Are There Any "Pure" Villains in the Game?

[Forsaken Lover]

The three main antagonists of the game would probably be Queen Brahne, Garland and of course Kuja. Brahne was a woman tormented by the loss of her husband and who was then preyed upon by a devious mastermind, causing her to commit the terrible crimes she did. Garland was just a man created for the sole purpose of restoring his planet and people and he did that the only way he knew how. Kuja was a person who wanted to save his own life and show the proof of his existence.

So...are there any villains in the game who aren't sympathetic or deep? Who just want to destroy and kill and be all evil for no reason?

[Vivisteiner]

No, there aren't any pure villains, is the short answer.

[Rantz]

Zorn and Thorn.

[ReloadPsi]

Zorn and Thorn.

That, and perhaps Necron. To an extremely limited extent. If that.

[Vivisteiner]

Oooh, haha, maybe Zorn and Thorn. Yeah, they come closest.


Necron wasnt evil. At least, I dont see him as being evil. I just thought he made an initial, poor judgement call.

[Rantz]

Yeah, Necron was more of a metaphor than en evil entity imo.

[Trance_Kuja]

Zorn and Thorn are being 'ordered' to do things, if you say Zorn and Thorn then I shall include the Black Waltz, especially No.3.

[Vivisteiner]

^But Zorn and Thorn actively chose to seek out Kuja. They did this, despite his immoral action, because they knew that if they were servants of the most powerful person they too would have a small share in that power. They were purely selfish, and they chose to do what they did.

Black Waltz 3, on the other hand, was created and ordered to do what he did, and it is unclear as to whether he had any choice. He was brainwashed immediately. Its like a baby being brainwashed into believing something or doing something at a young age - it can be held responsible for its actions in a true way.


Zorn and Thorn were loyal to the Queen and King before Brahne turned bad and Kuja came. They would not have been brainwashed at a young age, and it seems obvious their decisions to support Kuja were there own. There is however the possibility that they chose to do so out of fear, rather than wanting power for themselves.

[Trance_Kuja]

I was under the impression Zorn and Thorn were working for Kuja the whole time, especially as Kuja knew they were one and the same being. I doubt Z and T would just say to him, oh yea we are actually a big ugly Jester beast split into two.

I thought it was Kuja who split them into two to infiltrate Brahne and be his inside men.

[Vivisteiner]

^Oh wait. We shouldnt even be calling them Zorn and Thorn should we?

It's just one beast.

Anyway, I was just reading this bit:

Zorn: "No one is here!"

Thorn: "Is no one here, really?"

Zorn: "Yes!"

Thorn: "Sure, you are about that?"

Zorn: "That is enough!"

Thorn: "Now, we do what?"

Zorn: "We are going to ask Princess Garnet if we can return to the
castle."

Thorn: "Return to the castle? Can we really!?"

Zorn: "I will not know until--!!! We must hide!"

[Marcus and Blank appear; Zorn and Thorn hide behind a statue.]

Blank: "Looks like no one's here."

Marcus: "Yeah."

Blank: "I guess this is about the only thing we can do for
Zidane... ...keep up the night watch and preserve
Alexandria's peace."

Marcus: "Yeah, I think so, too."

Blank: "What a peaceful night. It's almost scary... Okay, let's
finish our rounds."

Marcus: "Alright."

[They run off.]

Zorn: "That was close."

Thorn: "Now what?"

Zorn: "We cannot stay as long as those meddlers are here! We must
leave Alexandria!"

[The two clowns run out of town.]


It seems like they are not directly under Kuja's control, unless if Kuja would have preferred them to have been keeping an eye on Garnet. Whether they were under Kuja's control initially, do you have any other evidence? That was a good point about Kuja knowing about the beast.


But how would he ensure that Zorn and Thorn became Brahne's servants? Interesting. We really dont know much about their history.

[Trance_Kuja]

Also Kuja must have known they could extract Eidolons unless they overheard him talking about needing Eidolons and they said we can get them for you. But that's just as unknown as Kuja pre knowing anyway.

I take that they want to get back into the castle because Kuja wants them to spy on Garnet, as why would they want to go back now when they are known as the bad guys.

[sillybuttons™]

Most of the best fictional media past and present has antagonists that the author tries to convey some degree of sympathy on. Even the great Shakespeare plays to this theme with great effect. As does Star wars, all Dan Brown books, hell, even Pokemon. If you look at the other FF games you can find reasons behind the dark motives of the main "evil" characters. In fact I'll put a fun size mars bar up as the ante that you cant find any villain in anything without a sympathetic motive.:mog:

[Big D]

Good thread

The most villainous FFIX characters... guess that'd be the servants of Terra. So Garland and Kuja, primarily. They were created by the Terrans to do a job, so it wasn't their idea to be 'evil', but the Terrans' purpose is pretty grim: to eradicate all life on other planets, so that they can take that planet for their own and abuse it until it dies, before continuing the process on yet another world. We don't know how many civilisations were completely erased by Terra's depredations; all we know is that it was a lot. It's a purely selfish and wasteful strategy. Kuja and Garland knowingly served that purpose. You can argue that they aren't wholly responsible since that is what they were designed for, yet Zidane was part of the same plan and chose a better path.

Now, on a more light-hearted note... Tantalus are actually pretty evil in my opinion. Including Zidane. They're a thieving pack of criminals. They prey on the innocent, satisfying their own greed by abusing people whose only fault is that they've got some small amount of wealth. Not only are they thieves, they're violent offenders too. All armed, all carrying knives and swords whenever they're on a heist. Not only are they violent criminals, they're arrogantly self-righteous about it too, especially Zidane. Remember the flashback to his first encounter with Amarant? Amarant's earning an honest living as a guard for a wealthy family. Zidane has robbed that family at knifepoint, and Amarant's trying to stop him. Zidane blows him off as a 'bully' or 'thug' or somesuch, and boasts that he'll "knock [him] out in 30 seconds flat!"
He's going to beat a man unconscious for trying to prevent a crime... "you don't need a reason to help people" indeed. Never mind that you can't easily 'knock someone out' using a dagger. What Zidane really means is, "I'll stab you to death, or wound you so badly I can run away with something that doesn't belong to me".
Sure, there's the possible excuse that "Tantalus only steals from rich people, who deserve it!" which is dumb. Rich people aren't rich once they've been robbed. Tantalus are pretty wealthy thanks to their life of crime, but they'd murder anyone who tried to rob them, I think. The violence inherent in Tantalus is most evident when Baku punishes Zidane for 'breaking the rules' and trying to find the Princess following the airship crash. Baku attacks him with a sword. That's just smurfed up.
Speaking of the Princess... only Baku knew that his gang were abducting Garnet to protect her from Brahne. He never told his crew about this. So, what did the others think? Probably that they were abducting her for ransom. They were willing to take a 16 year old girl out of her home, by force, and incarcerate her to extort money out of her mother. If that's not evil, then I don't know what is. Especially when you consider that ransom demands are often accompanied by threats (or acts) or physical and sexual torture, if the money isn't paid in time.

I'm not actually that serious about all this, of course, though I am serious when I say that it's annoying to see Zidane treated like a saintly, awesome heroic figure when in reality he's a self-serving crook with an attitude problem.

:edit:

I'll put a fun size mars bar up as the ante that you cant find any villain in anything without a sympathetic motive.:mog:

These stakes are too high to ignore...
I'd nominate Ultimecia for this. She's probably the least sympathetic of the lot. What's her motivation? To absorb (all?) time and space, becoming the absolute power in the universe. The only thing remotely 'sympathetic' about her is that, as a sorceress, she's a feared figure, "the world's enemy". But she probably wouldn't be the world's enemy if she didn't want to, you know, destroy the world.

[Shotgunnova]

Who just want to destroy and kill and be all evil for no reason?

Yeah, Black Waltz 3. He invented his own "KILL KILL KILL" mantra for that sole purpose!

[The Last Oath]

Ozma