No.
Robots and time travel and electricity and machines and science fiction. Thoughts?
No.
Robots and time travel and electricity and machines and science fiction. Thoughts?
Now FFXIII that's a sci-fi game. From what I've seen of it it looks like it was made by the creators of The Matrix.
what's the topic again?
Robots are generally only interesting when Asimov does them, Time travel is generally a terrible story element (except in the Chrono series) and I wish it could be banned, the nature of electricity was discovered by Ben Franklin during a kite flying experiment, and what type of machines? Building equipment? Roto, do you secretly want SE to make you a Bob the Builder RPG?Originally Posted by Roto13
Whether VII's story is good enough to stand a change into a different art medium. Would VII fans think it less of a game had it been 2D. The answer so far seems to be a resounding yes.what's the topic again?
True beauty exists in things that last only for a moment.
Current Mood: And it's been a long December and there's reason to believe. Maybe this year will be better than the last. I can't remember all the times I tried to tell myself. To hold on to these moments as they pass...
OH MY GOD YES!Robots are generally only interesting when Asimov does them, Time travel is generally a terrible story element (except in the Chrono series) and I wish it could be banned, the nature of electricity was discovered by Ben Franklin during a kite flying experiment, and what type of machines? Building equipment? Roto, do you secretly want SE to make you a Bob the Builder RPG? ;)
OH MY GOD YES!Whether VII's story is good enough to stand a change into a different art medium. Would VII fans think it less of a game had it been 2D. The answer so far seems to be a resounding yes. :p
What I was aiming at was the overall vibe of the game. Every single game from I to VI has a very similar vibe (although, even VI gets slightly too SF for me with those mecha things). Pure fantasy. Swords, sorcery, castles, goblins, princesses, dragons, etc. It seems like everything post VI (save IX) went in a completely different direction . . . one with MORE technology and LESS of the stuff that makes for fantasy. For me.
I apologize for getting us so off topic, I just want to say again - fantasy does NOT mean one set thing - it is a very large category with several major and popular subgenres. It's ok to use your own meanings of words, but none of the FF's are sci fi in anyway. Calling something sci-fi because "technology" is present in it is a dumbed-down, trivializing way of categorizing things.
Back on topic:
Juxtaposing these first 2 sentences seems to me to be a very sneaky way of connecting unrelated ideas.
1) How the story would hold up is irrelevant to art medium. VII clearly is longer, more complex, employs more layers of plot, uses more literary techniques, and has much more developed/thought-out dialogue than nearly every previous mainstream JRPG.
2) VII would be less of a game in 2d, not because it would no longer have its graphics to support it, but because STORY IS NOT EVERYTHING IN A GAME!. So many factors of the direction Squaresoft took are why it had such an earth-shattering impact in multiple continents in 1997. No 2 field screens looked alike; hell, no 2 battles really looked alike; The artwork was so detailed in so many areas, there were so many refreshing things it brought to gaming which contributed to its success. And because alot of these things simply cannot be achieved in 2d, yes it would be less of a game.
Edit: Bolivar said it better than I.
Want to emphasize this, as it is absolutely true.
that is so true, the story isn't everything, there is also graphics (setting/effects) & music as well... i always find it annoying when a jaded old school purist comes into a later FF forum and starts spouting off that VII and up are lesser games because they have blatant signs of technology in their settings and better graphics, they tend to equate better graphics with lack of story and that just is not true... there are many factors that make up a great game not just one factor alone... sure you can have a good story but having a vivid lush environment makes it that much more enjoyable, and having that environment with really great music makes for a truly entertaining experience... i love all the FFs and can say from my perspective they have only gotten better with time, of course the exception being that giant leap backwards FFIX, but even it had great graphics and beautiful music...
Just one of the few things that counts in an RPG.
Depends on the gamer, really. The three most important things for me in an RPG is the Story, the Music, and the Gameplay, in that order :</>D!Edit: Bolivar said it better than I.
Want to emphasize this, as it is absolutely true.
ANYWAY.
If FFVII had come out in 2D and not 3D, then I probably would have gotten around to playing it, and would have liked it. Some things wouldn't translate over well.
...but if it were to be released in 2D I wouldn't pay for it because I already have the game and I do not need two copies. Plus I do usually like 3D better when given the option.
You people need to lay off the hateraid. That much of it isn't good for your health.OH MY GOD YES!Whether VII's story is good enough to stand a change into a different art medium. Would VII fans think it less of a game had it been 2D. The answer so far seems to be a resounding yes.what's the topic again?
The whole 2D vs 3D argument is completely meaningless for an RPG, especially for one that primitive in the 3D-era, and you're all just making yourselves look dumb. If Seven looked like Six it'd be exactly the same game minus a few FMVs. People wondering if the Seven fans would love the game as much should ask themselves if they would've liked it better had it been exactly the same with sprites. Because "the answer so far seems to be a resounding yes." And that close-minded, shallow look on gaming amuses me.
Actually, I only said something cause many people were alluding to 2D damaging the games story so I brought it into focus. Beside, nothing gets the fans more riled up than alluding to this game not being super special awesome
I'm only quoting you that far because after the longer part, I completely disagree. VII is not really complex, its just told in a convulated way. I still argue that your belief in VII's mature social commentary is as relevant as me or any VI fan saying VI has it for teen pregnancy and unfair class systems. Its generally mentioned once and hardly touched upon... Yet this is not the place to get into that.1) How the story would hold up is irrelevant to art medium. VII clearly is longer...
Actually the art medium does matter in certain cases. If used correctly, you can enhance story elements that otherwise would feel dry or uninteresting. On the other hand, poor use of the medium can damage strong story sequences. Personally, I feel VII's story would hold up rather well in 2D. Even if it was VI style 2D I feel the plot and characters would hold up as well to me as they did in 3D.
I agree to a point. The battle screen is a gross exaggeration though2) VII would be less of a game in 2d, not because it would no longer have its graphics to support it, but because STORY IS NOT EVERYTHING IN A GAME!. So many factors of the direction Squaresoft took are why it had such an earth-shattering impact in multiple continents in 1997. No 2 field screens looked alike; hell, no 2 battles really looked alike; The artwork was so detailed in so many areas, there were so many refreshing things it brought to gaming which contributed to its success. And because alot of these things simply cannot be achieved in 2d, yes it would be less of a game.
The problem with gameplay though, is that with the exception of the camera angle in combat and the pre-rendered CGI cutscenes, VII does not really utilize 3D in any way that takes advantage of its third dimension that could not have been done in 2D.
The backgrounds are far more detailed, but you still interact with them as though they were a 2D plane. The combat system has a cool camera system that pans around but the characters are still lined up as well as the monsters and ATB works like it did in earlier installments.
Even the mini-games that utilize the 3D never do anything elaborate enough that couldn't have been done in 2D using Mode 7. Actually, the modern summon system was a result of the 3D engine but like many of the visual wonders in VII or any game for that matter, you stop paying attention after the 100th time its used.
The character models themselves have very few actual animations (in normal play, not combat) that it could be handled with sprites. I only said VI style to rile people up but perhaps they could utilize more modern 2D techniques.
I'm not really attacking the game so much as just pointing out that VII's use of 3D would allow it to be translated rather well into 2D if SE felt like screwing with people. Of anything, it would get the fanboys who douse the game for only being special cause it was in 3D off your back cause the game (I feel) would hold up rather well. Personally, I've always felt VII was just a 2D RPG done in 3D, and I'm not really saying that to diss the game. The fact of the matter is that 2D is just another art medium and this is something I feel modern generations of gamers cannot perceive. Very few RPGs utilize 3D for gameplay, rather they keep it for the art form and immersion factor.
I'm old school but it doesn't mean I hate modern gaming.To be honest, my top favorite RPGs actually hail from the post-VII era (Xenogears, Persona 3, FFT etc...). My problem with newer FFs is not so much because of jealousy of technology but rather I feel they are poorly written and a few of them hide their flaws in the technology. To me, VII doesn't really do this, though I feel the fans use the technology factor as a shield to cover the games flaws instead of accepting the fact it has a few logical problems.
I agree that immersion factor is incredibly beneficial for a game, but where I disagree is how its been utilized. The only FF game to utilize 3D well in the form of immersion is XII. Why? Cause its actually 3D and you can interact and move around in it. VII-X utilize Pre-rendered backgrounds that for the most part (though there are minor exceptions) are still interacted by the player as though you were playing a 2D title. I can appreciate X's backgrounds for their beauty but I do not find them immersive cause it becomes obvious that they are non-interactive due to being pre-rendered.
To be honest, I didn't mind this fact until I played XII and experienced what true immersion in FF could be. Now its hard for me to appreciate the old ways. They are pretty, and I do admire the detail but saying they allowed deep immersion in a way that 2D can't is just silly. 2D is a different art form and though the gaming community has mostly forsaken it, playing through the few that have survived is a breathtaking experience.
I didn't start this thread as a means to bash VII but rather as a means to set people straight on the subject of 2D vs. 3D. To make this more interesting, if VII could be redone in more modern 2D would you still feel the game would fall short of its original greatness?
Last edited by Wolf Kanno; 08-23-2008 at 08:31 PM.
True beauty exists in things that last only for a moment.
Current Mood: And it's been a long December and there's reason to believe. Maybe this year will be better than the last. I can't remember all the times I tried to tell myself. To hold on to these moments as they pass...
The line between complex and convoluted is paper thin. I look at convoluted as being something that is not fully explained. Or twisting something to make it seem like something it's not. Which is not at all the case with Final Fantasy VII. Everything in the story is fully explained. There aren't any "Guardian Forces made us forget stuff"-sized plot holes, and the only thing convoluted would be the poor translation. And that is certainly not the story's fault. Of course, that's only how I look at defining it.
And part of why the story lines of games like Final Fantasy VI and Final Fantasy VII are so revered and have withstood the test of time is because they touch upon mature, deep, and complicated situations. That they touch upon them is fact, whether or not you can relate, or find any entertainment value in them, is your own personal opinion.
This is something that's completely true, but nobody ever bothers to mention, and this is EXACTLY why I always thought it would have been better in 2D. The 3D aspect of the game pretty much just trades in sprites and grids for little lego models. The quality of the sprites in Final Fantasy VI and Chrono Trigger was higher than the quality of the character models in VII. Plus, the backgrounds were basically just JPEGs.
I actually agree with you about the endearing quality of VI and VII as well as most of the FFs but I do feel VII is convulated.
Warning! I am only going to make this comment once and any further deviation from the thread topic shall be ignored cause this is not a place for plot analysis. If you want to discuss these plot elements, make another thread please.
As for my reasoning...
The Reunion is never given a proper explanation and acts more like a red herring than an actual plot element. The Ultimania, I feel explains the situation much better. Tifa keeping the truth from Cloud is also never really touched upon in a satisfactory manner nor does the games explanation leave enough logical reasoning for the player to come to a satisfactory conclusion. My only reasoning I can find is that its never explained so the whole plot twist about Cloud would be more exciting and surprising. These are about the only two that really bother me and everything else is more of personal taste than faulty writing.
Back on topic...
I understand that some people were fully impressed with the change to 3D back 97. I was not one of them. Virtua Fighter was impressive cause it brought a major new gameplay element, even Mario 64 utilized 3D in a way to bring a radical change to the genre. Its not so much that VII didn't utilize 3D well as much as its the problem that turn-based JRPGs do not gain much for jumping to the 3D world. It gained a graphical boost and for some that might have been enough. Yet, I cannot say the jump to 3D was really significant for the turn-based RPG genre.
Graphically? Yes. gameplay-wise? Not so much though there are glaring exceptions. This is not to say 3D is inferior to 2D or even that RPGs would have been better off staying 2D cause the benefits are slight. Rather that only until this past generation have we seen JRPGs utilize 3D effectively. One is not superior to another, rather they are different styles that have different strengths and weaknesses. Yes, there are certain genres that benefit more from one style to another. I think most would agree that 2D is a lousy art form to use to make an FPS yet at the same time, 3D cannot do Metroidvania style games to save their life.
True beauty exists in things that last only for a moment.
Current Mood: And it's been a long December and there's reason to believe. Maybe this year will be better than the last. I can't remember all the times I tried to tell myself. To hold on to these moments as they pass...
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