Whats your take on Piracy?

[Madame Adequate]

I seriously don't understand why you guys are trying to rely on these technicalities to claim that it's not theft. What's the point? Does not being labeled a thief really make that much of a difference to you? Like I said earlier in the thread, does it really make you feel better about yourself?

Because it's accurate. Nothing else. If it was theft I'd call it theft. It's not theft, legally, and the law is what matters.

You can argue all you want about infringement and how stealing a car is sooooo different from stealing Photoshop but any person with common sense can look at the situation, see that someone is getting Photoshop for free when they should be paying for it, and determine that what just happened was theft.

When you 'steal' someone's copy of Photoshop, they can still use it. That's one of the big differences here, and why the theft tag isn't the best one. Theft carries implications that are not accurate; it's not about feeling better about oneself (if anything I feel worse about copyright issues than theft, in fact), it's about accuracy. I mean, come on Miriel, if you don't recognize that people like me and Roto are needlessly pedantic by now...

From Wiki: "The actus reus of theft is usually defined as an unauthorised taking, keeping or using of another's property which must be accompanied by a mens rea of dishonesty and/or the intent to permanently deprive the owner or the person with rightful possession of that property or its use."

[Peegee]

Be honest, you wouldn't.

If it were possible and I could drive the car around without being obvious I downloaded the car (a very difficult feat as I would lack registration and insurance), I would totally download a car.

I would even go so far as to download a motorcycle. Hey, if you're going to download a vehicle, make it hot enough to get you girls.

What's the topic about again? Oh right

I have no problem with piracy [doing]. I have a lot of problems with piracy [law] versus what I do [illegal pirating]. In short, I know I'm guilty but nobody's prosecuted me yet.

[Breine]

Look, will Breine and Miriel please tell us what exactly it is that is being stolen? There is indeed something that is being stolen in piracy, but it's not the product itself, which is what Roto is trying to tell you. I know what's being stolen, but it seems you don't, so until you give the answer...

...you're going to keep sounding like a bloody ignorant parrot and Roto is gonna keep tearing you a new asshole.

Please continue tearing these bloody ignorant parrots a new asshole, Roto.

And no, the use of "parrot" is not intended to be in any way connected to pirates. They're just a good example of something whose intellectual limits stretch as far as repeating words they don't even understand.

STEALING STEALING STEALING!

Stop quoting crap you don't understand.

You download something you should be paying for, meaning you take something you should be paying for but you're not.. and that is stealing. It's as simple as that.

[Quindiana Jones]

There's actually a case where a man who worked in a cinema took the film reels, copied them, then brought them back. He was tried for stealing, but got away with it because stealing is taking something that doesn't belong to you with the intention to keep it. Since the guy brought the reels back, he wasn't stealing. However, he was breaking a law, just the the theft law.

Stealing would be renting a DVD and keeping it. What Roto does is rent a DVD, copy it, then bring it back, having paid the rent charges. He's not stealing, but he's still being a very naughty boy. If he wanted to be a very very naughty boy, he'd rent the DVD, copy it, return the original, then sell the copies for his own profit. Shame on Roto.

[Madame Adequate]

You download something you should be paying for, meaning you take something you should be paying for but you're not.. and that is stealing. It's as simple as that.

Then address this:

If it was theft there wouldn't be any commercial copyright laws on the books because you'd just get done for theft.

[Roto13]

you take something

See, that's the thing. You don't take anything.

[Miriel]

Ok. So let's say you have this really awesome idea for a new video game. And someone comes around and looks through all your notes and goes out and makes the exact same game before you have the chance to do the same.

Now what would any sane normal person say to that? "Some dude infringed on my intellectual property!!"

No. They would say, "Smurfing jackass stole my idea!"

Get it? Get it? Now don't come at me with any, "well, ACTUALLY, the law says blah blah...." What I'm trying to illustrate and what Breine and I have been saying all along is that it's pretty easy and quite normal to look at pirating and see that it's stealing. I keep saying this over and over, but it's just common sense. And we're using the word "steal" and "theft" the way more average people use the those words. In the general usage of those words and what those words mean to most people.

And you will never ever convince me that people who download stuff have never, not once, downloaded something that otherwise they would have paid for. I don't buy that at all.

[Yamaneko]

Pirating is not stealing.

[ReloadPsi]

And you will never ever convince me that people who download stuff have never, not once, downloaded something that otherwise they would have paid for. I don't buy that at all.

Well I guess we'll never know because Daria still isn't on DVD. Illegal bootlegs exist but by your definition that's "stealing" so I'd better not buy that because spending whatever they charge to "steal" something I've already "stolen" is a wasted investment.

you take something

What's that "something"? It can't be the copy of the movie; the DVD is still in the shop with a security tag on it.

"Steal" is a transitive verb in that it requires a subject and at least one object. So far all I've seen is subjects, "You're stealing!" and no objects... just people saying "You're stealing!" over and over. As a very pedantic (albeit dyslexic) grammatician, this does not annoy me as much as seeing "would of", "should of", "could of" or any other prepositions being used as auxiliary verbs but it's high up there.

This is a trivia question: What is being stolen?

I'm still waiting for you to show that you understand this the way I do. Until then I'll continue to assume what I've already assumed of you... you're parroting a word someone else told you to use. I don't care if you think I'm being rude, I'm trying to squeeze out proof that you get this, so don't hide behind the way it gets worded. If I had a penny for each time someone was rude to me on this Internet I'd buy the freakin' rights to broadcast my favourite unreleased shows on TV just to watch them myself. Good art is worth good money

[Miriel]

Haha, you better care because that warning I gave you was an official one.

You're trying to argue from a standpoint where theft can only be applied to physical products. Obviously we live in a world that is completely different from a world of 50 years ago. Physical products aren't the only things that are being sold anymore. I work as a photographer. If someone managed to get a hold of a COPY of my photographs and got them for free, I would still call it theft, even though the original files remain untouched on my computer. I honestly don't care if people come up with new words to express the same thing. Oooh, it's not stealing it's infringement of copyright! Amounts to pretty much the same thing, imho.

Parroting a word someone else told me to use? Who? Who exactly told me to use that word? Do YOU know who I've been talking to? Who I've had conversations with, what kind of media I consume? Which Wiki pages I browse? Nope, you don't. So don't make silly little assumptions like that. Cause... well, it's silly.

[Fonzie]

Haha, you better care because that warning I gave you was an official one.

[M. Night Shaymalan] What a twist! [/M. Night Shaymalan]

[Yamaneko]

There's nothing wrong with theft at any level. If people are too stupid or weak to protect their possessions then they deserve to have them taken away.

[demondude]

a. Robbery committed at sea.
b. A similar act of robbery, as the hijacking of an airplane.
2. The unauthorized use or reproduction of copyrighted or patented material: software piracy.
3. The operation of an unlicensed, illegal radio or television station.

That's a dictionary definition, it doesn't say the word "stole" or "steal" but It sounds just as bad to be honest.

[Clouded Sky]

Pirating is not stealing.

[Roto13]

Ok. So let's say you have this really awesome idea for a new video game. And someone comes around and looks through all your notes and goes out and makes the exact same game before you have the chance to do the same.

Now what would any sane normal person say to that? "Some dude infringed on my intellectual property!!"

No. They would say, "Smurfing jackass stole my idea!"

Get it? Get it? Now don't come at me with any, "well, ACTUALLY, the law says blah blah...." What I'm trying to illustrate and what Breine and I have been saying all along is that it's pretty easy and quite normal to look at pirating and see that it's stealing. I keep saying this over and over, but it's just common sense. And we're using the word "steal" and "theft" the way more average people use the those words. In the general usage of those words and what those words mean to most people.

And you will never ever convince me that people who download stuff have never, not once, downloaded something that otherwise they would have paid for. I don't buy that at all.

It's not stealing, it's plagiarism. :D

When people say their idea has been stolen, they're speaking figuratively, not literally. I guess you could make the case that you can say, figuratively, that you're stealing when you download a movie or something, but literally and legally, that's not what you're doing.

I've never downloaded something I otherwise would have bought, but I have downloaded movies I would have rented. I seriously buy as many CDs and DVDs now as I did before I got a decent internet connection. And I buy games like every couple of weeks. Just now I bought a Wii Points card so I can be ready for Cho Aniki on Monday and Mega Man 9 later this month. I could very easily download an emulator to play Cho Aniki (and even use it on my Wii so it'd be almost exactly the same as playing the Virtual Console version). (I don't know if there's ever going to be a PC version of Mega Man 9, though. xP)

Once I finish Disgaea, I'm considering picking up the PS3 version of Oblivion, even though it would be cheaper and easier to download the superior PC version.

But yeah, I do download movies rather than renting them most of the time. :P

a. Robbery committed at sea.
b. A similar act of robbery, as the hijacking of an airplane.
2. The unauthorized use or reproduction of copyrighted or patented material: software piracy.
3. The operation of an unlicensed, illegal radio or television station.

That's a dictionary definition, it doesn't say the word "stole" or "steal" but It sounds just as bad to be honest.

Sure thing. But being just as bad doesn't make it the same thing, though.