Rinoa is Ultemicia

[Sir Bahamut]

Like Skyblade pointed out, Ultimecia's attempts to kill herself and Squall etc. are usually explained away by assuming that Ultimecia, despite being Rinoa, was so far removed from Rinoa mentally that they had essentially different identities and Ultimecia would have no recollection of her past. Of course this makes one wonder why bother with the theory to begin with, but there you are.

The most damning evidence against the theory is the complete lack of good evidence in favour it, both in the game and in the Ultimania.

[Big D]

The most damning evidence against the theory is the complete lack of good evidence in favour it, both in the game and in the Ultimania.

Indeed... since the Ultimanias are kind of like the "tell-all exposes" of the FF world, a fundamental issue like "R=U" would have been included if it were true.

Besides, I've always maintained that the R=U theory would completely defeat the purpose of FFVIII's love story. Squall and Rinoa's journey together, their falling in love and the immense hurdles they faced - what does that matter if she's going to forget him, 'turn evil', and eventually get killed by her old friends? Kind makes a mockery of the game's happy ending.

[ljkkjlcm9]

Squall is Headmaster Cid... It's a fact

THE JACKEL

[Nominus Experse]

Yes, and the hot dogs in the cafeteria are Zell

[Skyblade]

Yes, and the hot dogs in the cafeteria are Zell

Hee. Zell is an Ouroborus.

[Bloodline666]

Like Skyblade pointed out, Ultimecia's attempts to kill herself and Squall etc. are usually explained away by assuming that Ultimecia, despite being Rinoa, was so far removed from Rinoa mentally that they had essentially different identities and Ultimecia would have no recollection of her past. Of course this makes one wonder why bother with the theory to begin with, but there you are.

The most damning evidence against the theory is the complete lack of good evidence in favour it, both in the game and in the Ultimania.

That's not the most damning evidence against the R = U theory; the most damning evidence against the theory is, in fact, explictly stated in Ultimania, itself. According to that very guide, Rinoa will die before Ultimecia is born (if that doesn't directly dispel the R = U myth, then I don't know what does). As mentioned earlier, Ultimania states that a Sorceress' lifespan is equivalent to that of any other human, and Ultimecia lives too far into the future for any of the other in-game characters (Rinoa included) to exist in that time period (even the in-game script, itself, confirms that Ultimecia lives "generations into the future"). How many Sorceresses have inherited Rinoa's powers between Rinoa and Ultimecia is not explicitly stated, but since Ultimania explicitly stated that Rinoa will die before Ultimecia is born, it is also impossible for Ultimecia to have directly been the successor to Rinoa. So common sense tells me that there has been at least one Sorceress between the death of Rinoa and the birth of Ultimecia. It is very possible that the Sorceress who inherited Rinoa's powers may have passed her powers to Ultimecia, but that possibility is still open to speculation. Nonetheless, that is the closest possible link between Rinoa and Ultimecia. It is also possible for Rinoa to pass on her Sorceress powers to someone else without dying (as shown by the fact that Rinoa, herself, inherited her powers from Edea, who was still alive after the fact, and is still alive at the end of the game), but that is subject to a completely different debate.

One could argue that Rinoa had been sealed in the same manner that Adel was (as was the case for Rinoa, herself, for a very brief period during the game) for decades, or even centuries, but I don't see how that is possible, given the fact that only Esthar has that technology, and the fact that there are politics into play that prevent that from happening, as Esthar's President at the time of the game is not only widely speculated to be the father of her Knight, but could also end up being her father-in-law at any point post-game.

[Sir Bahamut]

I'm perfectly aware of the contents of the Ultimania, which you don't seem to be yourself. The Ultimania doesn't explicitly state that Rinoa will die before Ultimecia is born. It says that a sorceress lifespan is that of a regular human beings. All this proves 100% is that Rinoa couldn't have lived to Ultimecia's era through natural means alone, but the game itself provides a way to get around this, namely the Sorceress Memorial seal. Rinoa could have, in theory, been sealed down, driven mad, and woken up in the future as essentially Ultimecia.

The only problem with this theory is that it is not hinted at by anything in the game or in the Ultimania. There's just given no reason whatsoever to assume that this is going to happen, which is why I said the most damning evidence is the lack of evidence, because that's what the Ultimania basically did. It wasn't really about it disproving the theory on a technical level full stop, it was about disproving the only thing which could have allowed Rinoa to become Ultimecia without any extra assumptions.

[Bloodline666]

I'm perfectly aware of the contents of the Ultimania, which you don't seem to be yourself. The Ultimania doesn't explicitly state that Rinoa will die before Ultimecia is born. It says that a sorceress lifespan is that of a regular human beings. All this proves 100% is that Rinoa couldn't have lived to Ultimecia's era through natural means alone, but the game itself provides a way to get around this, namely the Sorceress Memorial seal. Rinoa could have, in theory, been sealed down, driven mad, and woken up in the future as essentially Ultimecia.

The only problem with this theory is that it is not hinted at by anything in the game or in the Ultimania. There's just given no reason whatsoever to assume that this is going to happen, which is why I said the most damning evidence is the lack of evidence, because that's what the Ultimania basically did. It wasn't really about it disproving the theory on a technical level full stop, it was about disproving the only thing which could have allowed Rinoa to become Ultimecia without any extra assumptions.

I stand corrected. I probably should have said "based on the information provided by Ultimania and the game" and "under normal circumstances", which is more accurate than what I let out.

The only way I can see Rinoa being sealed, driven mad, and woken up in the future as Ultimecia is if Esthar's sealing technology fell into the wrong hands, or if, for instance, Laguna is overthrown by someone who wanted Rinoa off the face of the planet simply because she's a Sorceress, and Rinoa got sealed, not to be released until sometime after Squall's death (whether Squall would be killed in another attempt at rescuing Rinoa, die of natural causes, or be driven into suicide in that situation would be open to speculation), because for as long as Laguna has breath in his body, I don't see how he would allow anyone, within his own country or not, to do such a thing to Rinoa when her Knight just happens to be his son (then again, his clumsy nature may cause him to do just that). I didn't see the dialogue, myself, but have heard that at some point in-game, Edea mentions to Rinoa that the very key to a Sorceress' mental state is her Knight. Well, needless to say, the key to driving Rinoa mad would be eliminating Squall.

[Ouch!]

You don't even need the Ultimania guide to prove that Rinoa is not Ultimecia.

Ok, if it were true, Rinoa likely wouldn't know if she was Ultimecia, but Ultimecia would definately know she is Rinoa. Ultimecia tries to kill Rinoa at the end of disc 1. If Ultimecia is Rinoa, killing herself in the past would negate her existence in the future and her whole plan for time compression and consuming all of the pieces of the Great Hyne would be shot. If Ultimecia were Rinoa, she wouldn't try to kill herself. End of story.

I imagine that the compression of past, present, and future would screw around with causality so much that negating one's own existence in such a manner would not be possible and thus not a concern.

Yeah, we don't actually know for sure how temporal mechanics work in FFVIII's world - just as we don't know how they work in our world. It's entirely possible that Ultimecia's free to change the past as much as she likes, without risking her own existence.

Bringing temporal mechanics into play really just confuses the issue. Then again, basing a plot almost entirely around time compression without even remotely attempting to explain the manner in which time functions tends to create gaping wide freaking huge plot holes, so the confusion is there regardless.

[Serapy]

Remember that this game is not meant to be simple and straight, the designers want the audience to create interpretations. This game is more like art.
In other words, the game is not very clear, so it becomes open interpretation for everybody.
This principle is one of the reasons why FF8 was such a good game.

If you e-mail SquareEnix, asking them about the the truth of whether R is U, they won't answer you, simply because they care about that principle. If they have answered you, it would ruin the game in some sense.

There's an evidence that Ultimecia is Rinoa.
There's an evidence that Ultimecia is not Rinoa.

See what I mean? You can believe what you want, it's meant to be like that.
I personally believe that Rinoa is Ultimecia in a multi-dimension world.

[Skyblade]

Excuse me for a sec. Where does anything in game say that sealing a sorceress, as with what happened to Adel and it was going to happen to Rinoa before Squall rescued her, preserves their life indefinitely? Adel's war was only 17 years before the game, well within the average human lifespan. I don't remember anything either in game or in Ultimania stating that the seals have life-preserving side-effects.

[Sir Bahamut]

Remember that this game is not meant to be simple and straight, the designers want the audience to create interpretations. This game is more like art.
In other words, the game is not very clear, so it becomes open interpretation for everybody.

The thing is, for an interpretation to be valid in any meaningful sense, it needs to be sufficiently backed up by the game itself. Multiple interpretations are fine as long as sound evidence is given in each case. R=U doesn't given sound evidence.

Excuse me for a sec. Where does anything in game say that sealing a sorceress, as with what happened to Adel and it was going to happen to Rinoa before Squall rescued her, preserves their life indefinitely? Adel's war was only 17 years before the game, well within the average human lifespan. I don't remember anything either in game or in Ultimania stating that the seals have life-preserving side-effects.

That's a very good point actually. I thought there seemed to be a pretty straightforward argument which indicates it, but decided to check to see if the tutorial had anything to say, which it did:

Adel's Tomb
A high-tech device intended for weakening and confining a sorceress' power.
Shot into the moon's orbit after going through a special sealing process. Used
to confine Sorceress Adel. It is the main cause of radio interference on the
planet.

No mention of it sustaining life. I figured that they wanted to avoid her death because it could mean her powers being passed on to someone else, which would sorta imply it sustains life (or else what'd the point be?), but perhaps not. If all it did was suppress her powers though, would they really just leave her to die of old age? What's the point of keeping her alive for that long?

Still, your point still demonstrates that this other possible R=U scenario rests upon more assumptions.

[Skyblade]

You're assuming that they had the ability to kill her. Remember, Laguna and friends only got her into the tomb by trickery, they didn't force her. They trick her into the tomb, and shoot her into space. Had they tried to fight her head on, they would've been slaughtered. Leaving her to die of old age in space seems a much safer option. Remember, to seal her powers they had to keep her in orbit and have a seal so strong that it kept up worldwide signal interference from orbit. That is a lot of power being spent, just to keep hers in check. Killing her was hardly an option, until Squall and company showed up.

[Big D]

You're assuming that they had the ability to kill her. Remember, Laguna and friends only got her into the tomb by trickery, they didn't force her. They trick her into the tomb, and shoot her into space. Had they tried to fight her head on, they would've been slaughtered. Leaving her to die of old age in space seems a much safer option. Remember, to seal her powers they had to keep her in orbit and have a seal so strong that it kept up worldwide signal interference from orbit. That is a lot of power being spent, just to keep hers in check. Killing her was hardly an option, until Squall and company showed up.

Indeed - and we know for certain that she wasn't kept completely inert by the containment device. She was at least partly conscious, as shown by her 'messages' in the worldwide interference - "I am still alive" and so forth. That adds to the idea that time - and thus, age - were passing normally for her in containment.

[Tallulah]

Squall is Headmaster Cid... It's a fact

THE JACKAL

THIS MAN SPEAKETH THE TRUTH!