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Thread: Griever

  1. #61

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    Quote Originally Posted by thePSgamer View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Serapy View Post
    When I said "disprove my theory with information", it can be either evidence based or not.

    Rinoa: Hmm...so this L I O N of yours, does it have a name?

    Squall: Of course. Griever.

    Rinoa: So that's what you call it. You know Zell said he'll make me one
    exactly like it. Who knows, maybe I can become like a lion, too. That'd
    be crazy, huh!? I mean, everyone might, y'know, get the wrong idea
    about us.
    It implies that she actually likes the norm of Griever. At that time, she wasn't possessed, either. I don't recall any event that Squall has told Rinoa about Griever or implied things about Griever (strength and pride) WHILE she was possessed.
    So, how did Ulti knew about Griever? She CAN'T manfiest Griever out of Squall WITHOUT knowing the existence of Griever in the first place, see what I mean? Rinoa IS the only person who knew about Griever, Squall even told her the name.
    I don't think Ulti has the ability to read Squall's mind, so how? That's why my theory seem to make sense, Rinoa is Ultimecia and created Griever due to her insanity. I'm not saying it's TRUE but it seems very plausible to me.

    In the game, when Rinoa was possessed, she went absolutely mad in the space station = insanity.
    So if Rinoa is Ulimecia, she will become insane and creates Griever because she acknowledged Griever from Squall in the first place. Insanity = leads to unpredictable things.

    There are a lot of evidences that Squall has careless attitudes against his friends, including Rinoa. Yet, as the story goes on, Rinoa always became on Squall's side, caring about him, loving him, etc. Does that sound odd? With my theory, it doesn't seem odd to me anymore.



    She saw it, good faith has returned, after that event, Squall has found her. That's because of Griever, when she looked at Griever, she thinks of strength and pride, so she got good hope.

    -------

    Adel grabbed Rinoa.
    Rinoa passed out.

    When she woke up, this dialogue imploded:

    Rinoa: I...was inside Adel... The young Adel...
    and then Laguna said Ulti was inside Adel. That seems Suspicious.

    You know, the whole event when Adel woke up. The monsters started fleeing from the moon. Yes, the moon where it symbolizes Griever. Seems Suspicious as well.



    I wonder who is that? A new witch in the future? She has similar wings as Ulti, Edea and Adel. Shiva is naked, that woman in the picture also seems to be naked, hmm.
    Theres only one problem with this theory. Rinoa was NOT the only one that knew about griever. Matron/Edea also knew about griever because she was the one that gave it to Squall. Where it originated from is what should be debated.
    Regarding the "Where it orinated from ..." statement, I think I have a made theory about that one last year. Here`s the link. Basically, it explains the possibility of why the symbolisms of Rinoa`s and Squall`s have existed in the game. After having deep thought into the theory, the comparisons are striking, don`t you think? I have a strong feeling that SquareSoft have heard about the history of Artemisia and Mausolus, and then they have decided to use that concept for Final Fantasy VIII. I also believe that they made Ultimecia purely just to emphasise the concept/also the whole game more.

    For gameplay purposes, I believe that SquareSoft initially wanted players to play as Griever. In-game, it prompts you a screen to re-name Griever if you desire so, which shows the same thing for the other GFs. SquareSoft have changed thier mind about this implemention; withdrawing Griever from the gameplay. This implies that they wanted to emphasise Griever more in terms of storyline instead. If they removed Griever out of the gameplay, why didn`t they also remove the 'Re-name Griever' function? My theory has a say about that one as well.
    Last edited by Serapy; 04-22-2009 at 05:50 PM.

  2. #62

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    Quote Originally Posted by Serapy View Post
    I have a strong feeling that SquareSoft have heard about the history about Artemisia and Mausolus, and then they have decided to use that concept for Final Fantasy VIII.
    Do you think they heard about the real history, or the pseudo-history that R=U believers have created for themselves?

  3. #63

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    Quote Originally Posted by champagne supernova View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Serapy View Post
    I have a strong feeling that SquareSoft have heard about the history about Artemisia and Mausolus, and then they have decided to use that concept for Final Fantasy VIII.
    Do you think they heard about the real history, or the pseudo-history that R=U believers have created for themselves?
    I doubt it. If they have never heard of Artemisia and Mausolus before, then they must be EXTREMELY lucky to make the elements of Squall/Rinoa/Ultimecia become a pure coincidence by accident, which is rather unlikely, don`t you think? There are so many religious stuff in the game, so they must have heard of these before as well.

  4. #64

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    BY THE WAY SERAPY:

    I don't think Ulti has the ability to read Squall's mind, so how? That's why my theory seem to make sense, Rinoa is Ultimecia and created Griever due to her insanity. I'm not saying it's TRUE but it seems very plausible to me.
    Actually you are wrong with this theory. Ultimecia DOES have the abilities to read other peoples minds. Its in the ultimania guide, and on the official final fantasy wikia

    Quoting from the Ultimania Guide:

    The creation of Griever delves into another remarkable skill Ultimecia possesses, her ability to manifest and give life to subconscious thoughts, including Guardian Forces. Ultimecia manifested and extracted Griever from Squall's subconscious mind. She found Griever to be Squall's conception of the most powerful force that could exist, and thus brought him to life for battle against Squall himself. Griever did not exist as a Guardian Force until the moment he was given life through Ultimecia's powers.
    My theory:

    Ultimecia can look into peoples minds. She does this when she looks into her own mind to create her ultimate spell. Whats from stopping her looking into squalls mind and finding griever? So NO, I 100% don't believe griever came from Rinoa.

    Why? Well Squall is the "legendary SeeD" right? Why wouldn't ultimecia look into his mind to find the ultimate ideal that drives squall and then use it against him?

    Flaw #1 in the R=U Theory.

    Next, we have the sorceress lifespan. As you all know from the Ultimania guide sorceress live normal lifespans. How in the world could Rinoa live on for generations? I think its pretty stupid to say that HEY since theres no other soceresses ever to come about again after rinoa shes gonna live forever! I think this is undoubtly the dumbest arguement there is for the R=U theory.

    Flaw #2 in the R=U Theory.

    Another thing comes to mind when Ultimecia possess rinoa to go break Adel out of her seal. She then LEAVES rinoa out in space to die. Now this idea can be taken in two ways, ultimecia would effectively be killling herself in fact she was rinoa, OR she knew who she was and knew what was going to happen. Now riddle me this, if she knew what was going to happen (i.e squall saving rinoa) how does she not know Squall or Rinoa when they get to her castle? AND how does she NOT know that Squall and the gang are going to use time compression to get to her castle? Then again with this argument can be debated over the 2 universes arugment. However I believe that is way too technically detailed to get into, and that its being blown out of proportions. My take on it is if there was a 2nd universe, then time compression would cause a alternate timeline when they returned to there time. Like I said its way to complicated for even a games stand point, and I think its totally absurd.

    The 3rd Flaw in the R=U Theory.

    The 4th flaw is my own judgement on the R=U Theory. I think its totally, and utterly absurd. There are some common happenings but nothing concrete for evidence; hence Rinoa != Ultimecia and this was just a ploy be Squaresoft to get people to talk about there game...A DECADE LATER. Thats what makes it such a good game.


    I could go on and on about my theories and what-not but I want to see my ideals get debated.

    Finally, its a love story with a happy ending. Lets just leave it at that?
    Last edited by thePSgamer; 04-28-2009 at 04:23 AM.

  5. #65

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    There is no point in agruing about R=U because it`s impossible to know for sure. Determing whether the theory is 100% proven correct or incorrect is impossible. We have been there a lot before. We can agrue about R=U everyday, it will become endless and endless till our world drops from the universe for good. In the past, I have agrued about the validity of R=U many times that it`s wrong. Guess what? I became dissatisfied, because things went out of no where. You know what I did next? I`ve begun agruing that R=U is right on a different forum. Guess what? I get the same result, exactly the same result when I was agruing that R=U is wrong. I have provided evidence on both sides too. I do not wish to go into this again.

    Quote Originally Posted by thePSgamer
    Actually you are wrong with this theory. Ultimecia DOES have the abilities to read other peoples minds. Its in the ultimania guide, and on the official final fantasy wikia
    I`ll comment on this statement since it doesn`t relate to R=U.

    Anyway, no, not exactly. If Ultimecia can read people minds with ease, then Final Fantasy VIII would be a completely different story. She needs to possesses someone IN ORDER to read his/her mind. Squall didn`t get possessed by herself.

    However, Rinoa acknowledged that Griever is such of utmost importance to Squall because he told her about it. Later in the game, she gets possessed by Ultimecia. It`s very likely that Ultimecia have learnt something about Griever and used it as her defence at the end of the game. The "strongest GF in the mind of Squall " quote was an assumption that Ultimecia has made when reading Rinoa`s mind.

    Also, when Ultimecia possessed Matron. She learnt something about Ellone since Ellone used to be in care of Marton at the orphanage. That's how Ultimecia has begun looking for her.

  6. #66

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    Quote Originally Posted by Serapy View Post
    There is no point in agruing about R=U because it`s impossible to know for sure. Determing whether the theory is 100% proven correct or incorrect is impossible. We have been there a lot before. We can agrue about R=U everyday, it will become endless and endless till our world drops from the universe for good. In the past, I have agrued about the validity of R=U many times that it`s wrong. Guess what? I became dissatisfied, because things went out of no where. You know what I did next? I`ve begun agruing that R=U is right on a different forum. Guess what? I get the same result, exactly the same result when I was agruing that R=U is wrong. I have provided evidence on both sides too. I do not wish to go into this again.

    Quote Originally Posted by thePSgamer
    Actually you are wrong with this theory. Ultimecia DOES have the abilities to read other peoples minds. Its in the ultimania guide, and on the official final fantasy wikia
    I`ll comment on this statement since it doesn`t relate to R=U.

    Anyway, no, not exactly. If Ultimecia can read people minds with ease, then Final Fantasy VIII would be a completely different story. She needs to possesses someone IN ORDER to read his/her mind. Squall didn`t get possessed by herself.

    However, Rinoa acknowledged that Griever is such of utmost importance to Squall because he told her about it. Later in the game, she gets possessed by Ultimecia. It`s very likely that Ultimecia have learnt something about Griever and used it as her defence at the end of the game. The "strongest GF in the mind of Squall " quote was an assumption that Ultimecia has made when reading Rinoa`s mind.

    Also, when Ultimecia possessed Matron. She learnt something about Ellone since Ellone used to be in care of Marton at the orphanage. That's how Ultimecia has begun looking for her.
    For what I said is debatable yes, but your last state about Ultimecia not knowing about Ellone is totally incorrect. If you remember what Odine says, she (meaning ultimecia) has the machine Junction Ellone. So yes she probably does have SOME idea of who Ellone is, and that is her reason and her way to get her mind into the past.

    However I do agree with you that there is no point arguing the theory, even though its fun to debate

  7. #67

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    rinoa ultimecia edea adel are all witches and when rinoa was possesed the images of squall i.e. griever flooded into her mind which in turn flooded into the minds of the other witches and when you fight ultimecia she uses the image of griever to try and scare squall and rinoa into backing down from the fight it's that simple people

  8. #68

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    Quote Originally Posted by thePSgamer View Post
    Actually you are wrong with this theory. Ultimecia DOES have the abilities to read other peoples minds. Its in the ultimania guide, and on the official final fantasy wikia

    The Ultimania books are not canon. Neither is anything that is said, written or otherwise stated in any way by Square Enix when concerning the Square Final Fantasy series of games.

    The Ultimania books for VII and VIII are both utter travesties, flabbergastingly ludicrous, replete with contradictions and nonsensical absurdities.

    I do think, that it is interesting to note, that often when people are having a debate concerning some part of the plot of VII or VIII, people tend to point to the Ultimania books when defending their personal opinion regarding the game. And in nearly every case, it is done so to help support some absurd idea that only exists outside the actual game, and which often even directly contradicts the already established content of the game itself, defying the apparent and obvious things contained within the game's story.

    And yet they, the books, are still continued to be used. And in the same manner. Amusing.

    Yes, the books themselves can be pretty amusing. Especially the VII Ultimania. If you've played the game, then I suggest you read the book just to be amazed at the level of distortions, preposterous claims, and the plainly erroneous nature of it.

    But what makes it amusing, is that people point to them and quote them. The actual books themselves are not funny in any way.

    So, yes - of course - the Ultimania books do not apply here nor anywhere else. They may perhaps be considered something of a fanfictious-like third-party retconning attempt, but that's about it. And if you seek expanded FF universes, there's a lot of actual independent fanfic writers out there who've done a much better job of that than what has been construed together by Square Enix.


    Anyway, there's also no official FF wiki. Even if there was one, and it had been labeled and declared "official" by Square Enix, then, that wouldn't really change anything; for as humanity is beginning to re-discover, just because something is "official" doesn't mean it's actually true or right; in fact, more than often, the opposite is the case.





  9. #69

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    Quote Originally Posted by thePSgamer
    For what I said is debatable yes, but your last state about Ultimecia not knowing about Ellone is totally incorrect. If you remember what Odine says, she (meaning ultimecia) has the machine Junction Ellone. So yes she probably does have SOME idea of who Ellone is, and that is her reason and her way to get her mind into the past.
    Just because Ultimecia uses the power, it doesn`t mean she automatically acknowledges the minds of everybody existing in the world. Targetting and focusing on the power does not grant Ultimecia to learn everything else inside Ellone`s mind. She needs to possesses Ellone in order to acknowledge her mind, but that can`t be possible because Ellone is not a sorceress. The only time she learnt about Ellone was when she possessed Matron since Ellone was in Matron`s orphanage. It`s very likely that Matron knew about Ellone's power. And that`s why Ellone left the orphanage so early.

    Nonetheless, if what you said was the case. The goals of Ultimecia`s would be reached EARLIER!

    Michael Tsarion, you have got that very spot on. That is why people should not use the excuse (Ultimania guide) to disbelieve R=U.

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