Is Sephiroth actually Jenova?

[Dr. Acula]

I always thought it was Sephiroth, walking around carrying bits of Jenova, and everytime he encountered the party he'd be like, "Eat Jenova!" and throw an arm or something at them. Guess I should have paid more attention, I got really confused...

[The Crystal]

No.1 The flying Sephiroth was not the real Sephiroth. It was Jenova. The "real" Sephiroth is a corpse encased in Materia crystal.

I know. This is why I said the real Sephiroth only flew after he became Safer Sephiroth(the guy with the wings), and in the end of AC.

No.2 I believe DM is referring to the part where Sephiroth is found in the materia because that is when CLOUD is hovering and walking around on the freaking ceiling. Hooah!

He was being controled by Sephiroth at the moment. Considering the fact Sephiroth was holding the party in the air(while crushing their bodies) before the fight with Bizarro, I don't see why he couldn't make Cloud walk on the "ceiling".
Cloud by himself(or any other person injected with J-cells, with exception of Sephiroth of course), can't do that. Proof of it, is that Cloud never did that again.

[jammi567]

Compilation Network - Compilation of Final Fantasy VII Ultimania

Trivia 1

Sephiroth all over the place.

In "FFVII" wherever Cloud and company go there is Sephiroth, but as a matter of fact it's not Sephiroth's real body. The headless Jenova stored in the ShinRa Building, is the one who manifests in Sephiroth's form.

As for Sephiroth's true self, when he fell inside the Nibel Mako Reactor it dissolved in the Lifestream, but over the course of five years his body reconstructed itself in the Northern Crater where the Lifestream concentrates as he bided his time for his revival. Before long, he was able to call Cloud, the Copies, and Jenova's body together to unify in the Reunion, and use them to obtain the black materia to summon Meteor. After that, it was the complete body that Cloud and company would fight against.

[Dragon Mage]

Oh my my my. Some real clearing up needs to be done here.

Let's start from the beginning shall we, and lay down some facts.

Arrogant as always.

Well who pissed in your corn flakes?

You say I'm arrogant, yet look at your opening words. Did I not clearly and in great detail provide a plausible explanation for the question brought to bear? Seeing as I'm the only one to have done so, I've eliminated many speculative ideas....

Will you never be tired of presenting your opinion and speculation as a fact, on top of your high horse?

And not through my opinion either, thank you. Everything I posted was concluded after playing the game many times, examining the details, looking up reasons etc. on only reliable sources, and then I compiled my findings in one long 'essay' of sorts. More than you have done, I see.

Wrong. Sephiroth himself said he would use the planet as a vessel to travel the universe, like Jenova did a long time ago.
Jenova used planets as space-ships.

Very well. If you really want to say that a planet counts as a spaceship, then by all means, do so. Usually, the popular idea of a spaceship is the silver disc and so on and so on. You know. The kind of thing you see in movies. Thus, I did not go through the process of explaining how an entire planet was used as a spaceship. But, whatever floats your boat.

In reality, it was manipulating the knowledge of previous lives/memories immersed within the Lifestream.

No:

*Jenova's mimic ability*
Jenova has a mimic ability which allows it to read the memories and feelings of others, then adjust its appearance, speech and behaviour accordingly to immitate what it has seen. Jenova once used this ability to get close to the Ancients and infect them with its virus, which killed many of them.

This ability is not limited solely to Jenova itself, for those who have its
cells within them possess it as well, though in an incomplete form.
Immediately prior to the start of the game, when Cloud's mind was shattered, he ran into Tifa and seemed to immediately return to "normal" (-->P.13); this was because the mimic abilities of the Jenova cells inside Cloud read her mind, seeing her memories of him, which were then combined with his own ideal vision of himself, fashioning a new personality for him.

See? Nothing to do with "the knowledge of previous lives/memories immersed within the Lifestream".

I do believe we are referring to two separate and strikingly different situations here. I'm referring to the knowledge gained through the Lifestream as a kind of reconaissance, if you will. You are referring to manipulating the hosts memories (or what they think is a memory) so that the parasite (in this case, Jenova cells) remains intact and safe through the safety of the host. Different situations call for different actions.

It could have done this easily by spreading it's own cells throughout the Lifestream and then making it's own cells attack the host. If you've seen FF7: AC, then this would be similar to Geostigma.

Wrong again:

(Accompanying screenshot caption 1)
According to Ifalna, the Ancients infected with the virus lost their sanity and turned into monsters.

Geostigma don't turn people into monsters.

True, it didn't. But then again, there was no direct force/creative mind behind Geostigma, was there? Had there been a being with the ability to control the Jenova cells, and with the inherent mutant powers we know that Jenova cells are capable of, Jenova could effectively turn people into monsters. Who knows what the true powers of Jenova can do. It could probably do more.

And:

Vicious, extremely aggressive and cunning. Having no thoughts of creating anything following bringing destruction, it only follows its instincts to incite ruin, utilizing its mimic ability (-->P.211) to infect other living organisms with its virus.

Not the Lifestream, but "living organisms".

Jenova's virus was NOT Geostigma. It was something completely different

Ah, this is a common misconception. I never said it was Geostigma. I said it was like Geostigma. All this comparison was for, was to find something relatable for the reader to get a better understanding of it. If they are asking a question that requires an answer via my essay, then I wouldn't assume they have a very deep understanding of the fine nuances of the game. That's why they're asking the question! So, I made a rough reference to something they are no doubt familiar with so they could get the gist of the idea. You see? Don't get so riled up over such a simple thing for goodness' sake.

To do this, they first injected members of SOLDIER, an elite fighting group attached to Shinra with Jenova cells, not only to see what effect it would have, but to get the Promised Land sensing ability as well. However, the Jenova cells had little or no effect on the SOLDIERs. This is because the mind and body reacted to the foreign substance and attacked it, destroying the cells before the cells could do anything. In an attempt to get around the body’s defense, the experiment subjects were submerged in Mako. This brought down the body’s defense—for reasons I’ll explain later—and this brought into being the Sephiroth ‘clones’. However, these ‘clones’ did not posses the ability the Shinra were seeking, so an unborn infant was directly injected with Jenova cells, to work in the alien cells with human DNA--truly fusing the two species together. This is the creation of Sephiroth.

Bull. Sephiroth was the first one to be injected with J-cells, to find the Promised Land. After they found out the cells granted him super strength, speed, and skill, they decided to inject all SOLDIERs with them.

Go check your facts again, dear boy. Hojo himself said that he injected his unborn child with Jenova cells. He also states that he is Sephiroth's father.

This is why Sephiroth came out the way he did, and the other SOLDIER's didn't become 'sephiroth clones'. And besides, the entire game, Sephiroth speaks of 'finding the promised land'. He even kills President Shinra because the Shinra were poking their noses into finding the promised land as well. Since when did he ever get there? I don't know where you're getting this from.

Now, I'll get back to the power of Jenova. These cells have an adverse affect on human cells, changing normal human cells into something more like Jenova cells. This grants humans some limited powers of Jenova, thus the reason for flying, walking on ceilings, and being unnaturally strong.

Wrong. No humans(injected with J-cells) can do that. Only Sephiroth(the real one) could fly, and only after he became Safer Sephiroth(and in the end of AC).

I don't mean literal 'flying' as with wings, dear boy. And Cloud did manage to levitate and walk on ceilings in the North Crater, yes? I doubt Sephiroth was the one manipulating Cloud, as I do believe he was saving his energy for using the black materia. He had already pushed Cloud's mind to the breaking point, and to handing him the black materia. Cloud did the rest: Sephiroth had comparitively little to do when Hojo confirmed that Cloud had been used as an experiment.

Yes, Cloud never did that again. However, did Cloud ever get into the mental breakdown state he was in at the time ever again? The answer is no. Not even when Aerith died. These were powers deep in the subconcious, seen only when there was very little Cloud left. So much for that theory, The Crystal, but I guess it was worth a shot. Don't feel bad, failure happens all the time. You're just particularly prone to it.

However, Cloud, in some fashion it, is never really explained, manages to get hold of the identity of his deceased friend Zack, and thus thinks he is Zack but with his own past.

Wrong again. It's explained how Cloud got hold of Zack's identity:

Immediately prior to the start of the game, when Cloud's mind was shattered, he ran into Tifa and seemed to immediately return to "normal" (-->P.13); this was because the mimic abilities of the Jenova cells inside Cloud read her
mind, seeing her memories of him, which were then combined with his own ideal vision of himself, fashioning a new personality for him.

Obs: "a new personality for him" = Zack's personality.

It was the J-cells.

Really? And where in that quote does it say that it 'fused' with his own ideal vision of himself? If it's and ideal version of himself, then why does he abandon so much of his own personality to pick up so much of Zack's? Wouldn't it be better to be your OWN ideal self, not your own ideal someone else? That's stretching it, Crystal. Indeed, I can only conclude that it's your own interpretation of how 'Zoud' came about.

You say I'm selling my speculation as truth, yet I don't see you doing anything but what you accuse me of. There's a word for people like you: You're kind is generally called a hypocrite.

and I believe I'll leave it at that.

Yes, please.

Do a favor to us: get down of your high horse, and stop presenting your assumptions as facts.

I can say the same of you. Here's a tip: When you accuse someone of a particular thing, it's a good idea to NOT do that very thing as well. Makes you look bad. Stupid. You know. A bigoted hypocrite!

[Cloudane]

Now now children, settle down.

As for Sephiroth's true self, when he fell inside the Nibel Mako Reactor it dissolved in the Lifestream, but over the course of five years his body reconstructed itself in the Northern Crater where the Lifestream concentrates

/slapforehead

Of course. Never thought of the Jenova cells reunion thing. That makes perfect sense, so AC wasn't his first reunion and probably won't be his last...

[Bloodline666]

He even kills President Shinra because the Shinra were poking their noses into finding the promised land as well. Since when did he ever get there? I don't know where you're getting this from.

I can answer that question by going a bit deeper into the meaning of the Promised Land.

I could be mistaken, but according to the information provided by the UOG (as well as in-game dialogue from Aerith, herself), the Promised Land is not any one particular place set in stone that you can easily find on a map, but rather, it is something unique to each individual that brings a person supreme happiness. Thus, the term "Promised Land" is open to interpretation among the cast of FFVII; therefore, the "Promised Land" Aerith ultimately sought is not the same as the "Promised Land" Sephiroth and the Shinra were seeking (which is reiterated in "Maiden Who Travels The Planet"); basically, there's two known interpretations of the Promised Land in-game. Here's how this is possible.

Sephiroth sought the "Promised Land" to rule the Planet, as did Shinra, but they both had different means to do so. Sephiroth sought to use the Black Materia to call Meteor to injure the Planet to crisis levels, and steal the spiritual energy gathered to heal the wound for himself, while Shinra sought to build a larger version of Midgar with Mako Reactors draining even more spiritual energy than the ones currently active, and in the process, increasing their profits; obviously, such an area would have to be abundant in the Planet's spiritual energy. Sephiroth and the Shinra's interpretation of the "Promised Land" ended up being the Northern Cave.

The Cetra, on the other hand, sought the Promised Land to achieve supreme happiness by virtue of the peaceful sleep of eternal rest. Essentially, this means that the Promised Land could only be reached through death. There's only one place someone goes after death; the Lifestream. Which tells me one thing; the Cetra believe that the Lifestream, itself, is the Promised Land.

By falling into the Lifestream via the Nibelheim Mako Reactor AND ending up encased in a shell of materia in the Northern Cave, Sephiroth ended up finding BOTH known interpretations of the Promised Land.

[Dragon Mage]

Hmm, I know what you're saying, and I agree that the Promised Land is based soley on one's interpretation of what it actually is. However, The Crystal said that he was the first one to get there.

No, no he wasn't. The Crystal is saying that the Promised Land is a set place. It isn't. :P

[The Crystal]

Dragon Mage, it doesn't matter how many times you played the game. If your conclusions goes against official information, then you are wrong.

Very well. If you really want to say that a planet counts as a spaceship, then by all means, do so. Usually, the popular idea of a spaceship is the silver disc and so on and so on. You know. The kind of thing you see in movies. Thus, I did not go through the process of explaining how an entire planet was used as a spaceship. But, whatever floats your boat.

Did you forget what you said? Let me quote you:

However it skipped the expected space-ship arrival and came to the planet without anything else than itself.

But Jenova came in a planet.

I do believe we are referring to two separate and strikingly different situations here. I'm referring to the knowledge gained through the Lifestream as a kind of reconaissance, if you will. You are referring to manipulating the hosts memories (or what they think is a memory) so that the parasite (in this case, Jenova cells) remains intact and safe through the safety of the host. Different situations call for different actions.

You are refering to Jenova gaining/absorbing knowledge from the Lifestream, something that never happened. It's just another of your assumptions.

True, it didn't. But then again, there was no direct force/creative mind behind Geostigma, was there? Had there been a being with the ability to control the Jenova cells, and with the inherent mutant powers we know that Jenova cells are capable of, Jenova could effectively turn people into monsters. Who knows what the true powers of Jenova can do. It could probably do more.

Jenova's virus was NEVER called "Geostigma" by ANY official source released by S-E, so stop calling it that. And there WAS a "creative mind" behind her virus. The original Jenova(at the time of the Cetra) is described by the UOG as being "cunning" and "manipulative".
And about Geostigma itself, Sephiroth was controling the J-cells to create it.
Both Sephiroth and the original Jenova were "creative minds".

Not to mention, your original quote was:

It could have done this easily by spreading it's own cells throughout the Lifestream and then making it's own cells attack the host. If you've seen FF7: AC, then this would be similar to Geostigma

The part in bold never happened. It's an assumption you made, and presented as a fact.

Ah, this is a common misconception. I never said it was Geostigma. I said it was like Geostigma. All this comparison was for, was to find something relatable for the reader to get a better understanding of it. If they are asking a question that requires an answer via my essay, then I wouldn't assume they have a very deep understanding of the fine nuances of the game. That's why they're asking the question! So, I made a rough reference to something they are no doubt familiar with so they could get the gist of the idea. You see? Don't get so riled up over such a simple thing for goodness' sake.

Yeah, and I proved it ISN'T "like Geostigma".
Geostigma is "a condition brought on by the overworking of the body's immune system, trying to purge Jenova's cells that have entered the body." as explained by the Compilation Ultimania.
Jenova's virus was the J-cells transforming people into monsters.
Not "like Geostigma" at all.

And you said the original Jenova corrupted the Lifestream, something that never happened. This is why I answered with this:

And:

Vicious, extremely aggressive and cunning. Having no thoughts of creating anything following bringing destruction, it only follows its instincts to incite ruin, utilizing its mimic ability (-->P.211) to infect other living organisms with its virus.

Not the Lifestream, but "living organisms".

Read the part in bold. "other living organisms" NOT "the Lifestream".

Go check your facts again, dear boy. Hojo himself said that he injected his unborn child with Jenova cells. He also states that he is Sephiroth's father.

This is why Sephiroth came out the way he did, and the other SOLDIER's didn't become 'sephiroth clones'.

Learn to read. Did I say Sephiroth wasn't Hojo's son? No.
And the other SOLDIERs didn't became Sephiroth clones because of their strong will.

And besides, the entire game, Sephiroth speaks of 'finding the promised land'. He even kills President Shinra because the Shinra were poking their noses into finding the promised land as well. Since when did he ever get there? I don't know where you're getting this from.

Learn to read. I said he was injected with J-cells "to find the Promised Land". I never said he found it.

I don't mean literal 'flying' as with wings, dear boy. And Cloud did manage to levitate and walk on ceilings in the North Crater, yes? I doubt Sephiroth was the one manipulating Cloud, as I do believe he was saving his energy for using the black materia. He had already pushed Cloud's mind to the breaking point, and to handing him the black materia. Cloud did the rest: Sephiroth had comparitively little to do when Hojo confirmed that Cloud had been used as an experiment.

If you wasn't talking about "literal flying" then you should have choosen another word. "Levitating" for example.
And have Cloud ever flied or walked on ceilings again, after that moment? No? I wonder why. :rolleyes2

Yes, Cloud never did that again. However, did Cloud ever get into the mental breakdown state he was in at the time ever again? The answer is no. Not even when Aerith died. These were powers deep in the subconcious, seen only when there was very little Cloud left.

Speculation =/= fact

Really? And where in that quote does it say that it 'fused' with his own ideal vision of himself? If it's and ideal version of himself, then why does he abandon so much of his own personality to pick up so much of Zack's? Wouldn't it be better to be your OWN ideal self, not your own ideal someone else? That's stretching it, Crystal. Indeed, I can only conclude that it's your own interpretation of how 'Zoud' came about.

His "own ideal vision of himself" is the vision of him being a 1st Class. It was what he wanted to be.

And it's not my interpretation. What I presented in my previous post was a quote from the UOG.
Oh, but I forgot you know more about FFVII than the creators of it. Sorry. :rolleyes2

You can call me "dear boy" all you want. That just proves how arrogant you are.


But really, stop making yourself look like a fool. If you don't have any concrete evidence(aka, quotes from the games, information from the books or interviews with the creators) to support your argument, then shut up.

It's easy to see you are full of . We just need to read the official materials.



Hey, guys and girls. Don't let Dragon Mage fool you again. Go here:

Compilation Network - Compilation of Final Fantasy VII Ultimania

And here:

Final Fantasy VII Ultimania Omega FAQ - IGN FAQs



Now everyone can find out when you are lying, Dragon Mage. Isn't that great?!
I think it is.


Have a nice day.

[Leeza]

The Crystal: Stop being rude. You can argue a point and disagree with it, but do not tell another member to shut up in insult them.

[Dragon Mage]

Thank you, Leeza.

The Crystal, I don't know what you're problem is, but cool down. You're debating pointless minutia. I've explained any misunderstanding's that could've come from reading my essay, yet you persist. Obviously I have a clear understanding of the fine mechanics of the game, and I would never offer my own opinion as fact.

Thing is, UOG explains things, yes, but not always in a way people can understand and/or relate to. My essay is merely that information put in a simpler way. With simplifying comes some compromise, yes, but on a level that is so insignificant, it's pointless to debate over.

Desist, will you? I've answered the question, and now you're grabbing as straws to make a fight. I'm sorry, but no matter how hard you try, I will not engage in this petty brawl you are seeking to incite.

[Leeza]

Dragon Mage: Your post is absolutely not necessary. You gave a warn and that was sufficient. Do not prolong the issue.

[The Crystal]

FFVII's story is already complicated and bad translated. We don't need a guy throwing his "factual" speculation to complicate it even more.

No one can blame me, for using official information to correct him.

[Leeza]

The Crystal: Drop it.

[Mercen-X]

It could have done this easily by spreading it's own cells throughout the Lifestream and then making it's own cells attack the host. If you've seen FF7: AC, then this would be similar to Geostigma.

Wrong again:
According to Ifalna, the Ancients infected with the virus lost their sanity and turned into monsters.

Geostigma don't turn people into monsters.

True, it didn't. But then again, there was no direct force/creative mind behind Geostigma, was there? Had there been a being with the ability to control the Jenova cells, and with the inherent mutant powers we know that Jenova cells are capable of, Jenova could effectively turn people into monsters. Who knows what the true powers of Jenova can do. It could probably do more.

What the heck was Kadaj putting into the water that the kids drank? More J-cells? To tilt the scales of power against the body's natural defenses, I could imagine. More importantly, as Crystal said, it was all orchestrated by the will of J-Seph and Kadaj even admits to being a puppet no greater than the kids they used as shields.

By the way, Crystal, "it could have" doesn't sound to me like DM was presenting this theory as fact.

To do this, they first injected members of SOLDIER, an elite fighting group attached to Shinra with Jenova cells, not only to see what effect it would have, but to get the Promised Land sensing ability as well. However, the Jenova cells had little or no effect on the SOLDIERs. This is because the mind and body reacted to the foreign substance and attacked it, destroying the cells before the cells could do anything. In an attempt to get around the body’s defense, the experiment subjects were submerged in Mako. This brought down the body’s defense—for reasons I’ll explain later—and this brought into being the Sephiroth ‘clones’. However, these ‘clones’ did not posses the ability the Shinra were seeking, so an unborn infant was directly injected with Jenova cells, to work in the alien cells with human DNA--truly fusing the two species together. This is the creation of Sephiroth.

Was any of this supposed to have been mentioned somewhere in DoC?

He was being controled by Sephiroth at the moment. Considering the fact Sephiroth was holding the party in the air(while crushing their bodies) before the fight with Bizarro, I don't see why he couldn't make Cloud walk on the "ceiling".

Cloud did manage to levitate and walk on ceilings in the North Crater, yes? I doubt Sephiroth was the one manipulating Cloud, as I do believe he was saving his energy for using the black materia. He had already pushed Cloud's mind to the breaking point, and to handing him the black materia. Cloud did the rest: Sephiroth had comparitively little to do when Hojo confirmed that Cloud had been used as an experiment.

Also, Crystal, that Bizarro was the 'Awakened' Sephiroth. Of course he could manipulate the group. But as DM said, I doubt the dude in the Crystal could have levitated Cloud and allowed him to walk on the ceiling. Besides which, Cloud displays his own ability to levitate objects and otherwise defy gravity many other times in the game and especially in AC.

[The Crystal]

What the heck was Kadaj putting into the water that the kids drank? More J-cells? To tilt the scales of power against the body's natural defenses, I could imagine. More importantly, as Crystal said, it was all orchestrated by the will of J-Seph and Kadaj even admits to being a puppet no greater than the kids they used as shields.

Kadaj, Yazoo and Loz are spirit bodies created by Sephiroth. They don't have J-cells in them, and therefore cannot put it into the water.
That black think was something like Sephiroth/Jenova's essence. It activated the Reunion instinct in the kids(who already had J-cells), and made them look for Jenova's head(what Kadaj and his "brothers" wanted to find).
Kadaj wanted to use the Reunion instincts of the kids, to lead him to Jenova.

By the way, Crystal, "it could have" doesn't sound to me like DM was presenting this theory as fact.

Leeza told me to drop it, and that's what I will do.

Was any of this supposed to have been mentioned somewhere in DoC?

No.

Also, Crystal, that Bizarro was the 'Awakened' Sephiroth. Of course he could manipulate the group. But as DM said, I doubt the dude in the Crystal could have levitated Cloud and allowed him to walk on the ceiling.

Remember the "dude in the crystal" could control Jenova's body, the clones, and hold back Holy, all at the same time. And he still could use the Black Materia without dying after it, and create a HUGE barrier around the Crater.
Sephiroth's mind is powerful. So powerful he could come back from dead many times, because of it.
I don't see why it's so hard to believe ha made Cloud, one of his clones, levitate.

Besides which, Cloud displays his own ability to levitate objects and otherwise defy gravity many other times in the game and especially in AC.

All the characters of AC "defy gravity". And tha's just "jumping very high". Cloud never levitated or walked on ceilings before or after the scene at the Northern Crater. Never.

And Cloud levitating his swords... That was part of a Limit Break. But he wasn't using any Limit in the scene at the Crater, was he?