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Thread: Rinoa is Ultemicia

  1. #31

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    Well, I agree they wouldn't have been able to take her head on, but if they had her sealed up it seems to me that they could have easily just blown up the whole thing or launched her into the sun or something rather than keep her in orbit? =P Could her powers really have prevented that from killing her? Doubtful, considering Edea could have been killed by a single bullet. But then why did they keep her there in the first place? Was Laguna perhaps vehemently against the death penalty?

    I guess it boils down to the fact that her containment in space was primarily a plot necessity rather than something very well thought out. But if we just assume that they had a good reason for keeping her in orbit, then I agree, there is no real indication that the sealing prevents aging entirely. Well, the argument is still there that they perhaps put her in orbit and sealed her because they didn't want her to die because that might mean her powers being passed on, but we actually have no idea if that was why they did it in the first place, so doesn't amount to that strong an argument.

    Hm, will have to put that in the next update of the Time/Ultimecia Plot FAQ over at GameFAQs. Will put your name in the credits Skyblade, if you don't mind (Big D's already there).

  2. #32
    NO SOUP FOR YOU! Bloodline666's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Bahamut View Post
    Well, I agree they wouldn't have been able to take her head on, but if they had her sealed up it seems to me that they could have easily just blown up the whole thing or launched her into the sun or something rather than keep her in orbit? =P Could her powers really have prevented that from killing her? Doubtful, considering Edea could have been killed by a single bullet. But then why did they keep her there in the first place? Was Laguna perhaps vehemently against the death penalty?
    Whether or not Laguna was against the death penalty seems to be of little relevance as to why he kept Adel in orbit. Laguna may be clumsy, but he's nowhere near as moronic as he comes across to be. He knows full well that a Sorceress must be free of all her powers before she can die, and can only do so by passing them onto a potential sorceress candidate (hence, one of the reasons Adel captured Ellone in the first place, possibly because she was paranoid that someone had a plot to assassinate her, a paranoia that is normally held by ANY dictator, even real life dictators such as Hitler). With a Sorceress as treacherous and tyrannical as Adel, Laguna was extremely fearful at the time of the consequences of Adel dying and passing her powers onto someone, especially if that someone happened to be Ellone (considering her own innate powers). He basically felt that it was safer to keep Adel in orbit, in suspended animation, and under constant surveillance, instead of killing her off and risking her powers being transfered to someone else, and thereby running the risk of the new Sorceress being just as vile (I have reason to believe that Adel's tyrannical rule over Esthar is the primary reason for Sorceresses being feared by the masses). Even if she was launched to the sun or blown up, her powers would eventually find a way to a new Sorceress. With Adel's powers in Rinoa's hands, those fears should remain unfounded for as long as Squall lives and stays by her side (remember, he alone holds the key to Rinoa's sanity).
    Last edited by Bloodline666; 04-06-2008 at 02:04 PM.

  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Bahamut View Post
    Hm, will have to put that in the next update of the Time/Ultimecia Plot FAQ over at GameFAQs. Will put your name in the credits Skyblade, if you don't mind (Big D's already there).
    I'd be honored.

    The problem with the "don't kill her so her powers aren't passed to another person" thing is that it doesn't really make much sense. The game has a couple points indicating that a sorceress can indeed die without passing on her powers, yet the game itself says that they cannot. If a sorceress could live forever by not passing on her powers, Adel would never look for a successor: I cannot see her giving up immortality. I figure it is far more likely that at the point a sorceress dies, whether killed or if she dies of old age, her powers pass on to another person. If a sorceress has a particular person nearby, she likely has some control over where her powers go, but, if not, they will head for the nearest or the most suitable host. So even if Adel died in outer space, her powers would eventually wind up making their way to another person, though, since we have little indication of how old Adel was, it may be 50-70 years before that becomes an issue.

    Do we ever actually learn the source of Edea's powers? She said that she was a sorceress since she was a child, but I don't remember any mention being made of a sorceress passing her powers to Edea at that time. She did receive Ultimecia's powers, but she was fully grown then.

    And I think that the sorceresses are feared because they are insanely powerful. They possess extraordinary abilities, abilities so strong that without a knight keeping them sane, they'll be overwhelmed by those abilities and go insane. A creature of nearly unlimited magical potential and questionable sanity is enough to inspire paranoia in anyone.
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  4. #34
    NO SOUP FOR YOU! Bloodline666's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Skyblade View Post
    Do we ever actually learn the source of Edea's powers? She said that she was a sorceress since she was a child, but I don't remember any mention being made of a sorceress passing her powers to Edea at that time. She did receive Ultimecia's powers, but she was fully grown then.
    Part of the reason we don't know who Edea initially inherited her powers from is because it's quite possible that absolutely none of the characters in the entire game's storyline know who she initially inherited them from; in fact, Edea, herself, may not know who she inherited her powers from. It is even stated in the tutorial that the exact number of Sorceresses currently in existence at any time is unknown, due to the fact that many of them keep their powers completely hidden.

  5. #35
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    Thanks, I just wanted to make sure I was remembering that correctly.
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  6. #36
    A Big Deal? Recognized Member Big D's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Skyblade View Post
    The problem with the "don't kill her so her powers aren't passed to another person" thing is that it doesn't really make much sense. The game has a couple points indicating that a sorceress can indeed die without passing on her powers, yet the game itself says that they cannot. If a sorceress could live forever by not passing on her powers, Adel would never look for a successor: I cannot see her giving up immortality.
    Depends on the nature of 'existence' for a sorceress who hasn't surrendered her powers... it's possible the energy simply keeps them clinging to life, barely in the land of the living and more like a tortured zombie. Rather than granting immortality, it forces them to remain in the world of the living, despite every protest from their mind and body. Just a theory, of course, but it'd explain things reasonably well. Furthermore, when Ultimecia's finally defeated by the crew, she staggers over to Edea and barely struggles to declare that she "can't... disappear yet". Clearly on the brink of death, but unwilling or unable to simply go to an inn and rest up to regain her strength. If my highly speculative theory's correct, Ultimecia's powers were forcing her to remain alive until she could give them away.
    According to the legend, humans were created as the tools of Hyne, after all. Consider a really ty analogy: A sorceress is a tool of Hyne, say a gardening tool like a pair of clippers. Those clippers have become broken and worn beyond any hope of being repaired, but what's left of them can be held together indefinitely by duct tape - in this case, Hyne's Sorceress Power duct tape.

  7. #37

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    Quote Originally Posted by Skyblade
    I figure it is far more likely that at the point a sorceress dies, whether killed or if she dies of old age, her powers pass on to another person. If a sorceress has a particular person nearby, she likely has some control over where her powers go, but, if not, they will head for the nearest or the most suitable host. So even if Adel died in outer space, her powers would eventually wind up making their way to another person, though, since we have little indication of how old Adel was, it may be 50-70 years before that becomes an issue.
    Um, that just supports what I was saying. If they wanted to avoid her Apowers being passed on, they'd want to keep her alive at all costs if this were true, which would sorta imply that the seal was keeping her alive indefinitely (or else it would be a pretty bad seal). Actually though, I guess it's possible that the seal could contain her powers within itself even if Adel died inside it, which is perhaps more plausible since the only thing we know for sure is that it seals her powers while she's alive. It's the fact that the seals nature is clearly ambiguous in regards to prevention of death which is important in terms of R=U though.

    Big D's theory there is what me and the other authors of the FAQ determined to be the most plausible reconciliation of the apparent contradiction found within even the Ultimania itself (which says both that sorceresses have human lifespan and that they can't die while they have their powers). Basically the sorceress powers would prevent them from dying, so they'd be stuck in the dying moment in great agony. Their bodies would naturally then produce a intense urge to give away the powers, which is what we see happen to Ultimecia. She doesn't want to die, but as she approaches Edea the burden becomes to big to bear.

    I think there's some vague allusion to Jenova going on here actually, since the tutorial states that sorceresses prefer to avoid spreading their powers too thin. So the powers live on forever and gradually become more gathered until ideally one person would have all the powers (and be like a new Hyne I guess). The powers can't simply disappear, but won't just fly off into space, so the subject is kept alive until a successor is found. I imagine it's just instincts kicking in. Exceptionally strong sorceresses might be able to fight it off for a while and keep her powers for some time even after being killed, but eventually the natural drive to give up the powers would take over entirely, maintaining the succession of witches.

    So even if Adel could technically stay alive even as dead, it'd hardly be a pleasant type of existence and couldn't last that long anyway, except possibly if you were completely isolated from everyone else. Makes you wonder if that's what they were doing to Adel; keeping her powers trapped in the seal while letting Adel spend countless years kept alive in a tormented state of death without release. Pretty grotesque

  8. #38
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    Since you brought up a Jenova analogy, I'll use another FFVII metaphor: The Lifestream. When a person dies, their life energy is recycled through the planet, until it gives birth to a new entity. Similarly, when a sorceress dies, their powers are recycled to a new vessel (albeit one already alive). It's not a case of the powers keeping the sorceress alive, it's a case of as soon as the sorceress dies, her powers, like her life energy, are recycled into the system automatically. A sorceress can choose to give up her powers before death, but can not die without passing her powers on, for death itself will pass the powers on. When Edea meets Ultimecia, she is saying that she is looking for someone to pass her powers on to so that she can "die in peace". Perhaps death without passing on ones powers first is possible, but not very pleasant.

    In any event, since the preservation of life by not passing on powers is a direct result of being a Sorceress, I would say that the Ultimania stating that a Sorceress's lifespan is the same as a normal person's rules that possibility out.

    Also, there is no need to keep Adel alive indefinitely. Laguna knew full well that Adel was not the only sorceress: He knew Edea personally after all, and never sought out to seal her away. He only tried to seal away Rinoa because Ultimecia had the ability to possess her. Adel was the one that they were fighting, and it seems to me that the seal was just to stop the threat from Adel herself, not to stop the power of the sorceress in general.
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  9. #39

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    Quote Originally Posted by Skyblade
    Similarly, when a sorceress dies, their powers are recycled to a new vessel (albeit one already alive). It's not a case of the powers keeping the sorceress alive, it's a case of as soon as the sorceress dies, her powers, like her life energy, are recycled into the system automatically. A sorceress can choose to give up her powers before death, but can not die without passing her powers on, for death itself will pass the powers on. When Edea meets Ultimecia, she is saying that she is looking for someone to pass her powers on to so that she can "die in peace". Perhaps death without passing on ones powers first is possible, but not very pleasant.
    Well, that's a fine theory, but has no backing in the game. In the game we never see the sorceress powers being recycled in such a way, we only see dying sorceresses passing on their powers before dying.

    Quote Originally Posted by Skyblade
    In any event, since the preservation of life by not passing on powers is a direct result of being a Sorceress, I would say that the Ultimania stating that a Sorceress's lifespan is the same as a normal person's rules that possibility out.
    I disagree. Same lifespan only implies aging and susceptibility to death by old age, but doesn't contradict the fact that to fully die (even by old age) they have to give up their powers. And as I said above, that's all we ever see. Sorceresses who have been critically wounded giving away their powers and then dying. We never see a sorceress dying and then some time later someone becoming a sorceress completely randomly.

    Also, there is no need to keep Adel alive indefinitely. Laguna knew full well that Adel was not the only sorceress: He knew Edea personally after all, and never sought out to seal her away. He only tried to seal away Rinoa because Ultimecia had the ability to possess her. Adel was the one that they were fighting, and it seems to me that the seal was just to stop the threat from Adel herself, not to stop the power of the sorceress in general.
    Obviously they weren't trying to stop sorceresses in general, but they probably thought it would be better if no one inherited Adel's powers, because of how extremely powerful they were. Thus it would make perfect sense to keep her alive indefinitely assuming that they couldn't kill her without the powers being passed on.

  10. #40

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    Quote Originally Posted by Serapy View Post
    Remember that this game is not meant to be simple and straight, the designers want the audience to create interpretations. This game is more like art.
    In other words, the game is not very clear, so it becomes open interpretation for everybody.
    This principle is one of the reasons why FF8 was such a good game.

    If you e-mail SquareEnix, asking them about the the truth of whether R is U, they won't answer you, simply because they care about that principle. If they have answered you, it would ruin the game in some sense.

    There's an evidence that Ultimecia is Rinoa.
    There's an evidence that Ultimecia is not Rinoa.

    See what I mean? You can believe what you want, it's meant to be like that.
    I personally believe that Rinoa is Ultimecia in a multi-dimension world.
    i heart you for saying this...i believe the same thing
    The lance strikes when it sees fit
    Cutting the bonds of the ones we love
    In time all shall dissapear
    Leaving mass disillusion and despair
    Some will find comfort in faith
    Struck by unbeheld horrors
    Somewhat the vision of a wraith
    We all lose the ones we love,the ones we didnt, and the ones we never got the chance to love
    But if it wasnt for this lance, striking down its prey
    The most beautiful emotion of all would be forever hidden
    Sorrow...

  11. #41
    A Big Deal? Recognized Member Big D's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Bahamut View Post
    Obviously they weren't trying to stop sorceresses in general, but they probably thought it would be better if no one inherited Adel's powers, because of how extremely powerful they were. Thus it would make perfect sense to keep her alive indefinitely assuming that they couldn't kill her without the powers being passed on.
    Adel had spent quite some time, and started more than a few armed conflicts, in her attempt to find a successor - clearly, she wanted a successor who'd be as powerful and iron-fisted as herself. I guess the notion of 'power corrupts' applies: her powers corrupted her mind and body into something monstrous, so the same would likely happen to whoever inherited those powers, if they were led in the right direction. It'd be a wise and logical move to thwart Adel's greatest wish by preventing her passing on her powers.

  12. #42

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    omg some people still debate on this topic?
    2 or 3 years ago a squaresoft staff said before that they were very happy that many fans still dig this game but I recall they reply on this topic and said that theres no way that rinoa could be ultimecia...

    The world of silence maybe a cold and bitter one; like the deep wastes of the arctic regions, it is fit for neither man nor beast. Holding one’s tongue may be prudent, but it is an act of rejection; silence build walls – and walls are symbols of failure.

  13. #43

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    Quote Originally Posted by Big D View Post
    Indeed... Square say that sorceresses have normal human lifespans; this is canonical info from the Ultimania guidebook. Ultimecia lives "many generations" in the future, to quote the game, so unless she's using Secret Longevity Magic or somesuch, there's no realistic way for the two to be the same person.
    The game definitely plays with the risk of Rinoa 'turning evil' like some sorceresses before her; she's afraid of becoming "the world's enemy" like Ultimecia. She also knows that Ultimecia will one day inherit her powers, several generations along down the line. In that way, Rinoa and Ultimecia are 'the same' as each other, though they're not actually the same person.
    This point has often been argued against the R=U theory without any proper address to sound logic; if time compression is involved, then the 'normalcy' of anything, including its temporal characteristics, are subject to absolute change. This is the beginning point of the destruction of this argument against the R=U theory, and hence it is no longer a valid point in argumentation.

    Additionally, the circumstances that involve Rinoa's escape of mortality fit beautifully into the motivations and personality of Ultimecia, something that is never fully explained by the DIRECT plot. So not only does the R=U theory offer a wonderful extra dimension to the game, it also ties up ALL loose ends of the plot and takes its rightful place as the greatest fictional creation within the last 30-50 years.


    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Bahamut
    Well, I agree they wouldn't have been able to take her head on, but if they had her sealed up it seems to me that they could have easily just blown up the whole thing or launched her into the sun or something rather than keep her in orbit? =P Could her powers really have prevented that from killing her? Doubtful, considering Edea could have been killed by a single bullet. But then why did they keep her there in the first place? Was Laguna perhaps vehemently against the death penalty?

    I guess it boils down to the fact that her containment in space was primarily a plot necessity rather than something very well thought out. But if we just assume that they had a good reason for keeping her in orbit, then I agree, there is no real indication that the sealing prevents aging entirely. Well, the argument is still there that they perhaps put her in orbit and sealed her because they didn't want her to die because that might mean her powers being passed on, but we actually have no idea if that was why they did it in the first place, so doesn't amount to that strong an argument.

    Hm, will have to put that in the next update of the Time/Ultimecia Plot FAQ over at GameFAQs. Will put your name in the credits Skyblade, if you don't mind (Big D's already there).
    One reason that is often cited for keeping her in Orbit is to prevent the transfer of her sorcery to another individual, thus continuing the cycle of 'witches.' This actually ties up the reasoning behind launching her in orbit and prevents this action from decaying into a mere 'plot necessity.' Now, there are some problems with this theory, but it is overall quite clean.


    Quote Originally Posted by LanceOfTime
    Quote Originally Posted by Serapy
    Remember that this game is not meant to be simple and straight, the designers want the audience to create interpretations. This game is more like art.
    In other words, the game is not very clear, so it becomes open interpretation for everybody.
    This principle is one of the reasons why FF8 was such a good game.

    If you e-mail SquareEnix, asking them about the the truth of whether R is U, they won't answer you, simply because they care about that principle. If they have answered you, it would ruin the game in some sense.

    There's an evidence that Ultimecia is Rinoa.
    There's an evidence that Ultimecia is not Rinoa.

    See what I mean? You can believe what you want, it's meant to be like that.
    I personally believe that Rinoa is Ultimecia in a multi-dimension world.
    i heart you for saying this...i believe the same thing
    Excellent analysis; I know that Ultimecia is Rinoa not in any other dimension or world, but in the exact same world. This is because since they are the same person, they originated in the exact same dimension and world, with one simply being the past of the other.

    That FAQ is flawed; the reasoning behind saying that it is 'highly unlikely' that Ultimecia is Rinoa is incorrect, as I argue in the post "R=U Correction." It should be changed to 'it is still unconfirmed whether or not Rinoa is Ultimecia, although there is STRONG evidence, combined with a sensible plot analysis of reasonable assumptions, that she is.'
    Last edited by Vost; 06-10-2008 at 08:55 AM.

  14. #44
    Nerfed in Continuum Shift Recognized Member Zeromus_X's Avatar
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    Vost, please don't post multiple times in a row. Use the Edit button to add information to a previously made post.

  15. #45

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    Quote Originally Posted by Zeromus_X View Post
    Vost, please don't post multiple times in a row. Use the Edit button to add information to a previously made post.
    Got it, sorry.

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