Gameplay devices that need to stop now

[Wolf Kanno]

So what I conclude from this thread is that none of you like traditional RPGs (well, almost none of you). Modern simply are not role-playing games. I don't have a role to play; I watch a character play their role, which is NOT the same. There is certainly a place for Vaan and Balthier and Basch and their story, but there is ALSO a place for exploration-based and combat-based games. Unfortunately, most people are like you guys; they want to watch a very long movie that they get to waltz through.

I completely agree with this statement and its one of the reasons why I love XII so much. RPGs need to return to the exploration aspect of gaming. It doesn't have to be all story...

Personally, I'm not too enamored with the old RPG battle system. I much prefer a move in the direction of more Action RPGs, that tends to be more interesting.

I don't mind turn based but I can't say I'm fond of Action RPGs, if only cause they are all basically button mashing. Yeah you could cast magic or use skills but its just as easy (and sometimes easier overall) just to smash X over and over to win every fight including boss fights... this goes back to my original statement of most RPGs lacking any real challenge...

Fetch quests that act as nothing but a plot-mover or filler are abominations to the gaming world.

I completely agree (looks at Arc the Lad and Secret of Mana)

Find a copy of SMT Nocturne. If you go out of your way to complete the sidequests and fight all the optional bosses, you'll not only get a better ending but a new uber final boss to fight at the end. Also, unlike most other JRPGs, the game itself is genuinely difficult the whole way through.

I have this game and I absolutely love it! I'm a huge MegaTen fan actually and wish desperately for more mainstream RPG series to start taking notes on what they have accomplished.

I do find it kinda funny how many people complain about difficulty of RPG's. The game doesn't force you to keep upgrading weapons or magic or any of that shiet. If you want a challenge so much then just stick with the basic equipment or something. It's not really hard.

This statement is why the genre is messed up... I know many play RPGs for story but fundamentally its still a game and a game should be something that engages and stimulates the player. When gameplay is reduced to a means to an end to get you from cutscene A to cutscene B (gives dirty looks to FFX and Xenosaga) then what is the point in playing it? Read the script on Gamefaqs and watch the cutscenes on YouTube if you care so much about story. Without gameplay and challenge, RPGs are nothing more than movies. If the player has to create their own challenge for a game in order to make it fun; then the developer has fundamentally failed at making a good game. You wouldn't do this to sports would you? Yeah its fun to add rules once in awhile but the basics of the game should be fun and challenging as well.

[NeoCracker]

Okay people, let me explain the whole problem with RPG difficulty.

It's not that the games are getting easier, far from it.

We, as players, are getting better.

I remember playing a games like FF IV and VI, my first RPG's. Back then they offered me a challenge.

If I were to go back now, I could beat them far easier. I've even went back to play old SNES Rpg's that I missed out on, and beat them with ease. Later in life I notice that RPG's aren't so hard anymore.

However people who are starting off in this Genre seem to find these games I find easy hard. Why is that? Because they don't have the same gaming experience I and others possess.

A person who plays many different shooters picks up a new one and finds it easy? Is this a fault of developers? Hardly, since it's hard to challenge someone who has that much experience at that type of game.

Play so many different RPG's your looking at the same thing. Only when an RPG changes various fundamentals from what your use to will the game be challenging again.

Note, there are exceptions to this, but I seem to notice this has more to do with it then anything.


While I do like a challanging game, as long as it's still fun to play, regardless of how easy, I rather enjoy myself.

[DK]

No, the job of a game isn't to provide a challenge. The job of a game is to be as fun to as many people as possible. Not everyone likes a challenge when they play games. I for one can not be arsed doing things that are over a certain amount of difficulty the whole way through because I play games to kick back, relax and enjoy myself, not to challenge myself at being able to do some stupidly hard things in a game. But the fact remains that if I did desire to do such, I could easily do it by using a little brain power and restricting what I do and don't use while playing the game. Whereas if a game is made stupidly hard, there's not a lot outside of cheating that you can do about it. It's not really difficult to see that.

Edit: fogot to mention, Burnout Paradise needs to get rid of the stupid thing where cars turn out of your way if you're driving in the oncoming lane. Sure, it sounds like a good idea in theory, until you find out that the cars can't actually tell which way you're going, so you go to scoot round their left side to get a near miss to fill your boost gauge a bit and so they swerve to get out of the way...but sweve in the direction you're going. Yeah, doesn't seem like such a good idea as you watch your car crumple up into dust on the front of some idiot driver. Which leads onto the next thing they need to get rid of, the smurfing 10 second wait to respawn your car once it's been wrecked. Not only does it break up the flow of races, it's god damn annoying having to sit there looking at a car wreck and the timer still runs down in a burning route race. How was that thought of as a good idea?

[Elly]

Gameplay timer based on the systems internal clock... i remember when pause meant pause, the phone rings or you need to go to the bathroom you paused the game... if i pause at 5:24:38 when i unpause i want it to still read 5:24:38 not something like 5:44:29... i always thaught the point of the game timer was to gauge how much time you invested into the game but on these new systems that use the internal clock for the timers it seems more like it's to gauge how long the game has been running in the system as opposed to how long i have actualy been playing... i have played a couple that don't use the internal clock and have real pause but i can't remebr which ones they are offhand...

[Roto13]

DK: It's not impossible to create an RPG that isn't braindead easy but isn't hair-pullingly difficult either. Unless you mean you don't like any challenge in your games at all, in which case you should probably quit gaming altogether and take up knitting or something.

[DK]

I'm not saying it's not, I'm just saying it's retarded to moan about games being too easy when it's so simple to make it more of a challenge yourself.

[Wolf Kanno]

My probelm is that I feel with most games these days, I have to create my own restrictions in order to have a fun and challenging experience. I am not even what you would call a "hardcore" gamer. I don't eat Ninja Gaiden for breakfast. I don't mind creating my own challenges but now its gotten to the point where I ask myself why bother playing the game? Since the interface(gameplay) is so poor, why not just watch the story segments off YouTube instead of wasting your time walking to the next cutscene?

I understand where NeoCracker is coming from and I'm not decrying the whole genre but rather the sub-genre of JRPGs cause they have decided that gameplay is just a slight diversion to the next story segment. I feel games have the ability to become a powerful new medium of storytelling, but many are just becoming interactive movies. The waste of potential is sickening.

The problem with RPGs is creating a better method to allow a greater deal of challenge without alienating less experienced players. A difficulty setting! YES a splendid idea! Who would have thought of it? (looks at the rest of the gaming genre) Stat modification isn't enough for me I regret; (SOIII and KH) rather I would like to see better enemy A.I. Maybe make those random encounters a bit of a challenge rather than a one minute diversion where you tap the Fight command over and over.:rolleyes2

I play games for challenge, I find it relaxing and fun. To each there own I guess.

[Spuuky]

Okay people, let me explain the whole problem with RPG difficulty.

It's not that the games are getting easier, far from it.

We, as players, are getting better.

I remember playing a games like FF IV and VI, my first RPG's. Back then they offered me a challenge.

I very strongly disagree with this. FFIV and VI were never hard, for one thing. They may be challenging to new RPG players, but they were never challenging for me. What was challenging for me was something like the 7th Saga (which I replayed this year). What's hard for me is Dragon Quest (which I have replayed for me five or six times). The RPGs that were actually hard are still actually hard. They aren't "hard" if you grind for long enough, of course (except for 7th Saga), but they are much harder than anything from the Easy Era, which started with Final Fantasy 4 in the US.

[NeoCracker]

Those were just the first couple of games that came to mind actually. :P

But I think my point still stands. Of course their are some acceptions to that though. But overall, I can't think of many RPGs throught my life that have been hard after I got the hang of them.

[Momiji]

Been done popa, go play Paper MArio. :P

No no, I mean eliminating the whole experience point systen and implementing something different.

[NeoCracker]

Been done popa, go play Paper MArio. :P

No no, I mean eliminating the whole experience point systen and implementing something different.

Like killing so many monsters to level?

Isn't that basically the same thing, but a kill count instead of XP? Thats basically what you described, and it really doesn't make a difference what way you do that.

Changing the XP system wont' really solve anything though. It's much more of a gameplay issue.

[Roto13]

Chrono Cross had a weird leveling system.

[Momiji]

Been done popa, go play Paper MArio. :P

No no, I mean eliminating the whole experience point systen and implementing something different.

Like killing so many monsters to level?

Isn't that basically the same thing, but a kill count instead of XP? Thats basically what you described, and it really doesn't make a difference what way you do that.

Changing the XP system wont' really solve anything though. It's much more of a gameplay issue.

It was just an example. I never said I was an expert at setting up complex systems.

[Spuuky]

Those were just the first couple of games that came to mind actually. :P

But I think my point still stands. Of course their are some acceptions to that though. But overall, I can't think of many RPGs throught my life that have been hard after I got the hang of them.

The exceptions are kind of my point. There used to be those exceptions that were actually hard, in addition to the generally easy games. Now their are no such exceptions at all, and only ease remains.

It just so happens that I like things being a "chore." It grants me a sense of accomplishment, maybe, when I succeed.

The more I read this thread and think about it, the more I realize that it's exploration that I miss most. At least I have GTA4 soon.

[The Summoner of Leviathan]

The problem with RPGs is creating a better method to allow a greater deal of challenge without alienating less experienced players. A difficulty setting! YES a splendid idea! Who would have thought of it? (looks at the rest of the gaming genre) Stat modification isn't enough for me I regret; (SOIII and KH) rather I would like to see better enemy A.I. Maybe make those random encounters a bit of a challenge rather than a one minute diversion where you tap the Fight command over and over.:rolleyes2

I play games for challenge, I find it relaxing and fun. To each there own I guess.

KHII comes to mind. You go in Proud Mode and the game is still easy. With the exception of a few bosses (which were hard no matter what mode you played the game in), the game offers little challenges in the main plot (I have never tried Sephiroth). That being said, KHII is one of the few games I will pick up just to kill Heartless/Nobodies for fun. I love the battle system despite it being mostly button mashing.