Griever

[champagne supernova]

Serapy, I'm assuming that when you mention Dollet City, you are in fact referring to Deling City (capital of Galbadia). Is this flashback the one in the final FMV? If it is, it doesn't prove very much, because it's Squall, alone in time and space, imagining or believing that the worst has happened.

Time Compression can not occur more than once. In time compression, all of time is bundled up into one moment (keeping it simple). If all of time is in one moment, then there is no time (sorry about the choice of word) for anything else to happen, and therefore, for someone to cast time compression.

When I said "disprove my theory with information", it can be either evidence based or not.

Okay, here is some evidence that reduces the possibility of this theory holding true.

1) No where in the game is it stated or implied that Griever is fictional. Squall mentions that Griever is the strongest GF. Obviously, Squall himself doesn't have it, or any of your party, because it cannot be junctioned or used. The possibility exists (and would seem quite large) that Griever is a GF that Ultimecia brings under her control.


2) Your next bit of evidence was this.

Rinoa: Hmm...so this L I O N of yours, does it have a name?

Squall: Of course. Griever.

Rinoa: So that's what you call it. You know Zell said he'll make me one
exactly like it. Who knows, maybe I can become like a lion, too. That'd
be crazy, huh!? I mean, everyone might, y'know, get the wrong idea
about us.

It implies that she actually likes the norm of Griever. At that time, she wasn't possessed, either. I don't recall any event that Squall has told Rinoa about Griever or implied things about Griever (strength and pride) WHILE she was possessed.
So, how did Ulti knew about Griever? She CAN'T manfiest Griever out of Squall WITHOUT knowing the existence of Griever in the first place, see what I mean? Rinoa IS the only person who knew about Griever, Squall even told her the name.

However, this assumes that Ultimecia does not have access to the memory of the people she possesses. Which the game does not implicitly or explicitly states. In the game, Edea creates the White SeeD ship and sends it off, making sure she never knows where it is. One could believe that this means Ultimecia is able to access the memories of those she possesses.

3) Finally, if Ultimecia did actually create Griever from Squall's mind (i.e. if 1 doesn't hold), then why does she have to have prior knowledge of this being. She is an amazingly powerful sorceress, and therefore should be able to scan everyone's mind, and choose the best imaginary creature. What would the other's imaginary creatures be? Here are my guesses.
Zell: someone's already mentioned it - a giant hot dog.
Irvine: Giselle Bundchen.
Selphie: Something cute and cuddly.
Quistis: a Squall that's in love with her.
Rinoa: Angelo.
I think Griever wins that contest.

In summary, your theory about R=U through the use of Griever is problematic in 3 areas. The first is that Griever could be a GF that actually exists but is only found by Ultimecia. The second is that Ultimecia may be able to access memories. And the third is that Ultimecia may not have to have prior knowledge of Griever to summon him.

I'm not saying your theory is not true, I'd just like these 3 areas to be addressed first.

[Serapy]

Yeah, my bad. Sorry.

Yes, I think it makes sense at some point that Ultimecia created Griever because she thought it was the strongest creature, but I still find that hard to believe because:

Rinoa: So that's what you call it. You know Zell said he'll make me one
exactly like it. Who knows, maybe I can become like a lion, too. That'd
be crazy, huh!? I mean, everyone might, y'know, get the wrong idea
about us.

See the bold part? She says she can become a lion (Griever), and yet in the end Ultimecia transformed herself into Griever (created it).

Let me re-cap, at the time when she says that. She wasn't possessed and is still on White Wings (good) and she said the 'lion' word because it's supposed to represent a good defense or something like that. On the other side, Ultimecia is on Black Wings (Evil) and she created Griever to represent a bad defense towards the Squall and his party in the end because she was "evil", you know what I mean. It's weird and hard to believe that Ultimeca picked Griever out of random because she thinks it's the strongest.

and also I think that, in general, Griever isn't the strongest, Squall only thinks that, not others.

Anyway, I'm not exactly sure how Ultimecia read people minds, I thought they need to be possessed first. What I mean is that if Ultimecia actually read EVERYBODY's minds at all the time, surely she will know what Squall is thinking of how to beat her in that battle? And surely she could have stopped that?

[champagne supernova]

It's weird and hard to believe that Ultimeca picked Griever out of random because she thinks it's the strongest.

and also I think that, in general, Griever isn't the strongest, Squall only thinks that, not others.

Anyway, I'm not exactly sure how Ultimecia read people minds, I thought they need to be possessed first. What I mean is that if Ultimecia actually read EVERYBODY's minds at all the time, surely she will know what Squall is thinking of how to beat her in that battle? And surely she could have stopped that?

Yes, but there is still the rather large possibility that Griever existed throughout the game, and Squall was inspired by this legendary GF into making his ring and necklace etc. And then, in the future, Ultimecia found Griever (the GF), defeated him, and then junctioned him.

There is another possibility that Griever in fact resides in Squall's necklace. Ultimecia was able to feel his presence in it and release him. I still reckon that Griever existed in reality is more likely than anything else.

[Serapy]

His sword too but it just dropped from the sky out of no where in the beginning of the game. Where did that come from? If he actually made it, why did it drop from the sky? Did he throw it? Is it meant to be a symbolism? I made a theory about this; Ultimecia made his sword, ring and necklace and drop em on the ground for Squall because she wanted Squall to kill him in the end. If Ultimecia can read everybody mind and then she dies, then this theory would make sense.

[Marky Tee]

i think that just happens for dramatic effect
dont think its anything to do with the story

[Cloudane]

Yet another r=u thread???

Somewhere (on here I think), I read that Ultimecia's lines in the French version translate to something along the lines of "Suffer from your own imaginations" when summoning Griever. Combined with the Scan readout of "In Squall's mind, the most powerful GF", I find it far more likely that it was a physical manifestation of Squall's fear/imagination, or otherwise somehow created by her by 'reading' his mind. Something like Boggarts in Harry Potter. Rather than the usual theory of it being a GF contained in Squall's ring.

[champagne supernova]

Rather than the usual theory of it being a GF contained in Squall's ring.

And it's not like Squall only had a Griever ring. He also had a necklace, and I believe it was also attached somewhere to his gunblade. IF it was a GF that Squall unwittingly possessed, then why does it necessarily have to be the ring. I was looking at a GameFaqs script, and that person got the impression it came from the necklace. I'll try find a link to that part of the battle, to see what can be made from it.

EDIT: YouTube - Final Fantasy VIII -0189- Squall's strongest GF?! VS Griever
It's a bit long, and seems slow, but watch the first bit. Ultimecia says: "The strongest GF. You shall suffer."
When you scan it: In Squall's mind, the strongest GF. Through Ultimecia's power, continues to fight without vanishing.

Also, judging by the way it is summoned, I don't think she created Griever on the spot, or stole it from Squall's mind. I think that Squall's jewellery was based on the legendary GF Griever, which Ultimecia found. I don't think Ultimecia had the power to just create GFs out of nothing.

[Marky Tee]

i think the theory that ultimecia created griever out of squalls imagination is pretty crazy
if that where true then wouldnt that mean griever was jus a daydream squall had of being or having control of something very powerfull?
doesnt seem to fit IMO

[The Crystal]

There may have been a "real" Griever that existed in stories that Squall had known about, but the only suggestion offered in-game is that it is a creature that Squall conceived of in his own mind, as Scan tells us that in Squall's mind, Griever is the strongest GF:

"Griever In Squall's mind, the strongest GF. Through Ultimecia's power, continues fighting without vanishing."

Further, Ultimecia's Witch Embodiment powers granted her the ability to reach into other's minds and pull things out (as she often displays when completely removing a character's stock of a certain type of Spell). In the case of Griever, she simply manifested the thoughts she pulled from Squall's mind regarding what he believed to be the most powerful being in existence. This would be a great strategical move on Ultimecia's part. This is made even more plausible when examining what the japanese version has Ultimecia say:

Ultimecia: Your feelings, I shall summon the most powerful of things [from them]! The more strongly you feel, that will be what shall torment you. Fufu.

[Marky Tee]

Griever In Squall's mind, the strongest GF.

i would have thought that phrase meaning in squall opinion it was the strongest out of all the gf's would have made a lot more sense than it only existing in squalls mind
infact i cant see how so many would arrive at the latter explanation at all

[Iceglow]

I don't know about creating GF's but I do know that Tiamat WAS a GF until he fell slave to Ultimecia and became a monster, I assume she binds legendary GF's (Catoblepas and others in the castle) to her and through her power of magic they are forced to remain on the physical plane as monsters until they are either released or defeated.

[The Crystal]

Griever In Squall's mind, the strongest GF.

i would have thought that phrase meaning in squall opinion it was the strongest out of all the gf's would have made a lot more sense than it only existing in squalls mind
infact i cant see how so many would arrive at the latter explanation at all

Did you ignore the rest of the post?

[Serapy]

Zell: "Squall's ring!? I dunno where he bought it."

Rinoa: "I want the same one. It looks really cool, doesn't it?"

Zell: "You mean the one with some monster carved on it?"

Rinoa: "YEAH!"

Zell: "Alright, how 'bout I make you one? I'm pretty good at that
kinda stuff."

Rinoa: "Really!? Sure, OK!!!"

Zell: "Let's have Squall show us the real thing."

Rinoa: "...We can't do that."

Zell: "Why not?"

Rinoa: "...It's embarrassing."

Zell: "Say what? Oh..."

Rinoa: "No! It's not what you think!"

How does she know? Squall never even tell her that he's scared of the GF. Any man wouldn't say that.

[Iceglow]

Stop it Seraphy, you're reading way too far inbetween the lines. It's getting FE like now and that scares me, it cannot be good for yours or anyone elses health lol. Rinoa fancies Squall but doesn't want to admit that she needs someone (fiercely independent rebel chick as she is) the discussion about the ring originally takes place I believe in the past and occurs as flashback in to the game at a later point. As the game progresses she generally comes to realize that relying on Squall wouldn't be a sign of weakness since in his own way he relies on his friends and her too. An example of his reliance on them is in the Garden to Garden battle with the Gabaldians, when Zell can't save Rinoa, Squall relies on him and Quistis to lead a successful assault on the enemy base. After the prison escape, Squall relies on Selphie to get to the missile base and destroy the missiles aimed at balamb, the fact he has backup plans is just because he's an elite mercenary he'd be thorough. Add their ages to this, they're barely adults. Think how every other teenager acts about liking someone. "He's so funny and I wish I could be half as funny as him...no it's not like that! stop it! stop thinking like that! I do not fancy him" <--- typical if slightly exaggerated girlie convo between teenagers I know, I witnessed enough of these in college. The convo between Rinoa and Zell is exactly one of these it's where Zell first realizes she REALLY fancies Squall but Rinoa being embarassed for some reason denies it.

[Marky Tee]

Did you ignore the rest of the post?

no no i did not lol

Further, Ultimecia's Witch Embodiment powers granted her the ability to reach into other's minds and pull things out (as she often displays when completely removing a character's stock of a certain type of Spell). In the case of Griever, she simply manifested the thoughts she pulled from Squall's mind regarding what he believed to be the most powerful being in existence. This would be a great strategical move on Ultimecia's part.

this part was said by another forum member and as such is his or her take on things and not actualy evidence

This is made even more plausible when examining what the japanese version has Ultimecia say:

Ultimecia: Your feelings, I shall summon the most powerful of things [from them]! The more strongly you feel, that will be what shall torment you. Fufu.

hmm well since that actualy is in the game its pretty hard to refute and i can see how you might think that
slightly anyway
but it still doesnt necessarily apply to griever
basicly im still not buying lol