Why love Final Fantasy VII?

[Sephitachi7]

Some great stuff here. But I'd like to remind you that this is a game and the creators most likely didn't put as much thought as you are when creating Midgar and Shinra. I believe they just needed some pretty bad antagonists to balance out the fact that the Protagonists were in a terrorist group, which means they also needed to include the side of the oppressed people living in the slums.

It kinda gets you thinking about what would've happened to ff7's popularity if it had been released in the U.S. shortly after September 2001 lol. I'm not even sure if they would've let SquareSoft release it here in the states.

EDIT: Now that I think about it, the protagonists were terrorists in ff8 and somewhat in ff9 stealing the princess and all.

[Bolivar]

Some great stuff here. But I'd like to remind you that this is a game and the creators most likely didn't put as much thought as you are when creating Midgar and Shinra. I believe they just needed some pretty bad antagonists to balance out the fact that the Protagonists were in a terrorist group, which means they also needed to include the side of the oppressed people living in the slums.

This could very well be true, but the literary analysis that toad wanted to bring in the equation (I agree with you, it is irrelevant to judging video games, I said that in my initial post on the matter), alot of the classification that stories get happen by the reviewers who interpret it, even after the author is gone. People still argue today whether the metamorphesis was surrealist, marxist, freudian, or any combination of the 3. Samuel Beckett is widely regarded as a nihilist even though he claimed he wasn't.

Forsaken Lover, I'm puzzled now as to why you made your original statement since you obviously recognize the themes, at least after I blatantly pointed them out to you. And your statement about unions is taking any random piece that marx wrote about, and proclaiming its absence to equate an absence of its theory. That's a fallacy. You could apply any marxist doctrine that is missing from Bertolt Brecht's "A Man's a Man" and it wouldn't change the overall themes present. And again, your concluding statements make me question how knowledgable you are to make your intial refute. Any academician will tell you that communism, as a system, as I already said, is what he wrote the least about. Most would say it's his worst contribution to politics and economics, since it resulted in authoritarian dictatorships that repressed human and civil rights. Most would also say his best contribution to political theory was the interpretation of the nature of power, especially in the contemporary world, which has been largely accepted even by non-marxists, whereas communism as a system has been largely discredited. Most will tell you his best contribution to economics was pointing out the contradictions in classical theory, which probably played some part to leading to the new-keynesian approach. Any self proclaimed "economist" advocating communism, as a system, or that the system was any good contribution at all, would be outcast from the rest of the academic community. I'm going to leave it at that, because this isn't a debate on marxism.

[toad626]

Well, you brought up literature, what do you think liberal arts encompasses? And believe me, in liberal arts classes, we have our own jokes about "hard science" majors. I'm in a class on the history of the scientific revolution and they come up everyday.

How is that considering that one of us can go easily change majors to a Liberal Arts major, do a half ass job and pull A's no problem. Doesn't work in the reverse as a liberal arts major switching over to science would be in for a huge awakening. Liberal Arts isn't a major. Sorry, you can't do anything with that degree. Nothing that will pay anyway. Liberal Arts, It's easy. That's why America is getting really far behind in the sciences these days. Too many people are choosing the easy majors that require much less work. So they won't have to study as hard. Laziness. We are actually in trouble in the states. It's far worse than most people realize when it comes to the sciences... And yes that should matter to you as we make up your medical,fuel for your car, water treatment, energy,etc...

What you described for the older games aren't really themes, they're simple techniques that exist even in the most juvenile of stories. Not only is your argument weak on that point, but your summation as VII for stupid people, containing "not as many (themes)" further reveals how little you're actually using literary analysis for your points.

You study literature and can't notice themes? They are not techniques. They are Classic themes. So Hamlet's soliloquy of suicide wasn't a theme then, it was only a technique? Liberal arts majors, I tell you, what a waste. Convince themselves to promote their own nutty ideas. No wonder there's no jobs for them, and they can only hope to make a pitiful 30,000 a year. Compared to our 50,000, and that's without grad school/research/phd/masters, all options to go into by the way as your basic undergrad fulfills the necessary prerequisites for it. I can move on to a PharmD or Optometry from my undergrad. Anyway the old games, they aren't Modern themes true, but modernism in lit is a different from classic lit themes. And I don't care as much for modernism in my lit, as such FF7 and FF8 are on the ends of my lists of best FF for story wise purposes (only ahead of the NES games), hmmmmm.... Go figure...

Anyone with background in those classes can easily point out that VII falls under the classification of modernism, or post-modernism. The game employs many Dadaist and Marxist themes throughout. This especially puts the story worlds apart from the games you mention. It also throws in a little Romanticism with the combination of the mystical with the secular.

The only previous game that comes close to being placed in a literary category is VI, being somewhat similar to romanticism, with its use of music and drama of the characters, also with magic coming back to exist in the same world with machines.

And as noted earlier regarding FF7 and FF8. That's one of the biggest complaint of these 2 games, was the modernism. It was turned more into Final Sci-Fi instead of Final Fantasy. I don't quite believe that, but I do see their point. The Fantasy wasn't all there in those 2 installments compared to others. Didn't have that mystical magic feel to them. By which I mean mages, big broad knight swords. That kind of thing. Not saying that is what FF is supposed to be, but most def, has been the Fantasy feel to most of the games. Vs the Sci-Fi of 7 and 8. Not saying Final Sci-Fi is bad, but I prefer the Fantasy.

There's nothing wrong with simple dialog as long as the theme is going across as well as the characters. Otherwise you wouldn't have college students reading Harry Potter. That's as simple as they come.
You sound like a leftist with your Marxist stuff. Are you a leftist? I hate libs/democrats/republicans. Libertarian all the way. Only party that is still conservative. But I'm not going into politics. That would turn into Hate.lol.

However, all of this is really irrelevant - no, you definately do not need to be very well educated in order to pick up on what these games are trying to convey. But, if you really want to bring in higher analysis to compare them, there's very little merit in proclaiming the previous ones surpass VII at all. The characters are consistently 2 dimensional and the dialogue is elementary. Everything is presented on the surface and the conclusions drawn at the end are little more than common knowledge that would be universally accepted across cultures. VII's critique of industrial capitalism, on the other hand is a little more thought provoking and is not easy to digest for some who live in such societies.

Base story no, what we are talking about, only the educated would bother to try and find these types of themes. And let me guess, capitalism is bad? I disagree. I have no problem with division. I'm the one busting my ass in school, do I care about those that don't, not one bit. Everyone can work to get themselves out of a predicament to better their life, they choose not too. Granted some have to work harder than others but it is possible. That's just the way it is. Fair that some have it easier? who cares, you can't change it. That's the way it is. Why I hate leftists and people certain politicians. These ideas have always bothered me. And yes I did notice the class division in the game and I rolled my eyes too. Especially when Berrett starting spouting off about that "pizza plate" and what it was doing to the slums. No one forces anyone to live in slums. Always a way out, question is how much work will be needed.

[Bolivar]

Wow. It's like every sentence revealed just how little you know what you're talking about.

1) if you pull a half assed job and get A's you're obviously not at a challenging school for LA. And I know people from my major who switched to mathematics, physics, and chem, so again, you really don't know what you're talking about. And I just got an internship for an international marketing firm, so again, you really don't know what you're talking about. And you're right, liberal arts isn't a major - ITS A SET OF THEM! For someone who puts college on such a pedestal, you obviously know so little about it. The original subject matter of the university was philosophy, history, politics, language, argument, so again, you really don't know what you're talking about.

2) A Soliloquy isn't a theme! Again, the fact that you've already twice revealed your ignorance on what a theme is, I suggest you look at this link. A character talking about suicide is great, but what is the idea the audience is supposed to get out of it? That's what the theme is. And in FFVI, it all boils down to "suicide is bad. life is good." Again, simple statements that is regarded as common knowledge and accepted a priori across all cultures (with few exceptions). And once again, you reveal how little you actually know about the job market today. The business world is looking more towards liberal arts, or social science majors as they typically have better writing, comprehensional, reading, interpreting, speaking, and presentational skills than your average business graduate. Like I said, I study one of the social sciences and I just landed an internship with an international marketing firm that deals with some of America's largest conglomerates. So please, stop being so opinionated on things you know so little about.

3. VII and VIII have magic and swords, so I don't know what you're getting at. Also, "you sound like a leftist with your Marxist stuff"... you wanted to talk literature, marxist themes (again, not your elementary misconception of what a literary theme is) have permeated much literature throughout the 20th century and some of the 19th. You said VII had "not as many" themes as older ones, I thought I'd point some of them out, while you can't even recognize what a theme is, much less point out the larger number which older games have.

4. There are libraries full of sociological, scholarly findings that would disagree with everything you've said in your last paragraph. Also, Cloud himself said "nobody lives in the slums because they want to," so there you go, he disagrees with you, too . And I never said capitalism is bad, so please don't compromise your own integrity further by making me out into something I'm not, so you can continue to spout academically baseless garbage, all the while insisting that only academics could find such conclusions. It's embarrassing to academia as a whole.

[toad626]

Wow. It's like every sentence revealed just how little you know what you're talking about.

1) if you pull a half assed job and get A's you're obviously not at a challenging school for LA. And I know people from my major who switched to mathematics, physics, and chem, so again, you really don't know what you're talking about. And I just got an internship for an international marketing firm, so again, you really don't know what you're talking about. And you're right, liberal arts isn't a major - ITS A SET OF THEM! For someone who puts college on such a pedestal, you obviously know so little about it. The original subject matter of the university was philosophy, history, politics, language, argument, so again, you really don't know what you're talking about.

Times have changed. That's all Gen Eds now and considered by many of us science majors to be a waste of our time. Especially when there's no money in it. I wasn't going to bring up internships. I don't want to brag. I have been offered 2 for summer of 09. And I can't decide which to take as either will determine my end of grad school goal goal. Pharmacy or Optometry. (One starts lower starting but increases to higher than the other eventually.) A real decision for me. 110,000-124,000 or 107,000-136,000 are the articles my college has given me. I'm not in L.A. how dare you associate me with that place. I'm in Orange County. Totally different from L.A. By a up to 3 hours depending on the hour. Plus it's prettier. And it's all about Surf City U.S.A. Way better than L.A. Any university is going to be challenging. Everyone that says others are harder, I don't buy it. It's just some have more prestige than others. But you have to work just as hard at others. Myself I'm at UC Irvine. It's ok I guess on the prestige, it's no ivy or anything, but fairly well known. As for you defense of Liberal Arts being a set of majors. Ah no. It's just taking a few lower division classes from other majors and mixing them all together, with a few upper division also from other majors. That's not hard dude. Like the humanities and arts major is a joke. A few undergrad classes isn't nearly enough to classify yourself as being in a set of majors. The upper division are the classes that matter. Which you probably don't need much of. Nor are they very difficult. They sure don't need many upper division here for the humanities and arts major. It's not hard to BS essays dude. Doesn't work on tests in the sciences. You are right or wrong. Essays you can be wrong and still argue out of it. That's a hell of a lot easier than the other. So you have friends. I've bet they've been complaining since that they actually have to study now. A definite change from their previous major. Doesn't work with science. Major study now. Extra lab time. Rearranging equations. Solving experimental problems. Physical Chemistry will be tough all on its own and I fear that class. THAT'S AN UPPER DIVISION CLASS. Very Hard. But, at least I have to work for it. Face it dude you don't have to study for liberal arts classes. I know, because I didn't study jack for most of my gen ed and pulled a 3.5 for them. Which are similar classes. Just in liberal arts you have more of them.It's an expanse of General education, which in my opinion was a waste of time. And we should do away with most Gen Ed. Why learn crap I don't need that has nothing to do with my future as a researcher or doctor? But I admit there aren't too many Liberal Arts majors at my school. You don't go to a UC to major in Liberal Arts (humanities and arts here). That's a waste of money. Cal State would be a better option for them, as it's like 1/4 the cost. And people know that. UC's are more for the sciences law. Except Santa Barbara. Which is more better known as the University of Casual Sex and Beer. That's for a party.

2) A Soliloquy isn't a theme! Again, the fact that you've already twice revealed your ignorance on what a theme is, I suggest you look at this link. A character talking about suicide is great, but what is the idea the audience is supposed to get out of it? That's what the theme is. And in FFVI, it all boils down to "suicide is bad. life is good." Again, simple statements that is regarded as common knowledge and accepted a priori across all cultures (with few exceptions). And once again, you reveal how little you actually know about the job market today. The business world is looking more towards liberal arts, or social science majors as they typically have better writing, comprehensional, reading, interpreting, speaking, and presentational skills than your average business graduate. Like I said, I study one of the social sciences and I just landed an internship with an international marketing firm that deals with some of America's largest conglomerates. So please, stop being so opinionated on things you know so little about.

And again you fail to realize that anything can be a theme. You can twist anything into a theme with any subject. Scholars have been doing it for years. Why do you think they keep studying that POS Pride and Prejudiced? They are constantly finding new themes in that. The way I worded that stuff, may not have been a theme as it was too concise, but I could easily turn them into one from these subjects. You're nit picking. If I add 4-7 more words they could be themes. I'm being concise. The idea of suicide in Hamlet can be turned into many themes. That's why lit classes are so easy. It's all based on your BS skills in a thesis. Useless studies really. If I can't mathematically or scientifically prove it it's USELESS! and has no relevance. Why I hated English. I was good at it but hated it. There's no problems to solve, boring...

3. VII and VIII have magic and swords, so I don't know what you're getting at. Also, "you sound like a leftist with your Marxist stuff"... you wanted to talk literature, marxist themes (again, not your elementary misconception of what a literary theme is) have permeated much literature throughout the 20th century and some of the 19th. You said VII had "not as many" themes as older ones, I thought I'd point some of them out, while you can't even recognize what a theme is, much less point out the larger number which older games have.

But in VII they weren't tied to the story. 4 tied to the story, 6 tied the story... You didn't go any quest to attain a legendary sword to put behind your old life in 7. The weapons and magic were just there. Ok materia got a few crappy brief lines that made little sense that it formed from mako. And the huge materia lines were even worse. (Though it did form Cid's single storyline purpose of his space dream, so I'll give it credit there because I liked him). But that was it. But compare that wit 6's ideas of magic and relation to the story. I was mainly referring to the fact that many consider 7 and 8 sci-fi rather than fantasy. Take 8, a spaceship, what the hell was that? Related to fantasy or sci-fi? (Don't bring up FF4's ship, as that's more tied to fantasy as it was created with magic and used to transport a magical race. 8's ship was used for the same purposes that ships would be used for in the real world.) And when I say sword I'm talking a broad sword. The kind expected in fantasy literature. With some type of legend behind them. Like Sora's keyblade. Or the one I already mentioned that turned Cecil into a Paladin. Clouds weapons were way to modern looking to be in the fantasy realm. As I said I don't totally buy into all of that, but that's some issues people had with 7&8. Too modern for fantasy. And felt too Sci-Fi.
True but I don't care for Marxist themes. They are a waste of time, and I hate most lit that uses them. If I want to hear that kind of separation crap I'll just turn on that loud mouth Hillary as that's all she talks about is a communist agenda.

4. There are libraries full of sociological, scholarly findings that would disagree with everything you've said in your last paragraph. Also, Cloud himself said "nobody lives in the slums because they want to," so there you go, he disagrees with you, too . And I never said capitalism is bad, so please don't compromise your own integrity further by making me out into something I'm not, so you can continue to spout academically baseless garbage, all the while insisting that only academics could find such conclusions. It's embarrassing to academia as a whole.

All written by people with opinions. They aren't answers to anything. People may agree and call it "scholarly" but that all boils down to opinion and finding people to agree with you. Why else do we keep studying Lord of the Flies as kids? All kids hate in high school yet educators make them read it because they are of the opinion that it's a relative book. Useless. Give me hard evidence any day. Science laws or Math numbers. You come up with something someone can emulate your experiment to see if their results match. That's evidence. Opinion and stats are not evidence. And don't quote cloud. I hate cloud. Sissy emo punk tart. Did you see AC, I thought he was bad in 7...Berrett I like. People live in slums because they don't want to put the work involved to get out. I know I've been to many gov't projects for various work related reasons. Electric, water, that kind of stuff. All over the country too. The people in those places have a chance to get out, they don't take it. It's easier to remain there than work hard at school and land a good job to make something of yourself. Many get on drugs or get pregnant. They didn't have to, they chose too. So no, I don't buy into those types of arguments. I'm talking America of course. Other countries it's different. But we have the freedom to dictate our own future here. And further more if you grew up in a project, do you know how freakn easy it would be to get a scholarship and other grants? Why because it's rare. But it is possible. Too many think you have to be smart to go to college. Not at all. Just major in Liberal Arts.lol.

[Bolivar]

This isn't a debate about college and I'm not going to dwell on it more since i've proven how misconstrued your views on it are. That's for another thread, you could try "Eyes on Eachother" if you really want to go into it. Same for your socio-economic views.

Like your ramblings in the beginning of your last point, the rest is nonsensical or just plain babbling. Again, you clearly don't understand what a theme is. Cecil leaving behind his old life is a cool story, but what is it trying to convey to the gamer? You've yet to name any themes from those games, while I've listed plenty from VII.

[Forsaken Lover]

That's why we need the A-Team and Mr. T to blow up vital reactors, causing ecological damage and death to innocent civilians.
Terrorism makes everything better!

The "class division" in VII is nothing like how Marx presents theories on how capitalism will develop.
You know why?
Because FFVII has almost nothing in common with the real world in its geopoliticial or economic design. The history of the planet, of the civilizations on the planet and everything else has zero in common with any real world history. So, you can't get to Point B because Marx's Poitn A (the history of the real world and civilization which was the basis for most of his ideas) don't exist in FFVII.

You need to get off your high horse. Others might be wrong but being a smug ass about it is just annoying and unneeded.

You also show your utter ignorance of the history of communism by saying communism failed...it was never achieved. THat's the most basic of facts.

[Bolivar]

^ I think you're confused - we're discussing literary themes, not factual representations of a theory. A specific example - Bertolt Brecht's "The Good Woman of Setzuan" deliberately takes place in a society very different from those presented in the manifesto or other writings, yet few would argue that it does not contain marxist themes, as it was the intention of the playwright himself.

[Forsaken Lover]

And your argument of there being Marxist themes is invalid.

There's a giant coporation oppressing people...that means the game has Marxist themes how?
I've already shown you how what Marx wrote and how the game does things are totally different.

Marx said the capitalists in power would maintain their power through...no, not oppressing everyone with military might and terrorism. They'd do it through reforms that would appease the workers.

[Rostum]

It's just a damn video game. If you guys seriously want to slap around your e-penis' to see who's bigger, you might want to go to PM's or something.

[Vincent Valentine 007]

haha this has got a bit side tracked no?

[Roogle]

It's just a damn video game. If you guys seriously want to slap around your e-penis' to see who's bigger, you might want to go to PM's or something.

Please use the Warn Function to allow a moderator to take the appropriate course of action in the thread. Bolivar and toad626, please feel free to create a new thread to discuss the literary themes of Final Fantasy VII.