, if I had to pin point one game it'll be FFVII.

Final Fantasy set the standards in terms of how RPG's need to be made. The series reinvents the RPG formula again and again and leaves every other RPG series in its shadow. When we wait for the next Final Fantasy, were not just waiting for the series return, were waiting to find out where the whole RPG genre is heading. Its all these reasons as to why Final Fantasy is the king of the RPG genre.

[silentenigma]

FFX-2 was the low point. other than that:

[Xurts]

6-9 were absolutely brilliant, but after that they turned into total rubbish. 10, 10-2, and 12 all fail hard. It's been awhile since the main character wasn't an annoying, immature fag.

Other than that 6-9 were the highlight of the series for me, and probably will be some of the best games I'll ever play.

[Bolivar]

lol props on takin my advice, classic title, too.

I think Final Fantasy is the trendsetter (at least outside of Japan). When it debuted it really went beyond all of its peers in almost every aspect and since then it's been the leader. When the series changed again, evolving into something bigger, the other companies again had to follow suit. I have to say I enjoy playing every game in the series.

Now for the high points. I think FFVI has to be one of the first ones you talk about, being that it is the best game in the series. Everything in it was great from the story, to the characters, music and graphics. Every piece of music in the game has so much going on, it is very distinguishable from others at the time, being almost like a play in the Romantic Era. It rightfully was the last 2d FF in that I think it is, without question, the best of the first 6.

Right after that I would have to say the series evolved into something more than just games. There's glimpses of this all throughout FFV and VI, but it really came to fruition with VII. And that is this: after the move to Sony, FF wasn't just games that you played, it was an experience that you took part in. Sakaguchi's goal was to make games that surpass movies in that they make you feel apart of what's going on in ways that film simply cannot. With improvements in video and sound, the things you saw, the music you heard, and the actions you took really made you feel apart of this cinematic struggle.

It's hard for me to decide whether the other highpoint then is either VII or VIII, because it was the former that introduced it, but VIII really took it and built upon it and perfected it. I call these games and the one that came before it the "Kitase Trilogy" due to the similar feel and themes, but mostly because they were 3 games in a row that he directed that really mark a turning point for the series.

With that being said I think XII, although it's one of my favorite games in years, and IMO one of the best out, it was a departure from Sakaguchi's dream. It is a great game, the gameplay is easy yet so complex i feel i'll still be finding new things out in years. It also has an epic storyline and exception contemporary game music to go with it. But that feel, that certain feeling you get when you step into one of these worlds, is gone. I realized this after beating it for a second time and I may write a 2nd reaction thread to elaborate, but that's how i feel in a nutshell. When you buy a FF, you're buying an experience, not just a great game, and to me, that is FFXII's biggest (and only) downfall.

I listed 2 highpoints and I also have a second lowpoint. And to me that has to be FFIX. Don't get me wrong, this game does stand alone and there are certain qualities of it that put it above the other entries. But to me, they tried too hard to make a game that was FF, that they kinda forgot what it's about. I feel the storyline is too generic, the battle system a bit sluggish, and it just doesn't take as many chances as the 3 games before it did. It absolutely succeeds in that "experience" that i mentioned earlier, but something else was missing. If you consider this to be a "Tribute" game, then in that specific confine it works, because almost all of its elements, especially in story, are good combinations of the rest of the games. But it didn't do enough to make it its own specific FF, it's not really distinguishable from the others.

As far as where the series is going, I'm really looking forward to FFXIII, and am eager to see where the man that brought us VI, VII, and VIII back-to-back takes us to now.

[Slothy]

When you buy a FF, you're buying an experience, not just a great game, and to me, that is FFXII's biggest (and only) downfall.

I think I have to disagree on this. FFXII may not have provided the epic "world hinges on what your characters do" experience that every RPG in history has done (though that feeling is certainly still there), but I feel it offered a much more interesting gaming experience in many respects. This is the only japanese RPG I can think of, and one of the few games period, that I feel gave players a complete and fully realized world to delve into and experience. Ivalice was like a living world where you felt like things were happening within it all around your characters as you progressed. The whole thing brought the level of immersion to new heights for the series, and even made me feel that if anything, my actions as hero were even more important. NPC's no longer semed like static information vendors hinting at the next quest, they seemed more like people with actual concerns and lives which made the entire experience of travelling through the world a joy rather than a burden. For the first time in years I actually wanted to talk to everyone and find out what was happening in the world.

It may not have been the cinematic experience of previous games, but I think it brought an experience all it's own that in many ways is a more important evolution of the japanese style RPG than the cinematic aspects were when the games shifted to that.

[Wolf Kanno]

I'll post my thoughts finally...

I really do love this series, I tell myself there are better things out there but honestly, FF has a certain charm that is sorely lacking in other RPG series. Granted they are good as well but it just seems like the FF games bring an extra little spark that make them seem like a real treat. As a whole, the FF series has always been a trendsetter and it always seems to be radically different from any other currently available RPG released around them.

Those who remember the NES days know that FFI was completely different to it's peers in the forms of DQI and II as well as Zelda. It's story had no central antagonist, instead having your party try to save the world from what seemed like a natural force of nature. It's ending was not your standard issued fairy tale ending but rather a thought provoking slap to the face that hinted to a pessimistic, indeed nihilistic view that perhaps working hard is a futile experience.

The other games still continue this tradition of being "something different" and that's what makes me like the series. It spawned the JRPG genre and yet I can' say it really belongs in that particular genre cause it's far more influential and creative.

The high point of the series for me is the 16-bit era, I'm one of those annoying old men who talks about "back in my day...". My reasoning is that these three games are not only where we get to see the very elements that many fans feel are the definitive FF experience first come together but also because I feel these three games hit the perfect balance of gameplay, story, and exploration.

IV brought back II's story centric view with predetermined characters and perfected it by giving us the first character driven story in a console RPG.

FFV perfected the ATB system introduced in IV and became the definitive battle system used until FFX (even X, XI and XII's system can still be thought of as variations of this original system.) another thing V did that it hardly gets credit for is it's strong dungeon and world design. Almost every dungeon in V is unique and challenging and the series begins to finally lose it's "dungeon crawler" feel, and instead the dungeons become more central to the story.

VI not only brought us arguably the greatest soundtrack in the series but VI was the first game to truly bring a cinematic feel to the series (and I'll give Bolivar the pleasure in knowing that I do feel it's Kitase's influence that brought this to the series ). VI brought story and characters back as the main focus and most (including myself) would argue that VI truly has one of the best stories and casts in the entire series. VI introduced a greater social commentary and it's story was less symbolic and two dimensional than previous installments, instead the game felt much more epic and personal. It's writing was more mature and it's characters were written to feel more like real people with real problems and conflicts. To me, VI is the first game to transcend the series from being a "game" to being an "experience". It's introduction of non-rpg elements like the Opera scene immersed the player into the world far greater than previous installments and this is where I feel Vi truly shined. It was the first FF to truly immerse the player into it's world.

Now of course I'm going to add one more game to this list. Personally the game had little personal impact on me unlike the previous ones I've mentioned but it cannot be denied that FFVII truly brought the RPG genre into the mainstream for better or for worse. I also feel that VII was the last FF to hit that perfect balance of story, gameplay and exploration. For that I'm grateful for and it's one of the reasons why I like the game.

For the low point... well FFX is my personal low point for the series. I truly feel the game failed both from a writing standpoint as well as a gaming standpoint. Even though I have major issues with the game I still feel it's better than a majority of other JRPG's I've played. I was just horribly disappointed and for the first time in the series, I was actually bored playing an FF. I usually play these games religiously but X was a bit of a chore to play through.

To be honest, hell I'll say the PS2 generation was kinda've a low point. X was just bad, the move to make XI online only really divided the fans, we got all the bad sequels and side stories to VII and X, and though I feel XII is the light at the end of the tunnel, it's like FFV in the fact that I felt some major things were put on the back burner (I don't think it was on purpose though) in order to overhaul everything that needed to be done to the aging series. I didn't like X, I'm indifferent to XI cause I haven't played it yet (curse you dial up and PlayOnline ) and XII was incredible but could have done so much more (and probably would have had Matsuno not "stepped down" as head of the project)

Then again this was a really transitional period, most of the older major players either quit or were fired and SE sorta've has a brain drain. Nomura seems more interested in expanding Kingdom Hearts, and Nojima and Kitase both seem like they are fawning over the "glory days" of the PS1 generation rather than working on new properties. Division 4 (Matsuno's team) had been trudging through making XII a reality. A game that if memory serves me correctly, started developement shortly after IX was released. In the course of this developement, their leader and mentor was removed.

Of course the real low point I feel is X-2 and the compilation of FFVII. Many of the people of this forum know I am truly opposed to the ideas of direct sequels and connections between the FF games. I never liked X so as one can tell I really disliked X-2, I didn't even feel it was a good sequel and instead the game basically destroyed the few good things I felt X did. The compilation of VII is doing the same thing to VII. The difference being that I like VII and now the spinoffs and sequels are starting to really hurt the original. They either rewrite parts of the story or fail to build on the original IP, rather they add.

This is where I feel most of them fail actually. They don't build on the original IP but rather add things to work for the sequels ideas. This has the unfortunate side effect of destroying the cohesiveness of the world. Spira in X is very different from Spira in X-2. X-2 almost feels like your playing a Twilight Zone variation of Spira. It looks the same but the feel and the rules of the world are completely different. It's felt even stronger in the Compilations. Advent Children is very different from FFVII, just like Dirge of Cerberus is very different from both these stories. Time will tell how Crisis Core will do. In fact, only Last Order really felt like an extension of VII even if it did rewrite the original plot (for the better I might add), but this is probably due to the story revolving around an important and well established part of VII's plot. The only thing the sequels and spin-offs have done for their respective games is tarnish their names.

[Bolivar]

(and I'll give Bolivar the pleasure in knowing that I do feel it's Kitase's influence that brought this to the series ).

YES!!! I WIN!!! maybe this should go in my sig? j/k

I think I have to disagree on this. FFXII may not have provided the epic "world hinges on what your characters do" experience that every RPG in history has done (though that feeling is certainly still there), but I feel it offered a much more interesting gaming experience in many respects. This is the only japanese RPG I can think of, and one of the few games period, that I feel gave players a complete and fully realized world to delve into and experience. Ivalice was like a living world where you felt like things were happening within it all around your characters as you progressed. The whole thing brought the level of immersion to new heights for the series, and even made me feel that if anything, my actions as hero were even more important. NPC's no longer semed like static information vendors hinting at the next quest, they seemed more like people with actual concerns and lives which made the entire experience of travelling through the world a joy rather than a burden. For the first time in years I actually wanted to talk to everyone and find out what was happening in the world.

It may not have been the cinematic experience of previous games, but I think it brought an experience all it's own that in many ways is a more important evolution of the japanese style RPG than the cinematic aspects were when the games shifted to that.

I actually agree with everything you said. If anything, XII is a game that pays an incredible amount of attention to detail. They did a great job at making East Ivalice feel like a real place with real people who all have their own hopes/dreams. But I feel they weren't able to combine the different elements into the game into an experience that truly sucks you in and makes you care about the characters. I understand you feel that way, but to me it just felt like getting through another game. A very good game, but that's how I feel, and I think that's what has turned so many people off of this game, it's not that same feel you expect from an FF. A lot of people were let down (me too at first).

[Rengori]

I love all the FF games... that were made before X. X fails hard, and the FFVII spinoffs are all mediocre at best. XII is where the series begins to pick up again, but the old ones are still more fun.

[cloud21zidane16]

I love all the FF games... that were made before X. X fails hard, and the FFVII spinoffs are all mediocre at best. XII is where the series begins to pick up again, but the old ones are still more fun.

agreed, i like X but compared to the older ones it isnt one of the best

[Hazzard]

I like all the games except IV, X and XII were entertaining for me. Political influence rocks.

[Wolf Kanno]

On a related note. I recently read an article by Edge magazine concerning the FF series and the current projects in the works. It even featured a rather amusing interview with Tesuya Nomura. It was titled Final Frontiers.

What surprised me about the article is that unlike most press written articles, this was not one about the "wonders of Squenix and how they are treating fans to such great delight" Rather the artcicle questions SE's buisness plan and accuses the company of mismanaging the franchise by whoring it out. The main series has always done well but many of the FF related spin-offs are jokes (though the writer did say that Tactics was the shining exception). The article tells a grim tale of Square losing credibility by attaching the FF title to sub par games in hopes of selling them. It goes onto bash every sequel made by the series (Revnant Wings and Crisis Core are hit the worst) as well as games like Crystal Chronicles and the Chocobo series not living up to the quality that the FF title stands for in the gaming consumers mind.

The article continues it's negative onslaught by questioning the reasoning behind the steady flow of remakes. It briefly mentions the idea that that SE is tired of coming up with new IPs even for it's flagship series and would prefer to milk the older games they know to be successful. The most interesting point is the critic points out is the idea that not all of the FF's deserve to have remakes. FFI and II are hit pretty bad but even the recent DS entry FFIII was actually questioned. Even the upcoming FFIV DS is said to be a rather useless venture and the author feels only games like VI and VII truly deserve the remake treatment.

This all goes into the debate of next-gen systems and how it seems like SE is only utilizing the technology for cosmetic purposes. At which point Motomu Toriyama (one of the FFXIII Directors) is quoted to say, "The current generation might be percieved as merely visual leaps but the battle system now looks so realistic that any player will draw more of an emotional experience from their link with the characters: actions winthin the game are presented so realistically that the user feels completely in command."

This is amusing when placed in the contrast of Nomura's thoughts on the subject, (It's a long quote so I'll paraphrase it.) Nomura feels the power of the new systems should be utilized to create a better and more seamless interface. He briefly mentions his issues with the past games combat system being the fact that it's too self contained and static and would prefer a more chaotic and realistic setting where action is happening in places the player cannot directly deal with. His example is being attacked by gun fire on the streets with the assailent in one of the buildings and giving the player the freedom to deal with such a threat. He never wants the player to be taken out of the action and he goes on to describe an interface similiar to a FPS and MMO.

So here's the question, has the series began to slap the FF label too haphazzardly? Do you feel that SE it truly overextending the FF franchise or do you feel they are truly exploring and redefining what the FF name should be? What does the FF name mean to the mindset of gamers in terms of quality and history?

I would also like to note that we should stray from bashing the article (I don't mind a simple disagreement, but I don't need 20 posts of people saying "He's a moron, FF is the best! Give me more!" I need real thoughts on the subject not boorish shout outs:rolleyes2 .)