Is Sephiroth actually Jenova?

[Cloudane]

yet at Gast's house at the Icicle town, Jenova is referred to as 'he'. An error, perhaps.

[Roogle]

Do you think that it's possible that Jenova is simply an organic lifeform similar to bacteria that had no will of its own?

I envisioned it something like this. Jenova and Sephiroth become intertwined in a way that allows Jenova to act as an extension of his will and his body, yet Sephiroth is like the brain, and they can't really exist without the other, but they're both necessary for the events in the game to happen —

It makes me wonder what Jenova was like before. Does the Ultimania state anything about the Jenova from the past? Did it really have a will of its own or was it like a bacterium? If it was like a bacterium, that would explain why it did not succeed in nearly destroying the world the first time.

[Forsaken Lover]

Ifalna: "That's when the one who injured the Planet... or the 'crisis from the sky', as we call him, came. He first approached as a friend, deceived them and finally...... gave them the virus. The Cetra were attacked by the virus and went mad... transforming into monsters. Then, just as he had at the Knowlespole. He approached other Cetra clans...... infecting them with... the virus..."

Not only did Jenova perform a sentient act, you can not "approach as a friend" using instincts, she also specificlaly targetted and went after other Cetra/Ancients. Jenova also has the ability to telepathically read people's minds and shapeshift into forms that would be effective to manipulate them...a very sentient move.

[Mercen-X]

Actually, humans to this day can be attacked by non-sentient viral agents that cause us to hallucinate and experience what we want to as they tear us apart. Without clarification, there's no way to know exactly what Ifalna meant by what she said. She may come from a race of people who speak figuratively/in riddles.

[Roogle]

I agree that it appears like it was a sentient creature, but how was Jenova contained and rendered inanimate? Does the Ultimania explain that part? Does Ifalna say anything about that, either? I wish that we were given more time with Ifalna in flashbacks, as she appeared to know much more about the planet than anyone else that we encounter in the course of the game.

[feioncastor]

Something I never really grasped was if Sephiroth was actually being controlled by Jenova or just acting on his own.

Any thoughts?

I figure I'll chime in with how I understand it.
(SPOILER)
Sephiroth is a human. He's a really strong human, but he's still mortal and bound by the laws of physics and such.

The Sephiroth that you see throughout the game isn't actually the man Sephiroth. The real Sephiroth was cast into a Mako Reactor by Cloud. You do see him for a time when Cloud gives him the Huge Materia while at the North Crater.

The Sephiroth that kills President Shinra and all that is actually Jenova, posing as Sephiroth.

[Dragon Mage]

Oh my my my. Some real clearing up needs to be done here.

Let's start from the beginning shall we, and lay down some facts.

Jenova is an alien, a viral life form that can take any shape it wants. Jenova is no specific 'he' or 'she' but rather Jenova is most firmly an 'it'. The alien being, never before encountered, has powers that aren't human, of which I'll come back to later. A notable aspect of Jenova is that if any cells are separated from the main mass will eventually come back to the body. Whereas humans freely shed millions of skin cells by rubbing an eyelid, Jenova does no such thing. Quite a curiosity. It also has complete control over every individual cell, thus why all the cells eventually come back together when separated--Jenova is actually pulling itself back together again. Jenova is also a very resilient creature, one that, for some reason, can survive the absolute zero temperature of outer space, possibly by using the aforementioned powers.

Next, Jenova came here via space travel. However it skipped the expected space-ship arrival and came to the planet without anything else than itself. Interesting in the least. The northern crater in the game is actually the landing site of Jenova's arrival. Any reference to this reasoning is quite vague. It's unsure as to exactly why Jenova came here, but the intention was not peaceful in the least. When it came here, it took the shape of the indigenous species and played the part of a benevolent being for a time. Eventually it started to act, and showed the people specters of lost loved ones, displaying it's supposed power over the dead. In reality, it was manipulating the knowledge of previous lives/memories immersed within the Lifestream. Using the knowledge, it created illusions, weakening the moral and confusing the populace. Then it began to spread a virus amongst the humans, who at that time were called the Cetra. It could have done this easily by spreading it's own cells throughout the Lifestream and then making it's own cells attack the host. If you've seen FF7: AC, then this would be similar to Geostigma. This virus killed nearly all the Cetra, the guardians and people of the planet, in the most literal sense. With the planet defenseless, and weakened by the crater, Jenova could now take over the planet for whatever purposes it had in mind. Somehow, the remaining Cetra managed to kill Jenova. However, the Cetra race was all but extinct, and it never grew back to its former numbers. Or perhaps, the remaining Cetra was killed along with Jenova in the final battle. Whichever it was, the Cetra population never grew back to its former size and was (technically) extinct. At the same time the planet was creating a defense for itself, the Weapons, but the Cetra managed to kill Jenova before the Weapons were ever released.

Jenova was dumped back in the crater, or possibly some chasm, where it lay, dead, for 2,000 years. Then, some archeologists found it in a dig. Mistaken to be one of the members of the lost Cetra race, the powerful company, Shin Ra, sought to use it's DNA to recreate a living Cetra, to an extent, with the Cetra's powers of finding the Promised Land. The Promised Land was of great interest to Shinra for it was thought that Mako would be abundant there. To do this, they first injected members of SOLDIER, an elite fighting group attached to Shinra with Jenova cells, not only to see what effect it would have, but to get the Promised Land sensing ability as well. However, the Jenova cells had little or no effect on the SOLDIERs. This is because the mind and body reacted to the foreign substance and attacked it, destroying the cells before the cells could do anything. In an attempt to get around the body’s defense, the experiment subjects were submerged in Mako. This brought down the body’s defense—for reasons I’ll explain later—and this brought into being the Sephiroth ‘clones’. However, these ‘clones’ did not posses the ability the Shinra were seeking, so an unborn infant was directly injected with Jenova cells, to work in the alien cells with human DNA--truly fusing the two species together. This is the creation of Sephiroth.

The rest you undoubtedly know, yet I'll do a quick run-through for topics' sake. Sephiroth did not turn out as they expected, still ignorant of the fact that Jenova was not an Ancient/Cetra. When Sephiroth found out that Shin Ra was creating monsters using humans, he snapped, finding out that he was created in a similar way, by the fact that his mother's name and the monsters name in the room of the reactor were the same. The documents in the Shin Ra basement confirmed this. Then Sephiroth went truly mad, horrified and angered that he was the 'rightful heir' to the planet and that these 'weaklings' had done so much harm to his ‘mother’ and himself.

Now, since Jenova was dead, it had no way of ever controlling its body, obviously. Now a little history. You remember when, in Niblehiem, Cloud threw Sephiroth into the Mako below? Well, at that point, Sephiroth ceased to exist in physical form. Through sheer force of will, he didn’t merge into the Lifestream, as normally happens. He used the life-giving powers to re-animate Jenova’s body. He cannot bring Jenova to life, but can imbue it with the power to move. So in all the times you see Sephiroth in the game, it’s not really Sephiroth--it's actually Sephiroth controlling Jenova's body, and making it change shape to look like him. A madman fighting with the puppet of his 'mother's' dead body--which brings up the puppet question, but that's another story for another time.

As Sephiroth has control over all Jenova cells that also means that he has control of the cells that have been injected into countless SOLDIER's, clones, and human experiments. Now this is where Cloud comes in. As he was also experimented on, Jenova cells were also injected into him as well. Sephiroth was able to manipulate the cells to his advantage, mainly in the memory part of the brain.

Now, I'll get back to the power of Jenova. These cells have an adverse affect on human cells, changing normal human cells into something more like Jenova cells. This grants humans some limited powers of Jenova, thus the reason for flying, walking on ceilings, and being unnaturally strong. However, the Mako-immersion process that accompanies the injection of Jenova cells on the experiments has a dramatic effect. The Mako--Lifestream--is filled with the memories of the lives of people long dead, as it is the very spirit energy of hundreds of former lives, and is being recycled over and over. When immersed in Mako that spells bad news-- for thousands of memories of unknown lives is forced into a person's mind, and if that person, like Cloud, wasn't particularly fond of their life, it would be easy to get lost in the flood of memories and literally lose ones own identity. This is what happened to all the previous Sephiroth clones. When one loses their identity like this, the body is unable to defend itself; this allows the Jenova cells to ‘attack’ the human cells, since the body’s immunity system is down. The whole process, on the other hand, did not affect Zack, because he had a life that he liked and had confidence in himself. Thus, he was unaffected by the effects of Mako and his mind and body responded to the Jenova cells and attacked them.

However, Cloud, in some fashion it, is never really explained, manages to get hold of the identity of his deceased friend Zack, and thus thinks he is Zack but with his own past. The two do not mix together very well, and I often refer to this confused Cloud as Zoud (it was better than 'Clack') to keep them straight. Now Sephiroth, who can control all Jenova cells, used the cells in Cloud to mess with his head, quite simply. He used these cells to control Cloud’s mind, which is why he handed over the black materia among other things. It wasn’t really Cloud, it was Sephiroth. I could go on but that's going far off topic and I believe I'll leave it at that.

[Cloudane]

I prefer 'Clack'

Seems like a good explanation. The one difference with other explanations I've heard is that it's usually said that Sephiroth's real body wasn't destroyed/killed - just that it entered the lifestream (same way as Cloud did) when he got thrown from the reactor, and then got carried by the lifestream to the North cave where he ended up in that blob of mako/materia for a while controlling Jenova's body and making it appear as himself. Essentially, by this explanation, there were 2 "Sephiroth" bodies in existence, one his real body and mind controlling the 'fake' one which is Jenova's body (puppet).

[The Last Oath]

Dragon Mage is correct.

[Mercen-X]

However, Cloud, in some fashion, it is never really explained, manages to get hold of the identity of his deceased friend Zack, and thus thinks he is Zack but with his own past. The two do not mix together very well, and I often refer to this confused Cloud as Zoud (it was better than 'Clack') to keep them straight..

Actually, I think that's fairly easy to explain. Both Cloud and Zack were placed in Mako pools at the same time. Since the liquid of the Lifestream does not need physical integration to communicate memories, Zack's life before the events that led to his death were telecommunicated to Cloud during their incarceration.

Seems like a good explanation. The one difference with other explanations I've heard is that it's usually said that Sephiroth's real body wasn't destroyed/killed - just that it entered the lifestream (same way as Cloud did) when he got thrown from the reactor, and then got carried by the lifestream to the North cave where he ended up in that blob of mako/materia for a while controlling Jenova's body and making it appear as himself. Essentially, by this explanation, there were 2 "Sephiroth" bodies in existence, one his real body and mind controlling the 'fake' one which is Jenova's body (puppet).

Yes. It is true that Seph's body was found encased in Materia and now I realize that it was never shown being freed. Basically, that was Seph's perfectly preserved but lifeless carcass.

[ljkkjlcm9]

The simple answer is no, Sephiroth is not Jenova.

THE JACKEL

[The Crystal]

Oh my my my. Some real clearing up needs to be done here.

Let's start from the beginning shall we, and lay down some facts.

Arrogant as always.

Will you never be tired of presenting your opinion and speculation as a fact, on top of your high horse?

Next, Jenova came here via space travel. However it skipped the expected space-ship arrival and came to the planet without anything else than itself.

Wrong. Sephiroth himself said he would use the planet as a vessel to travel the universe, like Jenova did a long time ago.
Jenova used planets as space-ships.

In reality, it was manipulating the knowledge of previous lives/memories immersed within the Lifestream.

No:

*Jenova's mimic ability*
Jenova has a mimic ability which allows it to read the memories and feelings of others, then adjust its appearance, speech and behaviour accordingly to immitate what it has seen. Jenova once used this ability to get close to the Ancients and infect them with its virus, which killed many of them.

This ability is not limited solely to Jenova itself, for those who have its
cells within them possess it as well, though in an incomplete form.
Immediately prior to the start of the game, when Cloud's mind was shattered, he ran into Tifa and seemed to immediately return to "normal" (-->P.13); this was because the mimic abilities of the Jenova cells inside Cloud read her mind, seeing her memories of him, which were then combined with his own ideal vision of himself, fashioning a new personality for him.

See? Nothing to do with "the knowledge of previous lives/memories immersed within the Lifestream".

It could have done this easily by spreading it's own cells throughout the Lifestream and then making it's own cells attack the host. If you've seen FF7: AC, then this would be known as Geostigma.

Wrong again:

(Accompanying screenshot caption 1)
According to Ifalna, the Ancients infected with the virus lost their sanity and turned into monsters.

Geostigma don't turn people into monsters.

And:

Vicious, extremely aggressive and cunning. Having no thoughts of creating anything following bringing destruction, it only follows its instincts to incite ruin, utilizing its mimic ability (-->P.211) to infect other living organisms with its virus.

Not the Lifestream, but "living organisms".

Jenova's virus was NOT Geostigma. It was something completely different

To do this, they first injected members of SOLDIER, an elite fighting group attached to Shinra with Jenova cells, not only to see what effect it would have, but to get the Promised Land sensing ability as well. However, the Jenova cells had little or no effect on the SOLDIERs. This is because the mind and body reacted to the foreign substance and attacked it, destroying the cells before the cells could do anything. In an attempt to get around the body’s defense, the experiment subjects were submerged in Mako. This brought down the body’s defense—for reasons I’ll explain later—and this brought into being the Sephiroth ‘clones’. However, these ‘clones’ did not posses the ability the Shinra were seeking, so an unborn infant was directly injected with Jenova cells, to work in the alien cells with human DNA--truly fusing the two species together. This is the creation of Sephiroth.

Bull. Sephiroth was the first one to be injected with J-cells, to find the Promised Land. After they found out the cells granted him super strength, speed, and skill, they decided to inject all SOLDIERs with them.

Now, I'll get back to the power of Jenova. These cells have an adverse affect on human cells, changing normal human cells into something more like Jenova cells. This grants humans some limited powers of Jenova, thus the reason for flying, walking on ceilings, and being unnaturally strong.

Wrong. No humans(injected with J-cells) can do that. Only Sephiroth(the real one) could fly, and only after he became Safer Sephiroth(and in the end of AC).

However, Cloud, in some fashion it, is never really explained, manages to get hold of the identity of his deceased friend Zack, and thus thinks he is Zack but with his own past.

Wrong again. It's explained how Cloud got hold of Zack's identity:

Immediately prior to the start of the game, when Cloud's mind was shattered, he ran into Tifa and seemed to immediately return to "normal" (-->P.13); this was because the mimic abilities of the Jenova cells inside Cloud read her
mind, seeing her memories of him, which were then combined with his own ideal vision of himself, fashioning a new personality for him.

Obs: "a new personality for him" = Zack's personality.

It was the J-cells.

and I believe I'll leave it at that.

Yes, please.

Do a favor to us: get down of your high horse, and stop presenting your assumptions as facts.

[Kappy]

Indeed. If I'm right in saying, Jenova inside the Shinra Headquarters is the main body of Jenova, and Sephiroth summons the remaining parts of Jenova to reunite with the head that he posesses at the Northern Crater, so he can "carry out" his Spirit Energy and vessel plans with her once Meteor hits.

The Sephiroth you follow upto the Northern Crater is the main body from the Shinra HQ as stated. Presumably the fact it didn't act until Cloud and the party got there isn't just coincidence- when Cloud looked through the window (and this is all guess work but it seems logical) it may have read Cloud's memory and mimiced Sephiroth from it... possibly.

The different parts of Jenova you fight are as far as I know, all the main body aside from Synthesis which is the result of the Reunion (but not full strength, as some of the Sephiroth clones didn't make it and Cloud obviously never surrendered himself to Jenova.)

[jammi567]

I need to make one little correction to that statement - all of the guys in black died.

And the different parts that you fight were not all the main body - certainly the fight in the Cargo ship and the one at the Temple of Ancients were different parts of Jenova, but not the actual body.

[Mercen-X]

Now, I'll get back to the power of Jenova. These cells have an adverse affect on human cells, changing normal human cells into something more like Jenova cells. This grants humans some limited powers of Jenova, thus the reason for flying, walking on ceilings, and being unnaturally strong.

Wrong. No humans(injected with J-cells) can do that. Only Sephiroth(the real one) could fly, and only after he became Safer Sephiroth(and in the end of AC).

No.1 The flying Sephiroth was not the real Sephiroth. It was Jenova. The "real" Sephiroth is a corpse encased in Materia crystal.
No.2 I believe DM is referring to the part where Sephiroth is found in the materia because that is when CLOUD is hovering and walking around on the freaking ceiling. Hooah!

However, Cloud, in some fashion, it is never really explained, manages to get hold of the identity of his deceased friend Zack, and thus thinks he is Zack but with his own past. The two do not mix together very well, and I often refer to this confused Cloud as Zoud (it was better than 'Clack') to keep them straight..

Actually, I think that's fairly easy to explain. Both Cloud and Zack were placed in Mako pools at the same time. Since the liquid of the Lifestream does not need physical integration to communicate memories, Zack's life before the events that led to his death were telecommunicated to Cloud during their incarceration.

I need to correct myself. Cloud doesn't have Zack's memories. He doesn't remember Aerith. He doesn't remember Gongaga. He has Zack's personality as the Crystal has stated but not his memories.