Most unreasonably disliked FF title! Now with 33% more fan bias!

[Bolivar]

But I have to honestly say, that when peopel criticize the storylines in newer FF games it relies purely on nitpicking which then gets exaggerated.

I don't want to sound undermining, but I think some of you need to grow up and experience the real world before you call the love story "non-sensical". In real life there's plenty of examples everywhere you turn with people giving their emotions to someone who doesn't care about them. I've seen plenty of times when girls or even guys fall for the person who treats them badly, in the worst cases with significant others who are flat out cruel to them. This happens all the time. I felt VIII's love story was a little more complicated than your traditional, stereotypical, cliches video game love story and it added a level of reality to it.

I didn't say it made no sense for Rinoa to care about Squall. People can be attracted to others for the strangest of reasons (lord knows I've seen far more messed up crap with some of my friends than that), so her liking someone who was rude, indifferent, and never showed any feelings towards her is something I'm more than willing to accept. Squall's sudden shift in character though is something else. It's not like he accepted her affection because it was convenient and continued treating her the way he did. He had a massive shift in his attitude and behaviour towards her for no other reason than the writers decided they should be together. It didn't fit his character, and it never sat well with me.

You could look at the first 6 installments and say that they barely have character development at all, villains who are almost completely irrelevant to the plot, and hardly any plot to begin with.

No character development? Have you even played FFVI. There isn't may not be as much dialogue there as in future titles do to hardware limitations, but the character growth that's there is something that even most modern RPG's don't match.

OR you could play these games for what they are and enjoy them, like my man WK said earlier in this thread. I swear internet forums are dominated, or at least infested, by a group of gamers who went through the newer FFs restlessly searching for reasons to hate them. All of the games in the series are great, especially for their respective times, so please, as gamers, as a community, we need to stop the hate.

At what point did I say I hate FFVIII, or any of the newer FF's for that matter (FFIX happens to be my second favourite in the series, and I feel FFX has some of the best gameplay and character development of any RPG I've ever played as well)? You see people pick apart the things they don't like about a game and assume that means they hate it. On the contrary; I love FFVIII. I just hate people who try to gloss over it's flaws and claim it's flawless. The same goes for any game for that matter. Even with FFVI, which is my favourite title in the series, I'm more than willing to admit that the game was far too easy, and there wasn't as much variation between the characters as I'd like. In the end though, it's still enjoyable to play and the story and characters more than make up for it.

woah, woah, hold up. first off, my bad, i didn't want you to take the whole thing as directed towards you, its just your quote was convenient for summing up people's negative views on the storyline.

Second, it's not that Squall just suddenly changed his whole persona out of nowhere. He obviously had feelings for those around them, it's just he kept them all to himself, as evidenced by the first time he really tells Rinoa how he feels is when she's in a coma, on the bridge to Esthar.

He finally learned to let go and open up, and to me that was a beautiful way to develop his character.

Speaking of character development, yes, I've beaten Final Fantasy VI 3 times now. The characters are shallow and they hardly change at all. They just stop being so self-loathing and bitchy after their respective sidequest. Cyan's really the only one who goes through a major change, learning to finally let go. But in the case of the others who change, Terra, Locke, Celes (not really), they just stop complaining. The only real character change in the entire game is a temporary loss of hope, which is quickly gotten over. Boo-hoo.

Once again, I wasn't suggesting you hate FFVIII or the newer ones, but there's a whole army (although still in the minority) of your peers who played through the newer ones with a predetermined view on them. That's all.

[Evastio]

I'd say it's Final Fantasy: Mystic Quest. A lot of people seem to hate it because they think that it was made to insult North American gamers. Sqauresoft just wanted to give the North Americans more RPG experience. It is reasonable to assume that they needed more Squaresoft RPG gaming experience since the Japanese had a lot more of it (having 3 FF games while the North Americans only had one at the time).

It was also nice to see Final Fantasy: Mystic Quest have a few neat differences than the other games didn't (different enemy sprites for all enemies for different HP levels, block moving puzzles in quite a few of the dungeons, not going into enemy encounters unless you wanted to, having your partner be CPU controlled, tresures chest refilling themselves with potions, bombs, and arrows, using your weapons to solve puzzles and trigger switches). Although the story wasn't as good as the other FFs the gameplay made up for it.

[Wolf Kanno]

Speaking of character development, yes, I've beaten Final Fantasy VI 3 times now. The characters are shallow and they hardly change at all. They just stop being so self-loathing and bitchy after their respective sidequest. Cyan's really the only one who goes through a major change, learning to finally let go. But in the case of the others who change, Terra, Locke, Celes (not really), they just stop complaining. The only real character change in the entire game is a temporary loss of hope, which is quickly gotten over. Boo-hoo.

To be perfectly honest, every game after FFVI has about the same level of character growth. VII drops half the cast from the story after the first disc and even then I would only say Cid and Cloud get anything significant. Rinoa, Laguna, and Squall are the only characters who have any significant character growth in VIII. IX has decent character growth but alot of it is either poorly done (Zidane) or never has a satisfying conclusion (everyone else except for Dagger). FFX pulls an VIII and only Tidus and Wakka have any significant growth. And most people feel the cast of XII is shallow to begin with So I would love to see where you get this idea that VI (hell, any of the pre-32-bit generation FF's) has shallow character growth.

To be honest, I feel Cecil and Kain from the archaic FFIV are stronger characters from a writing and story perspective than say Yuna, Barret, Zell, or Freya.

[Bolivar]

Speaking of character development, yes, I've beaten Final Fantasy VI 3 times now. The characters are shallow and they hardly change at all. They just stop being so self-loathing and bitchy after their respective sidequest. Cyan's really the only one who goes through a major change, learning to finally let go. But in the case of the others who change, Terra, Locke, Celes (not really), they just stop complaining. The only real character change in the entire game is a temporary loss of hope, which is quickly gotten over. Boo-hoo.

To be perfectly honest, every game after FFVI has about the same level of character growth. VII drops half the cast from the story after the first disc and even then I would only say Cid and Cloud get anything significant. Rinoa, Laguna, and Squall are the only characters who have any significant character growth in VIII. IX has decent character growth but alot of it is either poorly done (Zidane) or never has a satisfying conclusion (everyone else except for Dagger). FFX pulls an VIII and only Tidus and Wakka have any significant growth. And most people feel the cast of XII is shallow to begin with So I would love to see where you get this idea that VI (hell, any of the pre-32-bit generation FF's) has shallow character growth.

To be honest, I feel Cecil and Kain from the archaic FFIV are stronger characters from a writing and story perspective than say Yuna, Barret, Zell, or Freya.

Wow. I really don't know about any of that, man. To defend my position, I would have to be here a really long time to break down the development of every character, so let's just focus on that last paragraph.

It's hard to take your statement serious, that Cecil and Kain are strong characters at all "from a writing and story perspective", much less in comparison to the latter ones. They are good video game characters, but they only exist and act within video games. It's from a generation of the artform that wasn't taken seriously by creators outside of the gaming industry. The newer ones, expressed feelings like you and I do, laughed and hurt like everyday people. It's unfeasible to even compare Yuna crying to Cecil saying "I'm a coward!"

The emotional pallette that Yuna experiences...I can't even imagine how one could begin to put that below Cecil and Kain... Everyone wants to be taken seriously, and I don't want to hurt anyone, but, are you joking?

To look at the others... Barret represents so many things from the real world that are embodied in everyday people. The conspiracy theorist, the anti-establishment dude, I've had some smoking sessions with some black muslims who are probably a little bit of the inspiration that Nomura/Sakaguchi took for him. He also has a dark past where he blames himself for the loss of alot of lives. Later on in the game he gains retribution. On Disc 2, btw, which is a reason why I was scratching my head when you said

VII drops half the cast from the story after the first disc and even then I would only say Cid and Cloud get anything significant.

After that, I think it would be a little redundant for me to go any further. I think maybe you should give the PSX ones another go, because it seems to me there's alot that you missed. Freya's scene where Sir Fratley simply denies knowing her is a crazy scene that alot of people can relate to. Zell's struggle to prove himself to the world and a bully is something alot of people can relate to. You can relate to the 2d generation fine, but you have to find a way to translate your experiences to the world in the game. Cecil and Kain are a Dark Knight and a Dragoon, their personalities barely exist outside of that, barely cross over into the classification of "human being".

[,,,]

After that, I think it would be a little redundant for me to go any further. I think maybe you should give the PSX ones another go, because it seems to me there's alot that you missed. Freya's scene where Sir Fratley simply denies knowing her is a crazy scene that alot of people can relate to. Zell's struggle to prove himself to the world and a bully is something alot of people can relate to. You can relate to the 2d generation fine, but you have to find a way to translate your experiences to the world in the game. Cecil and Kain are a Dark Knight and a Dragoon, their personalities barely exist outside of that, barely cross over into the classification of "human being".

Your first paragraph wasn't wrong, but I'm wondering how you can be serious about that 2nd one. Kain is a dragoon and barely human outside of that? What? You don't think many people can relate to unrequited love, and close friendships that become rivalries? From that to reconciling with his friend and doing the right thing, even though it's gotta feel like crap for him to watch Cecil and Rosa together, then making the effort to overcome his demons instead of going to their wedding. I don't think Kain is at all weaker than characters from later games. Maybe people tend not to notice the character development in the games they don't like as much? Talk about missing a lot.

[jammi567]

Personally, i think that, although the second generation games do have things that people can refine to, i don't think they properally nailed it until the third generation games.

[Bolivar]

After that, I think it would be a little redundant for me to go any further. I think maybe you should give the PSX ones another go, because it seems to me there's alot that you missed. Freya's scene where Sir Fratley simply denies knowing her is a crazy scene that alot of people can relate to. Zell's struggle to prove himself to the world and a bully is something alot of people can relate to. You can relate to the 2d generation fine, but you have to find a way to translate your experiences to the world in the game. Cecil and Kain are a Dark Knight and a Dragoon, their personalities barely exist outside of that, barely cross over into the classification of "human being".

Your first paragraph wasn't wrong, but I'm wondering how you can be serious about that 2nd one. Kain is a dragoon and barely human outside of that? What? You don't think many people can relate to unrequited love, and close friendships that become rivalries? From that to reconciling with his friend and doing the right thing, even though it's gotta feel like crap for him to watch Cecil and Rosa together, then making the effort to overcome his demons instead of going to their wedding. I don't think Kain is at all weaker than characters from later games. Maybe people tend not to notice the character development in the games they don't like as much? Talk about missing a lot.

I completely understand where you're coming from, but be careful before you start saying

Maybe people tend not to notice the character development in the games they don't like as much? Talk about missing a lot

If you paid attention to my post (rather than skimming through it for things to disagree with) you would notice I used the word "barely." The love triangle is a nice little twist thrown into IV's plot, but it barely scratches the surface of the concept, and really has no reason to be there other than the make the story a little more interesting. I do not dislike the older games at all. I play them all frequently, maybe even a little more than I get around to the VII and the post-VII ones.

But jammi567 summed it up perfectly. The 2nd generation began to scratch the surface of these things, but they seem to never go further than skin deep. And there's nothing wrong with that, it doesn't stop them all from being great games.

[,,,]

After that, I think it would be a little redundant for me to go any further. I think maybe you should give the PSX ones another go, because it seems to me there's alot that you missed. Freya's scene where Sir Fratley simply denies knowing her is a crazy scene that alot of people can relate to. Zell's struggle to prove himself to the world and a bully is something alot of people can relate to. You can relate to the 2d generation fine, but you have to find a way to translate your experiences to the world in the game. Cecil and Kain are a Dark Knight and a Dragoon, their personalities barely exist outside of that, barely cross over into the classification of "human being".

Your first paragraph wasn't wrong, but I'm wondering how you can be serious about that 2nd one. Kain is a dragoon and barely human outside of that? What? You don't think many people can relate to unrequited love, and close friendships that become rivalries? From that to reconciling with his friend and doing the right thing, even though it's gotta feel like crap for him to watch Cecil and Rosa together, then making the effort to overcome his demons instead of going to their wedding. I don't think Kain is at all weaker than characters from later games. Maybe people tend not to notice the character development in the games they don't like as much? Talk about missing a lot.

I completely understand where you're coming from, but be careful before you start saying

Maybe people tend not to notice the character development in the games they don't like as much? Talk about missing a lot

If you paid attention to my post (rather than skimming through it for things to disagree with) you would notice I used the word "barely." The love triangle is a nice little twist thrown into IV's plot, but it barely scratches the surface of the concept, and really has no reason to be there other than the make the story a little more interesting. I do not dislike the older games at all. I play them all frequently, maybe even a little more than I get around to the VII and the post-VII ones.

But jammi567 summed it up perfectly. The 2nd generation began to scratch the surface of these things, but they seem to never go further than skin deep. And there's nothing wrong with that, it doesn't stop them all from being great games.

Someone is getting defensive *eyeroll.* Yes I read your post, no I did not skim it, and no I was not looking for things to disagree with. If you read my post instead of skimming it for things to disagree with (ooooh, slinging baseless accusations is fun!) you'd know that saying Kain is barely human outside of being a dragoon is exactly what I take issue with, as Kain is as strong if not stronger than Freyja or Zell. Sorry for not quoting what you said back to you verbatim, but I thought I'd save myself the typing.

As for the sentence you took issue with, no I'm not going to "be careful" when I say things like that. I figure it's a pretty good assumption by the way you're constantly trying to explain why you think that the newer games are superior that you must not like the old ones as much (Not that you dislike them. Once again, it helps to read.....). If that assumption is wrong after all, which I doubt, then eh. You could never possibly even begin to imagine how little I give a crap.

[Wolf Kanno]

The point of my statement, is not so much to add to the stupid debate of "which generation is better" cause god knows it's irrelevant to me. My point is the fact that I feel the later games (though there are shining exceptions) have some of the same problems I have with the earlier games.

I do feel Kain and Cecil are equally on par with their contemporaries like Squall, Wakka, and Lady Ashe and this is due to the fact that all these characters have dramatic changes to their character throughout the story. By end game they are different than who they began as. The love triangle explains a bit of the dynamics of their relationship, but I'm happy it's never divulged more than it was (though it does play quite a large role), but that's due to my stance that romance needs to play second or third fiddle in stories that are not romances.

It all comes down to perspective, some look at the the old games and see the characters as two-dimensional "puppets" while some look at the later generations and see cliche's that are supposedly deeper cause "daddy hit me when I was little" but in the end the character is still no different than the guy he's based on from a few generations that didn't have some bull backstory to force sympathy from the player.

Barrett may in fact be all those things to you, but to me he was a stereotypical "angry black guy" who decided to add an ecological philosophy to justify his hate of the "man" and the "establishment". He does have some depth in the form of Marlene but I actually feel it's presentation is no better than an older game like FFII or FFIV. This is not a bad thing or a slam. It just shows that you can reach great levels of depth with a character through simple actions and dialogue instead of long drawn out bull that suddenly leads to an "epiphany" for the character about 30 minutes before the game ends.

VIII and four are very similiar cause both games tend to focus on a few key characters while others characters remain the charactures they appear as. Zell really has no developement. I can't say that he even changed a little from when he was first introduced. His growth is minimal at best but his role is more to play a male counter to Squall. But it works for the story in VIII.

But Freya's story ends after she meets Fratley, it somehow gets resolved when we see the ending but I don't remember anything happening to her between the halfway point of Disc 2 and the ending we saw in Disc 4. I love Freya but her character was barely used in IX imho.

Yes, VII does drop half the cast after the second disc. Like FFVI, most of the characters get one token scene and suddenly all their problems are fixed or no longer important (Cloud especially). Tifa gets some growth but I feel Tifa needed more in order to make the story believable and frankly she's the reason why Cloud's story never worked for me. Cid has his shining moment with his story being resolved but what of Red XIII and Cait Sith? Even Barrett really gets nothing, he has a chance when you try to save his hometown from the train but the story doesn't even register he's there. About the only thing he gets is is the brief scene where he explains how he formed AVALNCHE. Even you can't tell me that this scene is somehow deeper than Setzer talking of his former love who taught him to live freely, or Krile talking to Mid about thier grandfathers, or even Rydia's story.

Consequently, I feel Cloud's greatest level of character growth was in AC, which might explain why I like the story better. I told my friend after watching the movie that it redeemed VII for me, cause it finally focused on something I felt the original story left out.

I won't go into Yuna cause she is responsible for me never being able to buy into X's plot (to sum it up, she's a cliche) or cast (cause I can't see them caring about this cliche) and because it would take way too much time and involve me going into my "Why X is a mediocre game". X is still the only game that was boring and unpleasant to play for me.

I don't believe the older games are better than the new generation, just like I don't believe the new generation is necessarily better than the old. I hate debating this cause I seriously feel the games work on an individual basis. I do feel the older games have a greater level of depth than many refuse to give them credit for. I also believe the newer generation fails (exactly like the old generation did) to maximize the depth of their characters and story. I'm not trying to pull one down from the other, I'm just saying I see most of them on a single plain together.

VIII doesn't have anymore depth to me than IV does. VIII's got like 20x times more dialogue but I feel IV was able to tell a compelling and relevant story that can truly inspire you just like VIII did, only in fewer words. Length doesn't mean anything if the writer fails to maximize what he can do. Case in point, you tend to mention the scene where Barrett talks about the social plight of Midgard and how ahead of it's time it is, but the story never really delves into it after the first Disc and even then it's a minor comment here and there instead of being a major focus of the story, so can one say it's really relevant?

It depends upon perspective and the individual. For me, I decided it was irrelevant and so it's not a big deal. Either way I still believe it's wasted potential for the story; it could have had a larger role in the story but instead it's mainly there to show you that Shin-Ra is bad and nothing more. It's almost the same as the Empire controlling towns through martial law in II and VI to me. Of course this is all my own opinion and nothing more so you are free to ignore me if you wish

[ReloadPsi]

Barrett may in fact be all those things to you, but to me he was a stereotypical "angry black guy" who decided to add an ecological philosophy to justify his hate of the "man" and the "establishment".

You win.

[JerseyMage]

Better watch out what you say about Barrett, fo' he gets metaphysical on yo' ass!

[Bolivar]

You could never possibly even begin to imagine how little I give a crap.

Probably not, but if I had to guess, I would say enough to write two responses in which you attempt in the latter to regurgitate everything I say.

If you read my post instead of skimming it for things to disagree with (ooooh, slinging baseless accusations is fun!) you'd know that saying Kain is barely human outside of being a dragoon is exactly what I take issue with

Um, I did acknowledge that... Your sarcasm is amusing but it seems that you don't have much to say about what I actually discussed. Do you feel the "love triangle" does more than scratch the surface, or did your imagination compensate for the emptiness of the thing? I wasn't getting defensive, but it's hard to measure connotation through type. I forgive you

And WK, are you aware you wrote over 1000 words? To me, it's the classic argument you give everytime a conflict of "generation" comes up:

You heavily scrutinize every individual aspect of the newer games and characters while generalizing, overexagerating, and creating synthetic meaning in the older ones, all the while insisting that you do not care either way.

I'm not sure what you're trying to say with "daddy hit me when i was little" stories or "bull backstories". I'm also curious as to what you're trying to get at with Barret. Look at it this way:

Barret is just as much the stereotypical anti-establishment "black guy" as Kain is the stereotypical jelous best-friend. Except Barret's whole hometown was murdered at the hands of the forward march of capitalism. What's Kain's reason? Oh yeah, there is none...

It's hard for me to take the rest of your post serious, especially the end (Barret's discussion of Midgar's situation). It only re-confirms that you indeed missed alot from the games that came out on Sony consoles. For the sake of ",,," not calling this baseless, I will say that 1) It showed that what Japan and America have termed "progress" is not always best for everyone and 2) It is later revealed that it is only one perspective, as constantly throughout the game the player is also hit with reasons on why Shinra is good. And on the 2nd disc, Barret realizes that both sides indeed have their merit, and comes to realize that it's not a clear-cut issue. So if you could explain to me how this development falls under "stereotypical black guy!" and everything else you completely ignore and marginalize, maybe I could start taking you more seriously.

[Wolf Kanno]

[
And WK, are you aware you wrote over 1000 words? To me, it's the classic argument you give everytime a conflict of "generation" comes up:

You heavily scrutinize every individual aspect of the newer games and characters while generalizing, overexagerating, and creating synthetic meaning in the older ones, all the while insisting that you do not care either way.

I'm not sure what you're trying to say with "daddy hit me when i was little" stories or "bull backstories". I'm also curious as to what you're trying to get at with Barret. Look at it this way:

Barret is just as much the stereotypical anti-establishment "black guy" as Kain is the stereotypical jelous best-friend. Except Barret's whole hometown was murdered at the hands of the forward march of capitalism. What's Kain's reason? Oh yeah, there is none...

It's hard for me to take the rest of your post serious, especially the end (Barret's discussion of Midgar's situation). It only re-confirms that you indeed missed alot from the games that came out on Sony consoles. For the sake of ",,," not calling this baseless, I will say that 1) It showed that what Japan and America have termed "progress" is not always best for everyone and 2) It is later revealed that it is only one perspective, as constantly throughout the game the player is also hit with reasons on why Shinra is good. And on the 2nd disc, Barret realizes that both sides indeed have their merit, and comes to realize that it's not a clear-cut issue. So if you could explain to me how this development falls under "stereotypical black guy!" and everything else you completely ignore and marginalize, maybe I could start taking you more seriously.

Wow... that entire retort was not even a retort but a clever attack on me. You basically said I was wrong about Barrett without giving any evidence on the contrary from within the game but instead basically saying "you're just wrong and I'm right!" and then said it was beneath you to bother with any of my more compelling arguments cause I obviously didn't "get" Barrett while accusing me of giving baseless, personal arguments...

Your logic astounds me

First off, you do not know me, so you can't really say I hate the newer games for sure. Yes I scrutinize them, but it's to prove they are no better than any other game. It pisses me off to walk into forums treating FFVII and X like they were the holy smurfing grail of RPGs when both games (though good in their respective rights) are equally flawed as any other FF and any other game for that matter. I actually do have some issues with the older games even from a writing and character stand point but it's pointless to argue cause most people retort with the "STFU Wolf, the games are old and have technology limits!" I still say that's bull and they could have done more or fixed this plot hole or he pacing is off here but no one ever listens... The newer games don't have such technology issues but they still fall into the same trappings that the older games have with only half developed casts, pointless plot twists, and questionable story choices. I'm accusing the whole series of this though; not just the new generations.

I know for many, VII was some life altering, end all be all to existence, experience for many, but to me "...it was Tuesday" I cannot fathom how anyone would think it was anymore special than any other game. I actually like VII, VIII, IX (In fact this thread is the first thread I've ever stated anything negative about IX) and XII. I do fully enjoy the older games and funny enough, I've played them more than the older games and not for the sole reason to find new ways to "stick it to the fanboys" but rather cause I generally like them. Hell IX is like my third favorite game in the series tied with FFV and XII is easily my fourth favorite.

I don't care for X but that's based on too many factors and personally for me, it was inevitable that I would dislike it. I simply don't agree with anything about the game but that's more of personal taste, though I still feel the quality is questionable but that's arguable. I'm sorry I don't see these games as a "second coming" of RPGs or "the genre finally reaching it's true potential". I felt it happened when the genre began and it's been evolving since. Maybe not always for the better but at least it's still trying to be more than it once was.

As for Kain... I don't feel the love triangle was shallow. Certainly Kain could have done more but I feel it's point was to clarify the complex relationship between the three characters and to justify Kain's reasoning for betrayal. To be honest, the amount of detail is no greater than Shakespeare's "Othello" and any theatre and literary major will argue that "Othello" is one of the greatest stories of betrayal and complex love in recorded history. Yet it can easily be argued that the characters have no more history or depth as IV's 2d counterparts.

Also Kain seems to always play second fiddle to Cecil, which is brought to light when he talks about how he chose to be a Dragoon instead of a Dark Knight like the King of Baron wanted and how this decision affected his rank within the kingdom. This scene can be interpreted as implying the jealousy is more than just the "love triangle" . Now you will probably say I'm "reading too much into this" but can you tell me why the scene is in there otherwise? It's not like Kain's the only dragoon in a DK army since Cecil is the only DK in the game. The man has a great wealth of depth and I feel he could easily stand next to some of the newer characters to appear in the series. There alot of depth there but I feel you must have "missed it" when you played the old games like I did for the newer ones.

I don't believe the old games are anywhere near perfect, but I can live with their flaws better; which is why I tend to speak little ill will about them. I still do though, I'm just not as vocal about it on this board. Certainly I have issues with the current main team but that's because X burned me pretty bad so they have to redeem themselves for me. You don't lay an egg like that and expect someone to "jump for joy" when the new project is announced. I'm not that forgiving I'm afraid...

I'm sorry if I feel the older games are actually really good and written well enough to be enduring by even todays standards from an intellectual and mature level. I'm sorry that I don't scrutinize and tear them apart. I'm sorry I don't feel the new games are anymore special than the older games and that even though the new games have allowed some truly remarkable storytelling that it still fails to learn from the mistakes of it's technological ancestors without the benefit of what I feel is actually an irrelevant excuse. I scrutinize them but it's because I don't usually like to sugar coat my beliefs. and even then, I feel you take my opinion too seriously. I usually defend what I feel is looked down upon for no apparent reason but it doesn't necessarily mean it's where I stand in my beliefs. I just happen to like conflict so I tend to instigate it whenever I can

[,,,]

Um, I did acknowledge that... Your sarcasm is amusing but it seems that you don't have much to say about what I actually discussed. Do you feel the "love triangle" does more than scratch the surface, or did your imagination compensate for the emptiness of the thing? I wasn't getting defensive, but it's hard to measure connotation through type. I forgive you

And WK, are you aware you wrote over 1000 words? To me, it's the classic argument you give everytime a conflict of "generation" comes up:

You heavily scrutinize every individual aspect of the newer games and characters while generalizing, overexagerating, and creating synthetic meaning in the older ones, all the while insisting that you do not care either way.

I'm not sure what you're trying to say with "daddy hit me when i was little" stories or "bull backstories". I'm also curious as to what you're trying to get at with Barret. Look at it this way:

Barret is just as much the stereotypical anti-establishment "black guy" as Kain is the stereotypical jelous best-friend. Except Barret's whole hometown was murdered at the hands of the forward march of capitalism. What's Kain's reason? Oh yeah, there is none...

It's hard for me to take the rest of your post serious, especially the end (Barret's discussion of Midgar's situation). It only re-confirms that you indeed missed alot from the games that came out on Sony consoles. For the sake of ",,," not calling this baseless, I will say that 1) It showed that what Japan and America have termed "progress" is not always best for everyone and 2) It is later revealed that it is only one perspective, as constantly throughout the game the player is also hit with reasons on why Shinra is good. And on the 2nd disc, Barret realizes that both sides indeed have their merit, and comes to realize that it's not a clear-cut issue. So if you could explain to me how this development falls under "stereotypical black guy!" and everything else you completely ignore and marginalize, maybe I could start taking you more seriously.

Wow, strike two for you on reading what I said. Actually, I’m not sure exactly what’s going on here. You either didn’t read much of what I said, or you were in such a hurry to “school” someone who was disagreeing with you that you sacrificed small details like “comprehension,” or you intentionally are taking things I say out of context. God, where do I even start? I'll try to do it sequentially.

Probably not, but if I had to guess, I would say enough to write two responses in which you attempt in the latter to regurgitate everything I say.

I was referring not to the entire post, I was referring to if I were (and I doubt I am) wrong about you liking the newer games more than the older ones. A point I mentioned once, just then.

Um, I did acknowledge that... Your sarcasm is amusing but it seems that you don't have much to say about what I actually discussed. Do you feel the "love triangle" does more than scratch the surface, or did your imagination compensate for the emptiness of the thing? I wasn't getting defensive, but it's hard to measure connotation through type. I forgive you

another F for comprehension. You're forgetting what we were actually talking about. The issue wasn't how deep they scratched the surface of the love triangle, the issue was is Kain a strong character. I'll go ahead and answer you anyway, since you so impolitely asked....

I think they did a great job with the love triangle as a component to the story. Kain loves Rosa who loves his best friend, Cecil. This causes rivalry between them as well as the darkness in Kain that allows him to be controlled. The "darkness" and overcoming it is the main part of the story, not the love triangle. Kain regains consciousness while controlled but still fights with Cecil because he thinks he can show Rosa that he's the better man. And in the end, he misses the wedding of his best friend because, even though the last boss has been defeated, the real "evil" is not gone from the world as it exists in everyone, and he sets out to conquer his demons as the woman he loves marries his best friend. By the way, I mentioned this in my first post, thanks for noticing. This story was well done as it was all to serve the main story. Any deeper would have detracted from the real point of the game.

Now back to the actual issue you were supposed to be adressing, Kain's humanity. I would say that yes this makes Kain VERY human, not just "barely" human. It makes me feel like Kain as a character has thoughts and feeling and inner struggles like you and I. He works just as well as some latter day character. I'm not saying he's better than vincent or barret, but he's no less human.

Also, I assumed you were getting defensive not by your tone but by the way you opted not to discuss or debate civilly, but instead decided to address me in a condescending manner. I know I'm WAY too old to be arguing with someone on a message board, but we all have our foxholes on what offends us and what really offends us, and you happened to hit mine. As much as I know I should be the mature person and ignore you, I can't let it go when you try to talk down to me. And don't try to pretend that wasn't your intention,

"If you paid attention to my post (rather than skimming through it for things to disagree with) you would notice I used the word "barely."

is a pretty damn condescending way to address someone. especially since I'm not guilty of any of which you accused me of and frankly I don't see how you could've gotten that impression had you yourself not been in such a hurry to show me who has the bigger e-penis. So yes I responded immaturely, but that's karma for ya. Which segues into the last thing,

For the sake of ",,," not calling this baseless, blah blah blah

Again, a more careful reading of my post and you'll notice the only thing I called baseless was your accusation that I did, well, exactly what you did and just wanted to attack without reading your post. since you were completely wrong and had nothing to base that on, I'd say the word "baseless" is pretty accurate. As for your analysis of barrett I could care less since I never brought up barrett anyway.

Now if you'd like to talk about FFIV and Kain in a more civil manner that's great, but you're not going to act like a dick anymore. I'm not going to use this space to boast about my intelligence, but I will say I'm pretty freaking far from being stupid and I will not put up with being talked down to. Put the e-penis away, cause seriously, no one wants to look at that thing.

[Karellen]

Barrett may in fact be all those things to you, but to me he was a stereotypical "angry black guy" who decided to add an ecological philosophy to justify his hate of the "man" and the "establishment".