Random battles have very little to do with the way the battles are actually fought.
Random battles have very little to do with the way the battles are actually fought.
well maybe random battles isnt what i meant then.
i mean the whole idea of going into a different screen, rather than the map & battles being on the same screen.
I won't comment on FFXII's battle system directly, I just want FFXIII to not be a sack of fail.
Its a difference in taste I suppose. I understand where you are coming from but I feel the games that do this are not so bad (mostly Suikoden) cause the battle system is based around strategy rather than grinding to godhood. Granted I do actually grind to godhood but rarely throughout the game. Besides, I have a feeling Suikoden's system is designed this way to help out with the fact you have close to 60 to 80 characters to play as.Originally Posted by I'm my own MILF
That's actually one of the few things I dislike about Suikoden.The problem is, for me, that it adds even more to the inevitable linearity of JRPGs. Not only is where you go constrained, but even what you do there. The whole thing just gets to be too much hand-holding, in essence. There's rarely any danger.
True beauty exists in things that last only for a moment.
Current Mood: And it's been a long December and there's reason to believe. Maybe this year will be better than the last. I can't remember all the times I tried to tell myself. To hold on to these moments as they pass...
I haven't read the whole thread but heres what I think
level caps:
I think to hell with levels sometimes. ff2 and 10 both served this point well. yeah yeah yeah you can get everyone up to level 99 (which I do) but to go beyond level 99 stat wise, well thats revolutionary. I'd like to see a game where you can level up as much as possible but still have a number like getting up to level 100+. It would be cool to have all the stat bonuses but the exp would make this really hard to do if you wait to level up at like 610 to 611. There would have to be like a zillion exp to gain. But still you could do all the quests, story, and anything else and always improve.
enemy levels that scale:
This isn't that bad as long as you don't run into a later fight that you shouldn't be fighting yet. most games (the good ones) won't have little areas you can go to that shouldn't be gone to early on. They just make one path for you to stick to and no getting lost.
Fetch quests:
When I was young playing games and fetch quests were fun. I have nothing against them. The only thing I hate is when you have to really dig in time to get what you need. Like FF12's tournesol. In ff10 you had to collect segnils or something to activate the ultimate weapons. Which wasn't that hard. Sp I have to say as long as games balance out fetch quests with each other, I don't mind some hard here and some easy there.
muti stage boss fights:
yeah, this can be good or bad. one bad example is legeonds of dragoon's final boss which is like 4 or 5. then an easy one like... what the hell theres no real easy one. I like to kill a boss and be done with it. there ain't no turning back for the player, except in KH2.
scripted battles you are forced to lose:
you know I too have wasted many items on these kinds of boss fights and haven't saved in a long time. With that kind of bummer anyone would hate them. I always thought in like FF9 with all the ones you are forced to lose. SHOW IT IN A FMV!!!!!!! don't take our time going into battle wasting stuff. Its no fun.
Bosses that are immune to all status effects:
Yep this really sucks. Maybe they should just start making them last for a lesser time. Maybe that would help. Or have a fricken ribbion you can steal from them to blind them. WHY WHY WHY make them so hard your green mage can't do @$$
the destruction of a home town:
yeah yeah I've seen from completly destroyed to being rebuild to actually being destroyed a 1000 years ago and people are just now learning that. Then there are good games that keep every town nice and clean. SO like before if the games balance there selfs out. Its not a bad thing. But if its repeated I don't know 2 5 7 9 10 times then it gets out of hand.
amnesia:
Well this is always fun. But what I hate most is when they wait until nearly the end of the game to tell you. tidus, Cloud, squall, so when you first start playing and your like oh these people just meet up and they're all a member of seed but they then find out they grew up together. I still don't know how the hell some one could forget growing up with someone. I just don't know. but me myself I would use a amnesia story to make you think twise what really is going on before the character was a hero.
Overly Complicated Puzzles that Require a Strategy Guide
well ff10 did this to be a couple of time. as did games like silent hill but thats not an RPG. If you really hate them stick to arcade games because in less it makes me break my controller I don't have a problem with them.
Weapons that Can Only be Received After Meeting Very Specific, Secret Parameters
I like games like fight a monster get a weapon, or find a chest get a weapon. No getting a useless item or more to build a great weapon. Now if they made the other items able to use before and after. well that wouldn't be so bad. Oh yeah Zodiak Spear FU square enix.
Overly Chatty Cutscenes During a Cataclysmic Moment
oh yeah this is a good moment if it wasn't a whole bunch of pressing Ok or having stupid talk. I like to sometimes just press skip if it really bothers me.
Constant Party Switching
hey I like it. what I hate is when they choice for you. sometimes they can choice your worst characters.
Boys Up Front, Girls in the Back
call me a sexist I think girls belong in the back.
The Nearly Invulnerable Random Encounter Enemy
yeah the levels would be cool but when they give you one of these and most of all you can't run, that gets old and miserable.
The Plot Starring an Angsty, Unassuming Teenage Hero Who Will Save the Universe
yeah my impression of a hero is like a 30 year old man. Not a cry baby like tidus or a dunce like Vaan. You have to give the main dumb hero super powers that are discussed in the story.
Well that does it. After writing all of that i hate rpgs period. Nah I'm gonna love them until I'm dead probally. plus I can get past the parts I hate to see the parts I will love.
Marcus
"No cloud, no squall shall hinder us!" - FF9
Games completed - 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10, 10-2, 12, 13, 13-2, 13-3 Tactics, Tactics Advanced, Crisis Core, Dirge of Cerberus, KH, KH2, And played 11.
I once made an RPG, and the only cliche out of those I used was "destruction of home village". There was also a level cap but that was due to the limitations of RPG Maker 2000 that was unavoidable, plus the game was beatable somewhere around level 15 as it was more about figuring out boss' attack patterns and remembering to cast a paralysis spell on Skeptopotamus.
Going off the "Grand List of Console RPG Cliches" or whatever it was called, I think the game matched four of them, and one of them was a gameplay trait (one of the party members had a gun with infinite ammo).
Now that I think about it I'm beginning to appreciate what FFXII did more and more. It actually didn't do a lot of the common cliches in the genre and makes me wonder, do people hate the game because it didn't do so many cliches?
Are you referring to turn-based combat or random battles? I know they go hand in hand but I don't get your problem with random battles while I could fully understand an issue with turn-based combat.
I'm talking about random battles. I may never play another game with random battles in them because they just so damn annoying. (And whether battles are random or not has nothing to do with whether the combat is turn based or not.)
The thing I don't like about XII's non-random battles is that is way too much like a Western RPG, and that is something that Final Fantasy should never ever try to be. The game was a snooze-fest and many of the battles did not hold the drama they do in a turn-based ATB setting.
I prefer random battles in certain games, but I don't mind them not being random, as long as the developers don't smurf it up. An example in which I can think it was bad was Mystic Quest. I don't mind then not being random, but they can't just sit there. They need to move around and at sometimes chase you.
I don't think that random battles can be called a "cliché" anymore than hit points can be called a cliché.
I will never understand the appeal of random encounters.
I found the encounters of XII to be far more epic than actually having random encounters. The only time random encounters become epic is when you occasionally run into that "random monster of near-invulnerability" beyond that they are tedious after the first 15 minutes of the game. Especially when you are trying to do something like a puzzle or you just want to leave the area and move on.
I like how XII made the cannon fodder monsters interact with each other (calling for help, luring you into traps, forcing you to not use certain abilities so you don't get killed) they felt like a part of the world itself.
I never even thought of random encounters as part of the formula of an RPG, I always felt it was a solution to technical problems caused by limited technology. Considering RPGs are based on pen and paper RPGs like D&D where the random encounters have more impact and bearing than "surprise! you get to fight another bunny slime!". With better technology we can finally be rid of this archaic nonsense.
True beauty exists in things that last only for a moment.
Current Mood: And it's been a long December and there's reason to believe. Maybe this year will be better than the last. I can't remember all the times I tried to tell myself. To hold on to these moments as they pass...
15) Level Caps Who cares? When you play a video game, you play by the rules designed for that video game. Perhaps a level 20 cap is required to make the game's difficulty curve and mechanics work?
14) Enemy Levels that Scale
To be a cliche you sort of have to like ... appear a lot. I have not played many RPGs with this gameplay element, and further, who cares?
13) Fetch Quests
I dislike these greatly and they should be abolished completely because I would rather have a quality 10 hour RPG than aty one filled with fetch quests and other useless gameplay elements to bump up the play time.
12) Multi-Stage Boss Fights
NO. I LOVE THESE THINGS <3.
11) Scripted Battles You Are Forced to Lose
These are very annoying for the reason roto stated (item useage, etc.) but, in the 16 bit era they were pretty useful for being cinematic. I enjoyed them more when I didn't have to control my characters, though, because then I KNEW I was supposed to lose.
10) Bosses That Are Immune to All Status Effects
This is a really big pet peeve, actually. I think that status effects, if used correctly, add a lot of depth to gameplay. FFX, for instance, I thought handled status effects pretty well.
9) The Destruction of a Home Village
I dislike this because I have seen it a million times.
8) Amnesia
H8.
7) Overly Complicated Puzzles that Require a Strategy Guide
Obviously. This isn't a cliche though, again, this is merely bad game design.
6) Weapons that Can Only be Received After Meeting Very Specific, Secret Parameters
I am indifferent to this because half the time I don't even know these items exist.
5) Overly Chatty Cutscenes During a Cataclysmic Moment
Blegh, I never notice this.
4) Constant Party Switching
Annoying. Case and point - Vaan, Basch, and Ashe = level 12, Fran, Penelo, and Balthier = level 62.
3) Boys Up Front, Girls in the Back
I dislike this just based on the inherent sexism. Female characters are far too often given the "healer/nurturer" role or the "strange arcane magic user that no one understands because they are a strange woman" role. Let's break the molds, people.
2) The Nearly Invulnerable Random Encounter Enemy
Eh, L2+R2 always worked for me.
1) The Plot Starring an Angsty, Unassuming Teenage Hero Who Will Save the Universe
This can be done right and proper. But it usually isnt.
I also agree with MILF's comment on silent protagonists, which are quite possibly the simplest way to alienate the player from the character who's role they are assuming.
In all, that article was kind of silly. 80% of the author's points on the list were just bad game design as opposed to actual cliches.
To each his own. Like Yaridovich, the western-imitating open field for battles in XII was more boring to me than previous FF's. I know I've been over this before, but the use of the 3d camera, as a movie director would use it, in the middle of a turn-based battle, is epic to me. More cinematic than a gamer could be with a free camera. I just really wasn't pulled in sitting there watching pre-determined battle actions unfold to an inevitable outcome. Although i will say, for a game in which you basically do nothing, there was a hell of alot of strategy in FFXII.I will never understand the appeal of random encounters.
I found the encounters of XII to be far more epic than actually having random encounters. The only time random encounters become epic is when you occasionally run into that "random monster of near-invulnerability" beyond that they are tedious after the first 15 minutes of the game. Especially when you are trying to do something like a puzzle or you just want to leave the area and move on.
I like how XII made the cannon fodder monsters interact with each other (calling for help, luring you into traps, forcing you to not use certain abilities so you don't get killed) they felt like a part of the world itself.
I never even thought of random encounters as part of the formula of an RPG, I always felt it was a solution to technical problems caused by limited technology. Considering RPGs are based on pen and paper RPGs like D&D where the random encounters have more impact and bearing than "surprise! you get to fight another bunny slime!". With better technology we can finally be rid of this archaic nonsense.
I don't know what to say about RPG cliches. When it comes to art, you can quantify techniques and categorize established methods, but there's something beyond that when it comes to judging whether something is good or not. Shining Force is probably the most cliche RPG I've ever played, but it's one of my favorites, I just have fun playing it, and its sequel is probably my favorite 16-bit RPG. I think a game could follow all 15 of those points (except for the specific and unseen weapon conditions) and still be a great game.
Well, I agree that I do enjoy cinematics in an RPG battle system. I feel the gaming medium should use cinematics whenever they can unless it gets in the way of gameplay. RPGs generally don't make this gaming sin though I have had a few times when the cinematic camera moved to an awkward view and reversed targeting controls but these are generally few and far between.To each his own. Like Yaridovich, the western-imitating open field for battles in XII was more boring to me than previous FF's. I know I've been over this before, but the use of the 3d camera, as a movie director would use it, in the middle of a turn-based battle, is epic to me. More cinematic than a gamer could be with a free camera. I just really wasn't pulled in sitting there watching pre-determined battle actions unfold to an inevitable outcome. Although I will say, for a game in which you basically do nothing, there was a hell of alot of strategy in FFXII.
The only problem I have with a cinematic camera is that its really cool the first hundred battles, and of course most boss battles make splendid use of it but after awhile, you stop noticing it. In my current playthrough of VII, I only noticed the camera again cause you brought it back to my attention in another thread. Its actually a really cool camera system but it didn't change the fact I stopped noticing it a few hours into the game. Even then, most RPGs don't make good use of dynamic camera systems, barely changing the angle every battle and only utilizing it when the character uses a special move or spell and even then most RPGs don't use it well including FF.
My love of XII's camera system has more to do with the exploration aspect of the game. I feel it created better immersion by allowing you to see the world around you. Perhaps not very good at making battles feel special but it made exploring the cities and landscape far more exciting. Other games that use similar camera styles also utilized it for puzzles and hidden treasure. I'm a little bias cause I really dislike pre-rendered backgrounds with 3D models ever since the days of VII. I just never felt it worked well in 3D. Besides, today's technology makes me feel its a relic of the past.
Course I believe we can reach an agreement, a cinematic camera is still easily possible without returning back to random encounters. A seamless transition from exploration to a dynamic battle system is quite plausible and to be honest; I feel XIII may perhaps be the game to show us.
I actually agree, Persona 3 hits many of the biggest RPG cliches and still I feel its one of the best RPGs to come out in a decade. I can't believe how much it blew me away. Yet here I see the problem with cliches. I feel they are labeled thus cause very few RPGs use them alot and very few ever use them well. I can forgive a game using certain cliches if its done really well or has a unique spin to it but if its not used effectively I can understand how it takes away from the enjoyment factor. Not so much the gameplay aspect but the story aspect. Its getting harder to find a good RPG that doesn't poorly rip off ideas from the genres 20+ year history.I don't know what to say about RPG cliches. When it comes to art, you can quantify techniques and categorize established methods, but there's something beyond that when it comes to judging whether something is good or not. Shining Force is probably the most cliche RPG I've ever played, but it's one of my favorites, I just have fun playing it, and its sequel is probably my favorite 16-bit RPG. I think a game could follow all 15 of those points (except for the specific and unseen weapon conditions) and still be a great game.
True beauty exists in things that last only for a moment.
Current Mood: And it's been a long December and there's reason to believe. Maybe this year will be better than the last. I can't remember all the times I tried to tell myself. To hold on to these moments as they pass...
Agreed.
To tell the truth, that's probably the reason I haven't played as many new RPG's, other than Square-Enix DS games, in the last few years. I kind of feel like Japan has taken a backseat, relying on what it already knows - this could really be the first time in gaming that you actually see developers going back to older tech for new products. I want to see a new game that is not only very good, but actually makes some noise, too. Although I have yet to play Persona 3, it continues to appeal to me more and more.I actually agree, Persona 3 hits many of the biggest RPG cliches and still I feel its one of the best RPGs to come out in a decade. I can't believe how much it blew me away. Yet here I see the problem with cliches. I feel they are labeled thus cause very few RPGs use them alot and very few ever use them well. I can forgive a game using certain cliches if its done really well or has a unique spin to it but if its not used effectively I can understand how it takes away from the enjoyment factor. Not so much the gameplay aspect but the story aspect. Its getting harder to find a good RPG that doesn't poorly rip off ideas from the genres 20+ year history.
I find myself having the same problem with the genre, but I highly recommend you at least check out P3. It starts a little slow but once the Social Links pop in you get hooked pretty quickly trying to sort out your schedule. The game is incredibly well done and features, though not the most original plot, the characters themselves drive it into a compelling opera. The battle system is also nothing to sneeze at.
True beauty exists in things that last only for a moment.
Current Mood: And it's been a long December and there's reason to believe. Maybe this year will be better than the last. I can't remember all the times I tried to tell myself. To hold on to these moments as they pass...
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