Garland
The Emperor
Zande
Zemus
Ex-Death
Kefka
Sephiroth
Ultimecia
Kuja
Seymour
Yu-Yevon
(Insert FFXI's villain here.)
Shuyin
Vayne
Clearly, Dr. Evil is the only correct choice.
Ugh. It's like talking to a brick wall.
Whatever. Everyone else in the entire world who has played Final Fantasy XII gets it but you.
Honestly, if it wasn't blatantly obvious from playing the game, I don't think there's anyway to keep it from soaring right over your head.
I'll bold out all the arguments you made that don't really prove he is evil one way or another.Originally Posted by Bolivar
LOL once again you end a response with an insult. Of course much of the cast reflects the grey area - Azelas may be the epitome of it. Every Matsuno game puts the majority of its characters in it, but in every one, there are a few characters who are good and evil.
I find it hilarious that you still insist that Vayne genuinely wanted to benefit mankind. It's bad enough that the people he was trying to rule wanted to stop him, but everyone from his allies (Bhujerba) to his top-ranking commanders (the judge magisters) to even the members of his own family wanted him stopped. As I already said, the only ones who stood by him were Cid and Venat, who both exploited him to achieve their own ends, and Bergen, who was obviously a bloodlusted maniac.
Yet you refuse to confront these facts to continue to insult me, as you do with everyone else I see you disagree with. C'mon now.
People disagreeing with him or going against him hardly mean anything.
Also, he is using evil people to accomplish a good end. Just a method of "The Ends Justify the Means". In some games, even the good guys try to use things precieved as evil to stop the greater evil.
And now, I shall referance X (Bum Bum Bum!!!) to showcase Vayne is not evil.
Look at the Albed. They used something considered evil by the rest of the world to try and stop Sin, along with the help of a few of those non-Albed Crusaders.
For going against their beliefs in Yevon, (Which they believed to be good), are they evil? No, but they used something the convieved as evil in order to stop Sin.
The old Kefka would just randomly pick towns to destroy, whereas the godkefka would wait til someone pissed him off.
Kefka is crazy and power hungry, not random.The old Kefka would just randomly pick towns to destroy, whereas the godkefka would wait til someone pissed him off.
Killing off Doma with Poison? Doma was the enemy, and it's where he was stationed.
Killing Leo? Leo was very just, and would have gotten in Kefka and the emperors way after learning their plan.
Frying Molbez along with them? Probably the most random, but Kefka still had purposes for being their.
Not much Kefka did in FF VI was Random, not even the statue thing.
He saw an opprotunity to obtain greater power, and when Ghestal tried to stop him, he killed him.
Most of the things kefka did had some sort of reasoning behind it.
So I don't think he would randomly pick towns.
When you're the only person who believes what you're doing is right, and no one else agrees with you - not even your own family - there's a pretty good chance you're doing something wrong.I'll bold out all the arguments you made that don't really prove he is evil one way or another.LOL once again you end a response with an insult. Of course much of the cast reflects the grey area - Azelas may be the epitome of it. Every Matsuno game puts the majority of its characters in it, but in every one, there are a few characters who are good and evil.
I find it hilarious that you still insist that Vayne genuinely wanted to benefit mankind. It's bad enough that the people he was trying to rule wanted to stop him, but everyone from his allies (Bhujerba) to his top-ranking commanders (the judge magisters) to even the members of his own family wanted him stopped. As I already said, the only ones who stood by him were Cid and Venat, who both exploited him to achieve their own ends, and Bergen, who was obviously a bloodlusted maniac.
Yet you refuse to confront these facts to continue to insult me, as you do with everyone else I see you disagree with. C'mon now.
People disagreeing with him or going against him hardly mean anything.
Also, he is using evil people to accomplish a good end. Just a method of "The Ends Justify the Means". In some games, even the good guys try to use things precieved as evil to stop the greater evil.
And now, I shall referance X (Bum Bum Bum!!!) to showcase Vayne is not evil.
Look at the Albed. They used something considered evil by the rest of the world to try and stop Sin, along with the help of a few of those non-Albed Crusaders.
For going against their beliefs in Yevon, (Which they believed to be good), are they evil? No, but they used something the convieved as evil in order to stop Sin.
The Al Bhed reference is irrelevant - it was a massive stain on the world that everyone wanted to get rid of. What was Vayne doing that was apart of the population's consensus? What was the greater evil he was trying to stop? What was the greater good he was trying to accomplish? Most importantly - at what point in the game does he actually claim this, in a way that isn't obviously perceived as outright manipulation. He was causing war, not ending it.
I've stated my case, and Roto's refusal to actually respond to my evidence shows that it's pretty much useless now. If anyone else disagrees answer this(which I say again): Hitler, Mussolini, Dr. Mengele, Stalin, Osama bin Laden, all believe they were (are) doing what is right for the greater good.
I'm more illiterate than Bolivar :P
I guess I sort of have a bit different ground of morals, that's why I have a different view about the "evil" term. Killing is killing, hench evil. But I suppose killing without a purpose is more evil, in that case, Kefka.
The point of the Reference is they were trying to make a change to better the world. That was it. Same thing with Vayne.When you're the only person who believes what you're doing is right, and no one else agrees with you - not even your own family - there's a pretty good chance you're doing something wrong.I'll bold out all the arguments you made that don't really prove he is evil one way or another.LOL once again you end a response with an insult. Of course much of the cast reflects the grey area - Azelas may be the epitome of it. Every Matsuno game puts the majority of its characters in it, but in every one, there are a few characters who are good and evil.
I find it hilarious that you still insist that Vayne genuinely wanted to benefit mankind. It's bad enough that the people he was trying to rule wanted to stop him, but everyone from his allies (Bhujerba) to his top-ranking commanders (the judge magisters) to even the members of his own family wanted him stopped. As I already said, the only ones who stood by him were Cid and Venat, who both exploited him to achieve their own ends, and Bergen, who was obviously a bloodlusted maniac.
Yet you refuse to confront these facts to continue to insult me, as you do with everyone else I see you disagree with. C'mon now.
People disagreeing with him or going against him hardly mean anything.
Also, he is using evil people to accomplish a good end. Just a method of "The Ends Justify the Means". In some games, even the good guys try to use things precieved as evil to stop the greater evil.
And now, I shall referance X (Bum Bum Bum!!!) to showcase Vayne is not evil.
Look at the Albed. They used something considered evil by the rest of the world to try and stop Sin, along with the help of a few of those non-Albed Crusaders.
For going against their beliefs in Yevon, (Which they believed to be good), are they evil? No, but they used something the convieved as evil in order to stop Sin.
The Al Bhed reference is irrelevant - it was a massive stain on the world that everyone wanted to get rid of. What was Vayne doing that was apart of the population's consensus? What was the greater evil he was trying to stop? What was the greater good he was trying to accomplish? Most importantly - at what point in the game does he actually claim this, in a way that isn't obviously perceived as outright manipulation. He was causing war, not ending it.
I've stated my case, and Roto's refusal to actually respond to my evidence shows that it's pretty much useless now. If anyone else disagrees answer this(which I say again): Hitler, Mussolini, Dr. Mengele, Stalin, Osama bin Laden, all believe they were (are) doing what is right for the greater good.
How many of these other FF Villians had any kind of world improvement motive?
Vayne is the only one that comes to mind wanting to do it to accomplish something.
Maybe its not exactly removing a hated stain from all existance, but that is still the point. He's doing it for the greater good.
1) There is no evidence in the game to suggest that Vayne honestly wants to change the world for the better. Every character in the game sees through this as a facade for his quest for power - the judge magisters in the scene in the halls of Archades, his own father when talking to Gabranth, Bergen admires him for it, and Venat and Cid would not have manipulated him if he did not possess this quality above others.
2) Even if you could find deleted scenes which prove that he does believe in it - it does not make murdering his 2 older brothers to become successor any less evil. Nor would it make poisoning his father any less evil. Or ordering the murder of the head of Ivalice's religion and the slaughtering countless innocent refugees. Nor would it make ordering an entire city to be wiped out, or endangering countless more innocents than you have already killed with a final battle.
No righteous attitude can make the causing of mass suffering any less evil. Our own history has attested to this many times throughout. This is also the main theme of the game - the conclusion which the protagonists come to at the end.
I have continuously cited evidence from the game in my posts, and have yet to see any from anyone who disagrees. If you still do, I will respect your opinion, I only hope that you can respect mine. If anyone cites evidence from the game, I will gladly look at their arguments and even concede if a better one is established.
The last words between Vayne and Venat.
That doesn't sound like the words of a dying man who wanted to fulfill his ambitions. That sounds like the words of someone apologizing for failing a friend. That alone makes him far less evil then Kefka, Sephiroth, or Kuja who cared for no one else.
1. How many people actually knew what he was doing? How many people actually KNEW about Venat in the first place?
2. Of course bad things are made less bad by good intentions! You're so stuck on this whole "war is bad" thing that you can't see that sometimes it's necessary and the people causing the war aren't necessarily horrible people for it. Lincoln could have avoided the Civil War by not trying to stop the spread of slavery. Does that make him evil? Of course not. He hated slavery and wanted to end it, and the war was the result.
Building on what Roto just said, I'd like to say a famous quote "War isn't about who's right but who's left." If the south won the civil war and some how took over the north, Lincoln would've been considered "Evil." Vayne lost his war, so he was considered evil.
I'd just like to point out something here-Vayne killed his brothers on his father's orders. So, yeah, that doesn't really fly as a "Vayne is irredemably evil" arguement.it does not make murdering his 2 older brothers to become successor any less evil.
I wish I could vote for Queen Zeal.
Oh seriously.I wish I could vote for Queen Zeal.
That or the "Queen of Reason" AKA Valda, the Queen of Altena from Seiken Densetsu 3.
In a way, they're kind of same in their cold methods. 'Cept Valda thought it'd be more fun to start to invade every group possible.
Dr. Evil
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