Artemisia and the QM theory

[Jessweeee♪]

I guess it can work .-.

[Marky Tee]

If you remember FE's theory about the skeletons near Esthar:
Well, in that 'Flood' painting, maybe it represents one of the Kislev...

"27 Kislev - (2105 BCE) - Flood rains cease
It is said that the forty days and nights of rainfall which covered the face of earth with water in Noah's time ended on Kislev 27 of the Hebrew year 1656 (2105 BCE). The flood itself lasted a full year (According to Genesis 6-8)."

Would that explain why you see these big skeletons near Esthar?
In the past, Esthar was underwater. So this must mean flood. This disaster has brought these big monsters (skeletons) to the area, why else skeletons were there? How did it all start in the first place? Lunar Cry?
Now in the present, no more flood! no more water on Esthar! The ground is so cold, desert and almost clean. The skeletons are quite visible.

what has any of that got to do with anything at all?

[Goldenboko]

If you remember FE's theory about the skeletons near Esthar:
Well, in that 'Flood' painting, maybe it represents one of the Kislev...

"27 Kislev - (2105 BCE) - Flood rains cease
It is said that the forty days and nights of rainfall which covered the face of earth with water in Noah's time ended on Kislev 27 of the Hebrew year 1656 (2105 BCE). The flood itself lasted a full year (According to Genesis 6-8)."

Would that explain why you see these big skeletons near Esthar?
In the past, Esthar was underwater. So this must mean flood. This disaster has brought these big monsters (skeletons) to the area, why else skeletons were there? How did it all start in the first place? Lunar Cry?
Now in the present, no more flood! no more water on Esthar! The ground is so cold, desert and almost clean. The skeletons are quite visible.

what has any of that got to do with anything at all?

I actually agree with Marky for once xD

[Zeromus_X]

no, the localization in ff7 was terrible. There's broken english all over that thing. whereas, with ff8 you find correct english and english slang interspersed throughout the game, an indication that people who knew what they were talking about translated the game.

Yeah. FFVIII's localization is leagues ahead of FFVII's.

Anyway, I think this is another example of something that is being thought into too much. Is there any reason why this specific game has so many theories?

[Goldenboko]

no, the localization in ff7 was terrible. There's broken english all over that thing. whereas, with ff8 you find correct english and english slang interspersed throughout the game, an indication that people who knew what they were talking about translated the game.

Yeah. FFVIII's localization is leagues ahead of FFVII's.

Anyway, I think this is another example of something that is being thought into too much. Is there any reason why this specific game has so many theories?

In my opinion since so many things lack proper explanation or depth, fans try and make it.

[Wolf Kanno]

I think there is way too much thought put into this. As has been stated by Big D; FF uses a wealth of mythology and religious terminology in its games but I find for the most part that many of the games use them in the most shallow of ways. Sephiroth for instance come from Kabbalah and in one form of interpretation it represents the path to God. Sephiroth's story is his quest for godhood. But thats where the similarities end; yet I still find people trying to (crudely) explain how Sephiroth represents the entire meaning of his namesake and the fact of the matter its not there. There are many more and even I'm guilty of starting a few.

The problem with VIII is that it is poorly written (not a bad story just poorly written and explained) and has made it possible for whacked out theories to be made. I feel that VIII like all the FFs has only meaning on a surface level. What you see is what you get an no amount of little nagging nuances in the background represent anything more their face value. Specifically cause they are not properly tied to the story.

Now granted, Ultemacia being based on this Greek figure is not unheard of but I still feel that trying to link it to R=U, which has no real in-game story basis, is putting too much thought into it.

[Serapy]

If you remember FE's theory about the skeletons near Esthar:
Well, in that 'Flood' painting, maybe it represents one of the Kislev...

"27 Kislev - (2105 BCE) - Flood rains cease
It is said that the forty days and nights of rainfall which covered the face of earth with water in Noah's time ended on Kislev 27 of the Hebrew year 1656 (2105 BCE). The flood itself lasted a full year (According to Genesis 6-8)."

Would that explain why you see these big skeletons near Esthar?
In the past, Esthar was underwater. So this must mean flood. This disaster has brought these big monsters (skeletons) to the area, why else skeletons were there? How did it all start in the first place? Lunar Cry?
Now in the present, no more flood! no more water on Esthar! The ground is so cold, desert and almost clean. The skeletons are quite visible.

what has any of that got to do with anything at all?

It's a separate theory based on FF8.

There's a large difference between something not being obvious because its subtle, and something not being obvious, because its made up

Consider this, for example, Ultimecia is one of the main roles in Final Fantasy VIII and how is it that her motives are not "obvious" when she is clearly not subtle? That's almost the whole point.

In my opinion since so many things lack proper explanation or depth, fans try and make it.

Almost everybody who have played FF8 obviously have left to wonder what was going on at some point. Therefore, it's reasonable to think of reasons why and how did they happen, there's nothing wrong with that.

The problem with VIII is that it is poorly written (not a bad story just poorly written and explained) and has made it possible for whacked out theories to be made. I feel that VIII like all the FFs has only meaning on a surface level. What you see is what you get an no amount of little nagging nuances in the background represent anything more their face value. Specifically cause they are not properly tied to the story.

Wolf Kanno, the FF8 plot is not clear whereas other FF games are clearer... so hench... possibilities are endless.

This theory isn't exactly directed to R=U, but it's like saying that there's no hard evidence that Rinoa is not Ultimecia. Two sides (R!=U and R=U) both have flaws.

[Iceglow]

Ok, heres something from me on this. Seraphy on a personal note I personally racked over 500 hours playing this game on my last playthrough and that musc easily have been playthrough 5 or so. Your theories are often of little merit and wildly unsubstantial full of much information but very little satisfactorial facts. If you were to be a lawyer you'd have a hard time winning cases because of the holes in your arguments. Please, please without taking offense calm down on the ideas Square all but said R=U is not true. Theres also many ideas in the game which do conflict heavily with the entire idea.

Now for this material in this thread, Without a doubt you're on to something with the reference to Mausolus' coin yes the lion is a good representation of Griever and the reverse image of the coin would indeed form the shape of the Balamb Garden "halo" ring. However like Big D said theres too many references to ancient cultures in all FF games heres some that are obvious:

Gilgamesh - god
Shiva - godess
Odin - god of gods, asgard, vikings
Ifrit (also spelt Ifreet) - fire demon or god
Minotaur - mythological greek creature
Ramuh - god
Atomos - myth creature
Bahamut - mythological king of dragons
Yojimbo - near mythological but possibly very real japanese renegade samurai or Ronin.
Excalibur - Arthurian
Knights of The Round - Arthurian
Siren - Mythological, greek

This list above is just some of the many. many references in FF games. Not all of them are there for anything other than the guys who were responsible for them think they're cool. I mean look at Biggs and Wedge been in almost every FF game now in some capacity purely in homage to Star Wars.

[Wolf Kanno]

The problem with VIII is that it is poorly written (not a bad story just poorly written and explained) and has made it possible for whacked out theories to be made. I feel that VIII like all the FFs has only meaning on a surface level. What you see is what you get an no amount of little nagging nuances in the background represent anything more their face value. Specifically cause they are not properly tied to the story.

Wolf Kanno, the FF8 plot is not clear whereas other FF games are clearer... so hench... possibilities are endless.

This theory isn't exactly directed to R=U, but it's like saying that there's no hard evidence that Rinoa is not Ultimecia. Two sides (R!=U and R=U) both have flaws.

VIII is not clear cause it was written poorly. It lacks a defined world structure and bounces from one unrelated plot element to the next leaving players to piece together its scattered plot. I still feel its pretty good but definetly poor in its presentation and execution.

I feel the lack of meaningful story ties is enough to justify R does not = U actually. If it was relevant (and I think we can all agree that R=U is a big deal storywise) then I feel the game would have been a little more blunt about it instead of hiding it behind minor background information that can easily be taken out of context. Granted, I feel Nojima is a pretty terrible writer so I could actually see him doing this but thats all I will give in defense of the R=U camp.

[Goldenboko]

Wolf Kanno, the FF8 plot is not clear whereas other FF games are clearer... so hench... possibilities are endless.

This theory isn't exactly directed to R=U, but it's like saying that there's no hard evidence that Rinoa is not Ultimecia. Two sides (R!=U and R=U) both have flaws.

Poorly explained plots doesn't mean "possiblities are endless." It means the plot was written poorly. R=/U doesn't has plot-holes, because the game has plot-holes. R=U has little supporting evidence, is usually based on other theories, and takes on many of the plot-holes already in the game, sometimes making it worse with ill-supported theories.

[champagne supernova]

I'm going to address these theories seperately.

Why Artemisia has very little/no relevance to Final Fantasy 8

If Square-Enix were going to base someone on a mythological Greek character, and considering the high quality of translations throughout VIII, one would think that they would give them the correct name when translating it to English.

Also, of interest about Artemisia is that her husband, Maussolus, was her brother. Squall & Rinoa are not brother and sister. And one cannot say that Artemisia was in fact mad. I went looking for the ash drinking reference you made, and could only find it in Wikipedia, at this link: Artemisia II of Caria - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
where it states:

She is said to have mixed his ashes in her daily drink, and to have gradually pined away during the two years that she survived him.

Now, "She is said to have" from an article on Wikipedia is definitely not a substantiated truth, especially when what is said to have happened does not have any citation. Who is this person who said this? Seeing that I could not find any other article that referred to this ash drinking, I would think this is usual Wikipedia nonsense. Also, considering the way she tactically outclassed and defeated the Rhodians, I would think that her mental facilities were operating quite well, thank you very much.

The Mausoleum of Maussollos was not started by Artemisia, but by Maussolus. This is substantiated out of Wikipedia by articles such as this: Maussolus
There are differing versions on how far along the Mausoleum was when Maussolus' died. One article said that it had just begun, some said that it was almost completed, and some say that Artemisia just commissioned the artists to do the decoration. However, this is irrelevant. The key is that Maussolus, not Artemisia, started the idea.

The lion on the coin was quite interesting. But take a look at this article: Caria
On the bottom left hand corner are some pictures of Carian coins, circa 200. And, one is a lion. This is after Maussolus' time. Also, according to this article: Silver Lion Coinage of Mylasa in Caria (Ancient Coins of Miletos)
the Carians stole the lion coin idea from their neighbour, and it first appeared in the time of Maussolus' father.

The Mausoleum has a greater resemblance to Edea's house, with the pillars surrounding it. The paintings in Ultimecia's castle are on canvas, and canvas painting only occured much after (like 1400 AD) the building of the Mausoleum. There are also carpets, wooden stairs, etc. which gives Ultimecia's castle a resemblance to a Renaissance era castle, not an ancient Greek castle.

Mausoleum would be translated as [building] dedicated to Mausolus. So, Ultimecia's castle should, if your theory is true, should be called the Squalloleum, or something like that.

This Artemisia connection was far-fetched to begin with, even if all the facts were true. But, after doing a little bit of checking of the facts, NOT ONE RELEVANT FACT IS ACTUALLY TRUE!

Oh, and I can answer my first question about why Squaresoft translated it to Ultimecia. It was so people did not get the wrong idea.

Why the QM Theory is also a bit irrelevant

The QM theory is an interesting article. I suggest you read it. But why it is irrelevant to the R=U debate is quite simple.

Firstly, just because someone is able to do something, does not mean that they are going to do it. My car can go x km/h. This does not mean I am going to drive it at x km/h. Same applies to Rinoa.

Secondly, there is no evidence from the game that Rinoa is able to travel forwards in time. Excluding time compression, there is no evidence of a being moving their entire being through time to another point. Time compression is a freak occurence, and obviously has never been completed, as the game would not be able to occur if all time was compressed into one state. Ellone and Ultimecia, through her machine, are moving mental consciousnesses to people in the past. And, in Ellone's case, not changing anything. But that is very different to moving one's entire body through time & space.

Thirdly, the QM theory only states that if one moves backwards through time, you will not change the present. But it is possible that it rules out forward time travel (I am no scientist, so I may be wrong). The way I picture it is that we are kind of like a train. From the present, if I look back, there is only a single railway track. If I move back into the past, I will not be able to change the present. However, the future is still uncertain, and as such there is an infinite number of railway tracks, illustrating all my possibilities. Therefore, one cannot move forwards through it, because one cannot know what the future actually is.

Conclusion
In my opinion, Serapy's use of Artimesia to try and prove R=U is completely flawed, as all the evidence brought forward is flawed. The QM theory is irrelevant to the game because of my first two points, and may actually remove the possibility of forward time travel, if my third point is correct. Perhaps someone wise in the mechanics of time travel can have a look at this article and see what they think the implications of this are in terms of forward time travel.

[The Crystal]

Then why didn't the localization have her as Artemisia?

For the same reason they gave her a weird accent(replacing C with K). The reason is...

Is...

...

???

[Jessweeee♪]

I am disappointed that the person who subbed the Dissidia trailer didn't change the Cs to Ks ;_;

[Marky Tee]

I actually agree with Marky for once xD

i am hurt lol
infact though your wrong cause i usualy do tend to side with your arguments in these mental threads

[Iceglow]

Then why didn't the localization have her as Artemisia?

For the same reason they gave her a weird accent(replacing C with K). The reason is...

Is...

...

???

Please go speak to anyone with an eastern european accent, in speciffic Polish or one of the Balkland countries (Romania, Czech, Slovakia, Kossovo, Lithuania, Albania to name some) Many people from there do this all the time, due to their accent. It's also something that can occur from having your tongue pierced or jaw broken, words can sound different afterwards even when it's healed. Given that Ultimecia is from the far future way after Squall's time, it is possible that the Gabaldian accent or another accent would have changed slightly and evolved just look at how quickly the american accent was born from the english accent. It's also entirely possible that as a young rebellious sorceress who wanted to be bitchy towards her oppressive parents she got her tongue pierced. We just don't know but I'll bank on it being she's actually from a place where the accent changed slightly. Maybe Esthar being pretty messed up by the lunar cry the Estharians scattered and re-settled parts of Centra?