How FFXIII & FFVersusXIII aim to remain in FFXII's critical shadow

[Northcrest]

I like the FFXII idea . The way u could run from battles I'm all for it. I like how everything was like. I'm pretty much okay with what they put as long as the game can out do FFX or FFVII unlike the other ones.

[Mr Cactuar]

The fact that so many people love Tidus and at the same time a lot of people hate him means that he is a succesful character creation...
When a character really fails is when noone cares about him/her (FFXII).

I don't know what you're talking about here. FFXII was the only Final Fantasy (with the exception of V) in which I actually cared about every playable character (and moreover, the guest characters (SPOILER)Reddas !) as opposed to the others, where there was always at least one character I had no feelings for (Palom/Porom, Setzer/Gau/Mash, Barrett/Yuffie/Vincent, Irvine/Zell, Steiner/Amarant/Quina, Tidus/Kimhari). If any of those characters had died in the process of my saving the world I would not have cared. Even Palom / Porom turning themselves to stone didn't really bother me all that much.

His raising maturity from age 5 to age 8 still didn't leave him any more manly than he was in the beginning. You could seriously tie a great big bow to his head and the impact of his character design would be the same.

He seemed unique compared to other FF characters though.

Unique is not the first word that came to mind when I met Tidus in FFX. Although it was when I met Balthier, Fran, Penelo, Ashe, Basch, and even Vaan. In fact, unique is just a good word to describe FFXII.

If it isn't apparent by now, I very much enjoy FFXII and agree with the original poster.

If you're really trying to say that you care for Penelo or Vaan, you must like your characters bland and useless.

Balthier and maybe Basche were the only interesting characters in the party. People who say they love Fran are just kidding themselves, she has little backstory that's revealed and little to do with the way the game actually lays out. Ashe was just plain annoying, despite having a sweet ass xD

[Roto13]

Yeah, they don't really like Fran, they just think they do. Their opinions can't possibly conflict with yours. :rolleyes2

Now you're just being dumb.

[Mr Cactuar]

Yeah, they don't really like Fran, they just think they do. Their opinions can't possibly conflict with yours. :rolleyes2

Now you're just being dumb.

I'd agree, if Fran had any real character, which she doesn't. I just see her as a filler.

They probably only like her because of her ears or thong. Or both.

[Roto13]

I think Furries are creepy and even I like Fran. People like her because she's so calm and cool almost all the time. (And because when she's not calm and cool, she's kicking guards in the face.)

Also, don't state your opinion as fact. It crosses a line between trying to prove your point and just being an asshole.

[Ashley Schovitz]

Nomura sucks. Hard.

"Hmm, how am I going to make this main character stand out? I know! I'll make him really effeminate! And give him way too many belts! And a necklace we can make real-life replicas of and sell for hundreds of dollars! I'VE NEVER DONE THIS BEFORE EVER!"

Yeah I'm getting tired of Nomura's designs lately they need to change up and maybe go back to whoever did IX's and from VI to below. I didn't really like the guy who did XII's either because the first time I saw the cast I immediately noticed how everybody's eyes are the same. The differences are only in the hair and head structures.

[Serapy]

I think Furries are creepy and even I like Fran. People like her because she's so calm and cool almost all the time. (And because when she's not calm and cool, she's kicking guards in the face.)

Also, don't state your opinion as fact. It crosses a line between trying to prove your point and just being an asshole.

QFT!

[Moon Rabbits]

Nomura sucks. Hard.

"Hmm, how am I going to make this main character stand out? I know! I'll make him really effeminate! And give him way too many belts! And a necklace we can make real-life replicas of and sell for hundreds of dollars! I'VE NEVER DONE THIS BEFORE EVER!"

Yeah I'm getting tired of Nomura's designs lately they need to change up and maybe go back to whoever did IX's and from VI to below. I didn't really like the guy who did XII's either because the first time I saw the cast I immediately noticed how everybody's eyes are the same. The differences are only in the hair and head structures.

Amano did VI and before, I think? I don't really know character designers all that well with the exception of Nomura ... just because his style is so distinct (repeated).

According to wikipedia, IX's characters were designed by one Shuko Murase.

Anyways, VI and XII have had the strongest casts, in my opinion.

As for Mr. Cactuar's response to my post, yes, I cared for Vaan and Penelo. They're not the most amazing characters ever created for a videogame, but that doesn't change the fact that I still wanted both of them to make it to the end of the game.

[Woodinator]

If I want in depth, (debatably) well thought out, technical music I'll go and see what Dream Theater are doing nowadays.

You have Van Gogh's ear for music.

Alright, just because one doesn't look for complex orchestral pieces in a VIDEO GAME, doesn't mean they have no ear for music. I consider myself a fan (of sorts) of classical music (Heck, I've played the stuff for, oh, 8 years now), and I'm actually impressed with the "water-downed opera" in the trailer. Try looking at progression, rather than just expecting a masterpiece outright. Sorry if this metaphor seems out of place, but a young painter doesn't immediatly paint the Mona Lisa.

Also, for when you praised the score of FFXII, there is really only one song that stands out to me from the whole soundtrack and that is Clash of Swords, whereas in the other tunes countless remain locked in my head, for I still find myself whistling these tunes randomly (some of which I haven't even listend to in years)

This is off-topic, but reading you're "rebuttals" reminds me of something I learned in a class my senior year of high school. Something called an illogical fallacy, where one counters criticism by attacking petty "faults" of the other. Seriously, you need to learn how to make an arguement. An "enriched vocabulary" doesn't take the place of support for your claims (Seriously, who responds by critisizing somone's grammar on an internet forum, where it's not considered important. Oh, and I'm aware that this reply is probably riddled with grammatical errors).

[EagleDelta1]

[quote=Woodinator;2397110]

Also, for when you praised the score of FFXII, there is really only one song that stands out to me from the whole soundtrack and that is Clash of Swords, whereas in the other tunes countless remain locked in my head, for I still find myself whistling these tunes randomly (some of which I haven't even listend to in years)

What about Symphonic Poem "Hope" from the Credits?
That's one of my favorite pieces of FF music.

[Gnostic Yevon]

I liked FFXII, mostly for the gameplay aspect.

You didn't go straight down the end of the corridor, there were usually three or four choices of where to go. In the post SNES games, you had maybe a few choices every once in a while -- but most of the time it was a straight line quest. The hard parts of FFXII were often monsters (as in most RPGs), but what impressed me was the puzzling aspect of the level design. You had to solve all sorts of in game puzzles -- and they were all different. In FFX all the puzzles were sphere moving puzzles, and that was all. In FFXII, you moved statues, flipped switches, defeated power-sucking monsters, and so on.

The storyline was fair enough, but if that storyline had been attched to a yellow brick road gameplay design, I don't think I'd have been able to finish it. While the politics were interesting, the characters were about as developed as cardboard cutouts. They start out one way, and low and behold, they never waver. Vaan wants to free Dalmaska, Pennelo is around because Vaan is teh hawt. Balthier starts out and remains as Han Solo, while Fran follows him around like a lost puppy. I never cared about the characters. Quite frankly, I stayed for the gameplay, not because I was impressed by the characters or the plot.

The battle system was OK, but I would have liked it better if there was more need to change things in game. Once I set my gambits, I never really needed to worry about them. Every once in a while the boss battle would require me to switch things up, but most of the time, if I'm sufficiently levelled, I don't need to worry about Gambits. The other weakness was that the game design vertually forces players to make all characters fairly similar -- a BM type character just won't work, nor will a tank -- they all need to be able to use attack magic, defence magic, and swing a mean sword.

The artwork was good, but I don't see a huge difference between XII and X/X-2.

[Croyles]

I wouldnt even call FFXII that mature, it gives the illusion of being mature. While the war story was good, the characters were completely bland and featured no development whatsoever!
The dialoge was good, the war story was good, if sometimes a bit too confusing. It was sometimes also a bit like, so whos on whos side now? It tried to be too mature I reckon.

But thanks for making me feel like a chav or just generally common/mediocre for being excited about FFXIII

[Sword]

After I saw the newly released FFXIII ( Gametrailers.com - Final Fantasy XIII - Dengeki Special Edition Trailer ) and FFVersusXIII ( Gametrailers.com - Final Fantasy Versus XIII - Dengeki Special Edition Trailer ) trailers, I was at once excited and disappointed. It's a progression of FF into the next gen but in a greater sense it remains a regression when compared to FFXII.

Matsuno Yasuno's FFXII is when Final Fantasy grew up--boldly evident in it's art direction, but most conspicuously in it's narrative. It was a narrative flushed with florid, even occasionally literate, dialogue, a story arc concerned with political intrigue and worldly repercussions rather than the vanity of a girl-boy-girl love triangle, and a manner of characterization and direction that placed greater value in nuances of expressiveness rather than the gauche, teenage bravado and superficiality of Tidus, Cloud, Squall, or any of their similar spawn. A Final Fantasy without Matsuno (FF Tactics, Vagrant Story, or FFXII) is akin to a Jerry Bruckheimer production but with a Dawson's Creek ethos slathered in, very thickly.

While FFXII eschewed the teenage melodrama and ungainly storytelling of recent and past Final Fantasies, it also melded the best in western and Japanese RPGs and did away with long outmoded mainstays and annoyances in both: no more random battles or time wasting end-battle EXP/gil summary screens; seamless integration of exploration and battle modes creating an amplified sense of immersion; a choice to micro- or macro-manage battles allowing for leisurely or frantic fighting via the Gambit system; the creative synthesis of single player RPG and MMORPG mechanics; a 3D camera control allowing for full view of Ivalice's grandeur, again adding to the immense sense of immersion; a strong female lead (Ashe is inarguably the lead) who is neither feeble nor whiny nor a submissive stereotype; locales (especially the metropolises) that felt alive with the denizens and not a static contrivance of NPCs. The innovations, evolution, and discarded conventions are considerable. FFXII is not without its faults, even though it's one of only six games to get a perfect rating in Famitsu (not that Famitsu still holds value for everyone), but it does represent the first time Final Fantasy can be considered entertainment for more than mostly kids and teenagers. Along with games like FF Tactics, Ico, Bioshock, and Half Life 2, FFXII is one of those rare times where a video game has a story to tell that won't make you blush too much. It's not on par with finer cinema or literature, very far from it, but at least it displays an ambition to get there someday.

(And here's a decent summation by 1Up's Jeremy Parish of why FFXII "is easily the best in the series": Toastyfrog.com: Compendium of Useless Information : Games - Final Fantasy XII browse )

Those who dislike FFXII are likely to enjoy FFXIII. It's a return to the maturity level before Matsuo came in; a return to the cliches of a vapid but sullen hero with an elemental name (Lightning meet Cloud) and a farcically huge sword, zippered sportswear and asexual garments, and--because of the staff involved--a story that might rival FF7-10 in it's attempt to perfectly mirror a Ben Affleck summer blockbuster with inconsequential love interest and inconsequential ass kicking of inconsequential baddies who are equally as vapid as the hero and his love interest.

And yet inspite all that, I am completely hyped for FFXIII. FFXII's art director, Kamikokuyrou Isamu, is XIII's art director and as the trailer's have revealed, Isamu's breathtaking baroque aesthetic seems to have tempered the plastic, futuristic-sacharinity and over-simplicity of everything that Nomura Tetsuya touches--ostensibly the character designs are still very Nomura. The worlds the trailer briefly unveils looks like something I wish to immerse myself in. The music sounds as captivating, though not as ornate, as Sakimoto's FFXII score. So while my expectations for the direction, story, dialogue, and voice acting remain low, the art direction, music, and gameplay adequately retains my considerable interest and excitement.

As for FFVersusXIII, the music in the trailer while competent does sound a bit like a poor man's opera--watered down for an audience that doesn't know of Bellini or Puccini. The game itself looks dreadfully Nomura. If FFXII is an indictment of the maturity level of previous Final Fantasies and FFXIII a tearing down of the maturity level FFXII had achieved, FFVersusXIII looks to abolish all adult ambitions by winning the hearts of the demographic not quite old enough to get a driver's license--or those who enjoyed Kingdom Hearts. I don't know if I have the patience for a main character more sullen than a Prozac-popper on Medicare and so exceedingly self-absorbed he wears all black cause he thinks it's slimming.

I think it's a bit early to be saying ANY of that.

Yes FFXII was a good game but there was absolute zero character development and character relationships were all over the place. One example of this would be at the end when Ashe shouts "BALTHIER!". I mean there was no need to make it THAT dramatic considering they only talked to each other like twice during the entire game.

For me the return to the Nomura designs is a welcome change, and let's be honest the older games had a more epic feel to them, so if FFXIII is going with that approach then good show.