Rinoa

[Aerith's Knight]

In fact, Ellone makes it a point to explain that she learned that you cannot alter time. All her attempts only made the the events she wished to change come true. VIII's view of time and time travel for lack of any better explanation given by the story, the Ultimania, or even Square itself points to the fact that time is linear and unchangeable in the VIII Mythos.

I've never played FFVIII before so I really have no idea what any you are talking about, but if they were doing time travel in the manner of Lost (which is possible from that description) then not being able to alter the future wouldn't really preclude Rinoa from being Ultimecia, because "whatever happened, happened" - in other words, if a time traveller's actions alter the past, it's because the time traveller's actions were supposed to alter the past. Then again that might completely contradict other aspects of FFVIII's plot; like I said, I don't know.

No, that actually sums it up pretty well. It's like a self-fulfilling prophesy.

[Wolf Kanno]

That's how the game explains it. Ellone tries to save Laguna and uses Squall team to alter history to help him but all she ends up doing by meddling is making sure history stays on course cause it counted on her try and meddle with it. History is basically unchangeable.

Void was suggesting that their is an alternate timeline where Squall failed at a certain event in VIII's story to help Rinoa and in this timeline Rinoa eventually became Ultemacia; but if history is unchangeable and any attempt to altering it makes it happen then this scenario is impossible cause VIII's Law of Time Travel would suggest Squall would either always fail or save her depending on which event is true. VIII's story never mentions alternate time lines being possible. VIII's time travel is pretty straight forward and is very similar to Greek tragedies, in where the hero learns of a terrible prophecy concerning themselves and in the course of trying to change it, they make it come true.

I felt VIII was rather thorough on explaining how time travel worked in its world. I don't understand why people insist on placing alternate theories on how time travel works from other fiction into the VIII mythos.

[Vost]

Your theory has little to back it up I'm afraid. Their is no reference at all in the game itslef, of an alternate timeline that Ultemacia hails from in the story. No mention of any parallel time lines. In fact, Ellone makes it a point to explain that she learned that you cannot alter time. All her attempts only made the the events she wished to change come true. VIII's view of time and time travel for lack of any better explanation given by the story, the Ultimania, or even Square itself points to the fact that time is linear and unchangeable in the VIII Mythos.

The fact that Squall and SeeD's actions lead to Ultemacia giving her powers away and thus allowing her the ability to travel to this time period, due to actually having something connecting her to it. Her powers.

Ultemacia has very little back story but the best theory I've heard concerning her motive is that due to the public spectacle of the wars Adel and Edea brought in the past, the general public in her time may have hunted Sorceress' out of fear of history repeating itself. Thus coming from a future where she was hunted and hated for no reason, she lost her mind and decided the world was her enemy. Regretfully, this theory cannot explain how Ultemacia learned about Time Compression but that whole nonsense has always been ill defined in the game.

The very nature of Time Compression does not necessarily mean that time is being altered, only that it is being compressed into one temporal singularity. Therefore, my theory can still hold next to the idea that the past cannot be changed. This is because it is no longer the 'past' or 'present' or 'future' per se, but rather ONE time. It is THIS one time that is changed, not the specific past or specific present or specific future that at one time was separate from it.

Your theory on Ultimecia's motivation is ridiculously weak. Mine ties the plot and explains her obsessions cogently. There is a lot of in game evidence to support this theory but I will not get into this here because it has already been mentioned in many other R=U posts.

[Vost]

That's how the game explains it. Ellone tries to save Laguna and uses Squall team to alter history to help him but all she ends up doing by meddling is making sure history stays on course cause it counted on her try and meddle with it. History is basically unchangeable.

Void was suggesting that their is an alternate timeline where Squall failed at a certain event in VIII's story to help Rinoa and in this timeline Rinoa eventually became Ultemacia; but if history is unchangeable and any attempt to altering it makes it happen then this scenario is impossible cause VIII's Law of Time Travel would suggest Squall would either always fail or save her depending on which event is true. VIII's story never mentions alternate time lines being possible. VIII's time travel is pretty straight forward and is very similar to Greek tragedies, in where the hero learns of a terrible prophecy concerning themselves and in the course of trying to change it, they make it come true.

I felt VIII was rather thorough on explaining how time travel worked in its world. I don't understand why people insist on placing alternate theories on how time travel works from other fiction into the VIII mythos.

It is quite disrespectful to butcher someone's handle when in conversation with them. How do you get 'Void' from 'Vost'? If that's the kind of attention you are utilizing, then you may have trouble exploring some of these arguments in depth.

V-O-S-T

[Vost]

Your theory has little to back it up I'm afraid.

It's funny how anytime the R=U theory is argued, opponents always use the phrase "Your theory has little to back it up I'm afraid," mostly because their own pathetic attempts to hold on to the version of the plot line that makes sense to them has no real or substantial arguments to eradicate the contrary.

The theory has an infinity of data to back it up, I'm afraid, :). To boot, it explains the central villain most perfectly and wraps up everything that was not wrapped up. It is an implication done vaguely on purpose.

-V-O-I-D...whoops, I mean V-O-S-T.

[Aerith's Knight]

Your theory has little to back it up I'm afraid.

It's funny how anytime the R=U theory is argued, opponents always use the phrase "Your theory has little to back it up I'm afraid," mostly because their own pathetic attempts to hold on to the version of the plot line that makes sense to them has no real or substantial arguments to eradicate the contrary.

The theory has an infinity of data to back it up, I'm afraid, . To boot, it explains the central villain most perfectly and wraps up everything that was not wrapped up. It is an implication done vaguely on purpose.

-V-O-I-D...whoops, I mean V-O-S-T.

There is so much wrong with this post I don't know where to begin.

1. If you don't actually have anything to back something up, no real conversation or facts besides the delusions cooked up by playing this game far too much, then yes, it is most likely WRONG! You can theorize that over the edge over the universe nothing exists but pink bunnies with carrots up their bum, just because we can't give hard evidence why it isn't there, and you can't give evidence why it is, doesn't mean it's true.

Your reasoning.. is backwards.

2. There is absolutely no data to back up R=U, that's why it's made fun of. If you want to wrap things up plot-wise with the image spinsels cooked up during your endless hours of triple triad, that's fine, but don't force it on other people.

3. How does it explain the villian in any way?

Ultimecia - wants to kill everything
Rinoa - doesnt want to kill everything.

The only thing we know about Ulti is that she wanted to be ruler of everything or kill everything or something like that, she is probably the least explained villian in the entire FF-series.

[champagne supernova]

Having more than one timelines is not that flawed an idea, as long as they are completely independent, and no movement can occur between the two. However, Vost's theory implies that someone can move between these timelines, which then makes everything fall apart.

So, here's my logic. If there is a different timeline depended on different interactions, there should be an infinite number of parallel timelines, with all different possible interactions (well, maybe not infinite, but as close to infinite that it makes very little difference). Vost's theory is that Rinoa gets caught in one, turns evil, becomes Ultimecia, and compresses all these timelines into one.

Now, back to the canon game script, Squall defeats Ultimecia and prevents time compression completing. However, he still gets lost in time, finding himself at the orphanage he remembers. However, there are a near infinite timelines that have the orphanage being like that (due new timelines being formed when a decision is made, to reflect the other decisions that weren't made). Therefore, Squall could feasibly land up in any one of these infinitely many (the odds of him falling into a specific one is 1/infinity, which is basically 0).

This leads us to what happens at the orphanage. Squall tells Edea the idea about SeeD. According to the canon story, Cid then forms Garden, trainig Squall and SeeDs in general, thereby allowing Squall to defeat Ultimecia, get caught in the time-trap, and speak to Edea.

So, he could land in many of the timelines that don't lead to SeeD, or end up with Squall or Rinoa dying before the game starts, tell Edea this, and nothing happens. But in the original timeline, without Squall being there, the entire game would not happen. This brings up some questions about what happens to Squall. Surely he cannot travel forward in time, because, by landing on the wrong timeline, he destroys the possibility of Rinoa becoming Ultimecia, and therefore the possibility of time compression. He also shouldn't be able to exist with his younger self, so he should fade away. Or, if he could get back to his right time, the world would be entirely different.

However, we know from the game that Squall does travel to the right time, where everything is identical. What this implies is that one cannot compress or move between timelines, because if one could, the game's events could not happen. Because of this, Ultimecia cannot be Rinoa from another parallel timeline, because she would not be able to interact with the original timeline.

That is a headache explanation though. Another simpler question is the simple one of how did Rinoa escape from the Sorceress Memorial?

[Rocket Edge]

Read question 4 in this post. Might clear things up.

[Wolf Kanno]

I am sorry for getting your name wrong but seriously? 3 posts telling me I got it wrong?

The very nature of Time Compression does not necessarily mean that time is being altered, only that it is being compressed into one temporal singularity. Therefore, my theory can still hold next to the idea that the past cannot be changed. This is because it is no longer the 'past' or 'present' or 'future' per se, but rather ONE time. It is THIS one time that is changed, not the specific past or specific present or specific future that at one time was separate from it.

First: I stated an in-game reference that strongly implies that alternate time lines cannot exist in VIII, you are just assuming that their is alternate time lines and you've stated nothing in the game that suggests it otherwise. Even when Dr. Odine mentions how time compression works, he mentions it would only make the past, present, and future into a singularity that can be experienced all at once and life would be extinguished except for her. He does not mention anything about all possible histories. He describes it as a singular line. Squall goes back and plants the knowledge of SeeD into Edea's mind but even this alteration still works with what Ellone stated cause Cid said that SeeD was Edea's idea.

Even if Ultemacia was Rinoa from an alternate Time line, she would only be able to travel back to her own timeline cause the rules of time travel stated by Ellone says you can only send your consciousness back to places and times you have a connection with. She should not be able to travel back into an alternate time past nor should her interference cause Squall to change the past.

Ellone's connection to the past is Laguna; for Ultemacia, it was her power. She gave it to Edea at the end, and this allowed the future Ultemacia to possess her. She wasn't able to control Rinoa until Ultemacia made Edea pass on her powers to her. If Ultemacia was Rinoa, she wouldn't have needed to do this, especially since its shown that the powers of the time traveler comes with them; otherwise Laguna wouldn't be able to use Junction magic.

Ultemacia also constantly puts Rinoa's life in danger and by possessing her, runs the risk of erasing or dramatically altering her existence by doing so, if she was Rinoa. Not only is there no evidence to suggest Ultemacia has no memory of her life as Rinoa but it can also be thought that wiping out her self in the distant past would in turn cause a time paradox. Yet, Rinoa can be blinked out of existence in the final battle. This alone shows how little thought was put into the idea of Time Compression in the game (since it still technically presents the paradox of Ultemacia killing her past self, regardless if its Rinoa or not.), and also shows why the simplistic rules of time travel presented in the story doesn't need to be bogged down by fictional or scientific theory.

Your theory on Ultimecia's motivation is ridiculously weak. Mine ties the plot and explains her obsessions cogently. There is a lot of in game evidence to support this theory but I will not get into this here because it has already been mentioned in many other R=U posts.

Its not my theory, just the only one that vaguely made sense. I personally feel Ultemacia is just a 2-Dimensional villain made in the same vain as the Cloud of Darkness or Zeromus. A plot twist villain that reveals themselves at the end and reveals they have been controlling who we thought were the real villains. Your theory isn't any better imo, cause it completely hinges on assumptions and theories and I don't feel it ties anything up storywise.

It's funny how anytime the R=U theory is argued, opponents always use the phrase "Your theory has little to back it up I'm afraid,"
The theory has an infinity of data to back it up, I'm afraid, . To boot, it explains the central villain most perfectly and wraps up everything that was not wrapped up. It is an implication done vaguely on purpose.

You presented no data, while I presented an in-game reference. How is this not "backing up my argument"? You presented no evidence just silly speculation and downright wishful thinking.

I also feel you should look at yourself in the mirror when you say comments like:

mostly because their own pathetic attempts to hold on to the version of the plot line that makes sense to them has no real or substantial arguments to eradicate the contrary.
- Vost (Void)

Seeing as how you presented no evidence and just gave your own perspective of the ending as evidence, I would say you are guilty of your own words.

The fundamental flaw of R=U is that its such a major plot twist that there is no real reason to keep it hidden with cryptic clues to tell only the most ardent of players the truth. Looking at the series as a whole, FF plots have always been pretty up front and the plot elements never explained are either not important (Who is Gogo?) or badly written (Orphanage!).

A twist like that (R=U) would be more central to the story and even if it were true; I feel it doesn't mesh well cause it presents too many unknown variable. It doesn't explain anything, it just makes you ask more questions. It presents too many variable for plot holes and contradictions (like the ones I pointed out in this post). Its cryptic-ness and contradictory nature makes it logically impossible. Time Compression is also a terrible excuse used to explain things. I feel champaign supernova's post highlighted this as well.

[Skyblade]

Saying that Rinoa becomes Ultimecia in no way explains the final villain. In order to accept the theory, a huge number of assumptions must be made, none of which are giving any support by the game. First, you would have to explain how Rinoa lives to exist in Ultimecia's time, "many generations in the future", despite Square-Enix specifically saying sorceresses don't have extended lifespans. Second, you have to give a reason why Rinoa would abandon her peace-loving principles and decide to destroy the world. And that second assumption is actually a whole series of assumptions, as I'll demonstrate here.

I'll use the most common argument, that Squall's death coupled with the prejudice against sorceresses drove her bonkers. In that case, explain the following:

Why does Rinoa not simply die right after Squall does? Even assuming the powers of a sorceress could sustain her life, she knows that it would be simple to give them up and be at peace.

Why does Rinoa not start attacking the world until many generations in the future? Squall certainly didn't live that long. Why hadn't she gone crazy much sooner?

Why would Rinoa, a well respected savior of the world, be persecuted and mistreated, especially when she is close friends with the most powerful nation on the planet and is married to the guy who runs Balamb Garden, a free floating city?

Why would Rinoa forget her past life with Squall in her insanity, prompting her to attack him when he faces Ultimecia at the endgame?

Why would Rinoa forget who she was and attack herself at the endgame? After all, if she simply wanted to do away with herself, she could have passed on her powers and perish.

Why would Rinoa forget her previous journey, her battle against Time Compression, only to decide to initiate it herself?

Why would Rinoa choose to name herself after an enemy who she fought so hard against?

Why would Rinoa remember the name Ultimecia, when she apparently forgot everything connected to the name, such as the fact they were enemies, or that they had fought across time itself?

Why would Rinoa replace the white wings on her outfit with black ones? It may seem a silly or minor point, but since it was one of the major points that started the whole R=U idiocy in the first place, you should explain it. After all, even had she gone completely insane and decided to destroy the world, why would she reverse her outfit's color scheme (red/black instead of blue/white)? It's not as though she would say "ooh, I'm evil, let's go pick out an outfit that matches that".

Any R=U theory is an incredibly long and fragile list of coincidences, none of which has any support in the game. And since each list in the chain builds off the other, the more assumptions you have to make (and there are far more than this), the weaker the argument gets.


And now I'll give your theory similar treatment.

There is a compelling argument in support of one aspect of the R=U theory

No, there isn't.

that involves the explanation of Ultimecia's ostensible vehemence against the world and all in it. Unlike the time sequence presented as canon in the actual story progression of the game, Rinoa, once confined in holding to stem the influence of witches in the world, remains there for an extended period of time.

And your evidence for this alternate timeline is where?

Her aging process thus slowed or even completely halted

Again, where is your evidence that this would happen?

her rescue is thwarted by her closest friends

Uh, huh, and why would her friends try to stop her rescue?

and she spends many, many years cursing her abandonment, cursing her captive state.

So, she locked in some form of stasis that not only slows aging, but slows the bodies metabolism down enough that she no longer needs to be fed, yet still has crystal clear thoughts of hatred for her incarceration.

Slowly, she is corrupted by her feelings of desperation; her virtue is weakened and the magic within her begins to degrade her, eventually cementing a new psychology of ire so profound that she is no longer Rinoa but rather Ultimecia.

Where is your evidence that the magic itself corrupts? And why would she choose the name Ultimecia, when that name and the battle against Ultimecia was the direct cause of all her pain?

Some time in the future, an event occurs that sets her free from her prison (an event that can be argued to be hinted upon in the game)

Um, let's see. A small detail in an alternate timeline than that which the game occurs can not be argued to be hinted upon. Since the game doesn't mention alternative timelines at all, it can't hint about an event that occured in a different one.

and she begins to plot her revenge.

Why would she plot revenge instead of choosing to enjoy her new freedom?

However, she does not merely wish to punish the world now as she exists in it,

Why not?

but to punish the world forever, especially the past where she believes she was betrayed by her confidantes and brutalized by those who hate magic and witches.

Your evidence of this betrayal and brutalization is..?

She hatches the plan of time compression

Even though Time Compression was the cause of all her pain.

and sets events in motion that come to dominate the plot of Final Fantasy 8. So corrupted is she by her hatred that she sees nothing worth saving anymore, nothing worth an ounce of compassion, even if she was capable of such a thing.

And your evidence of this hatred comes from? And why does she choose revenge on the world instead of just on those who betrayed her?

Her 'possession' of Rinoa is a recognition of her former self, even if only on a subconscious level, a self that she now despises and loathes when set in contrast to the powerful being she has become. Nothing is sacred anymore. The world will pay for the death of her liberty; they will pay for their betrayal.

Again, evidence? Also, if she hates her old self so much, why would she choose to possess her and sense all those hated old feelings and emotions so much?

But this time, because of her intervention in the past, things change. Squall and company do rescue Rinoa,

Whereas before they were responsible for stopping the rescue, despite still being "her friends".

before she is lost to time. But things are too late. Time compression has already begun and Ultimecia is invulnerable to the effects of past or future. Understanding her identity with Rinoa is key to the brilliance of the game: It presents an ultimate story of vindication, an ultimate story of love when Squall is reunited with Rinoa and he disavows any prejudice against her regarding her status as a witch. He declares he will stand by her regardless. This time, she is not betrayed. This time, injustice and fear break against the rock of true love.

Yes, it's a lovely fanfic, but unfortunately has absolutely nothing supporting it.

There are many things that I did not mention as far as practical possibility of the R=U theory goes. The above argument however addresses one of the central critiques in the theory. The R=U theory is that much stronger because it supplies a very clear and crisp motivation for Ultimecia's actions, as opposed to her just being a plot device.

Saying that she is Selphie hundreds of years in the future who got upset and decided to destroy the world because there are no more trains also explains the character. That doesn't make it any more plausible or less ridiculous.

Conclusion: R=U is likely or at least somewhat possible. Far from "highly unlikely." This should be changed since it perverts the game's beauty of subtle expression.

No, it isn't.

[The Last Oath]

Ahh hell. again!

[Vost]

There is so much wrong with this post I don't know where to begin.

1. If you don't actually have anything to back something up, no real conversation or facts besides the delusions cooked up by playing this game far too much, then yes, it is most likely WRONG! You can theorize that over the edge over the universe nothing exists but pink bunnies with carrots up their bum, just because we can't give hard evidence why it isn't there, and you can't give evidence why it is, doesn't mean it's true.

Your reasoning.. is backwards.

The backup has been gone over so many times that to regurgitate it here amongst closed and pathetic minds with ways set in stone would be a pointless endeavor. The only delusions regarded here whatsoever are your own attempts to preserve a canonical philosophy that is the furthest thing possible from canon: the R=U theory has wide-ranging support from both sides of the Final Fantasy community, player and creator. Your reference to pink bunnies with carrots up their bum only serves to exemplify your puerile lunacy and sick mentality. I highly recommend you take a basic logic class before you even start attacking someone's reasoning; my claim of truth is open to debate but it is ultimately just that: A claim. Your counter provides absolutely nothing of worth as far as disproving any of my words so why don't you run on home instead of meddling with something far beyond your head?

2. There is absolutely no data to back up R=U, that's why it's made fun of. If you want to wrap things up plot-wise with the image spinsels cooked up during your endless hours of triple triad, that's fine, but don't force it on other people.

There is an insane amount of data to backup the theory, but as stated previously, it has been dissected ad nausea, ad infinitum. Unlike pink bunnies with carrots up their bums, as you so eloquently evoke, the R=U theory makes more sense to the plot of the game than the game does without it. Anything else you'd like to add while your busy making idiotic proclamations? Maybe pink elephants this time? That's a little more common a speaking note to the schizophrenic, wouldn't you say?

3. How does it explain the villian in any way?

Ultimecia - wants to kill everything
Rinoa - doesnt want to kill everything.

The only thing we know about Ulti is that she wanted to be ruler of everything or kill everything or something like that, she is probably the least explained villian in the entire FF-series.

Re-read my explanation a few posts ago; obviously you are just like any other bigoted individual who has the FFVIII plot all mapped out in their heads and refuses to accept any other explanation. The only problem is that the R=U explanation completely obliterates your sad, poor grasp on the universe of FFVIII.

Ta-ta.

-Vost

[Vost]

Saying that Rinoa becomes Ultimecia in no way explains the final villain. In order to accept the theory, a huge number of assumptions must be made, none of which are giving any support by the game. First, you would have to explain how Rinoa lives to exist in Ultimecia's time, "many generations in the future", despite Square-Enix specifically saying sorceresses don't have extended lifespans. Second, you have to give a reason why Rinoa would abandon her peace-loving principles and decide to destroy the world. And that second assumption is actually a whole series of assumptions, as I'll demonstrate here.

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The fact that Square-Enix has reported that sorceresses have normal life-spans does not weaken the theory at all; Rinoa's survival is ensured by means of her prison so why are you even bringing this up again? I look forward to your demonstration below but unfortunately you have already commenced on weak ground: My original post, if you go ahead and read it, answers the so-called 'assumptions' you critique hear. Regarding them again shows that you really have no interest in discussing this theory but would rather safeguard your own delusional interpretation of what is and what is not possible or plausible in the game. Only one problem: Your ideas hold no water against the R=U theory. Let's begin dissecting your insanity...

I'll use the most common argument, that Squall's death coupled with the prejudice against sorceresses drove her bonkers. In that case, explain the following:

Why does Rinoa not simply die right after Squall does? Even assuming the powers of a sorceress could sustain her life, she knows that it would be simple to give them up and be at peace.

<meta :bou::bou::bou::bou::bou::bou::bou::bou::bou::bou:="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8"><meta name="ProgId" content="Word.Document"><meta name="Generator" content="Microsoft Word 11"><meta name="Originator" content="Microsoft Word 11"><link rel="File-List" href="file:///C:%5CDOCUME%7E1%5CADMINI%7E1%5CLOCALS%7E1%5CTemp%5Cmsohtml1%5C01%5Cclip_filelist.xml">:bou::bou::bou::bou::bou::bou::bou::bou::bou::bou:if gte mso 9]><xml> <w:WordDocument> <w:View>Normal</w:View> <w:Zoom>0</w:Zoom> <w:PunctuationKerning/> <w:ValidateAgainstSchemas/> <w:SaveIfXMLInvalid>false</w:SaveIfXMLInvalid> <w:IgnoreMixedContent>false</w:IgnoreMixedContent> <w:AlwaysShowPlaceholderText>false</w:AlwaysShowPlaceholderText> <w:Compatibility> <w:BreakWrappedTables/> <w:SnapToGridInCell/> <w:WrapTextWithPunct/> <w:UseAsianBreakRules/> <w:DontGrowAutofit/> </w:Compatibility> <w:BrowserLevel>MicrosoftInternetExplorer4</w:BrowserLevel> </w:WordDocument> </xml><![endif]-->:bou::bou::bou::bou::bou::bou::bou::bou::bou::bou:if gte mso 9]><xml> <w:LatentStyles DefLockedState="false" LatentStyleCount="156"> </w:LatentStyles> </xml><![endif]-->:bou::bou::bou::bou::bou::bou::bou:> </style>:bou::bou::bou::bou::bou::bou::bou::bou::bou::bou:if gte mso 10]> :bou::bou::bou::bou::bou::bou::bou:> /* Style Definitions */ table.MsoNormalTable {mso-style-name:"Table Normal"; mso-tstyle-rowband-size:0; mso-tstyle-colband-size:0; mso-style-noshow:yes; mso-style-parent:""; mso-padding-alt:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt; mso-para-margin:0in; mso-para-margin-bottom:.0001pt; mso-pagination:widow-orphan; font-size:10.0pt; font-family:"Times New Roman"; mso-ansi-language:#0400; mso-fareast-language:#0400; mso-bidi-language:#0400;} </style> <![endif]--> This is not even an argument...why would she die when Squall does? Is her life-force linked to the life-force of Squall's? Honestly, where do you even come up with this garbage? Your question is predicated on faulty logic. Where have I said that Squall's death drove anyone 'bonker's'? What the hell are you talking about? Did you not read what I wrote a few posts ago when I systematically explained the validity of the R=U theory?

Why does Rinoa not start attacking the world until many generations in the future? Squall certainly didn't live that long. Why hadn't she gone crazy much sooner?

Why would Rinoa, a well respected savior of the world, be persecuted and mistreated, especially when she is close friends with the most powerful nation on the planet and is married to the guy who runs Balamb Garden, a free floating city?

This is already explained. She is imprisoned out of prejudice for magic and witches in general before Ultimecia even comes into the picture; she is not the savior of the world at this point, or whatever the heck you're trying to say here. Since you did not read my original post, let me re-post it here for your reading pleasure:

There is a compelling argument in support of one aspect of the R=U theory that involves the explanation of Ultimecia's ostensible vehemence against the world and all in it. Unlike the time sequence presented as canon in the actual story progression of the game, Rinoa, once confined in holding to stem the influence of witches in the world, remains there for an extended period of time. Her aging process thus slowed or even completely halted, her rescue is thwarted by her closest friends and she spends many, many years cursing her abandonment, cursing her captive state. Slowly, she is corrupted by her feelings of desperation; her virtue is weakened and the magic within her begins to degrade her, eventually cementing a new psychology of ire so profound that she is no longer Rinoa but rather Ultimecia. Some time in the future, an event occurs that sets her free from her prison (an event that can be argued to be hinted upon in the game) and she begins to plot her revenge.

However, she does not merely wish to punish the world now as she exists in it, but to punish the world forever, especially the past where she believes she was betrayed by her confidantes and brutalized by those who hate magic and witches. She hatches the plan of time compression and sets events in motion that come to dominate the plot of Final Fantasy 8. So corrupted is she by her hatred that she sees nothing worth saving anymore, nothing worth an ounce of compassion, even if she was capable of such a thing. Her 'possession' of Rinoa is a recognition of her former self, even if only on a subconscious level, a self that she now despises and loathes when set in contrast to the powerful being she has become. Nothing is sacred anymore. The world will pay for the death of her liberty; they will pay for their betrayal.

But this time, because of her intervention in the past, things change. Squall and company do rescue Rinoa, before she is lost to time. But things are too late. Time compression has already begun and Ultimecia is invulnerable to the effects of past or future. Understanding her identity with Rinoa is key to the brilliance of the game: It presents an ultimate story of vindication, an ultimate story of love when Squall is reunited with Rinoa and he disavows any prejudice against her regarding her status as a witch. He declares he will stand by her regardless. This time, she is not betrayed. This time, injustice and fear break against the rock of true love.

Your argument about Rinoa being persecuted as 'savior of the world' is a non sequitor, which means that 'it does not follow,' just in case you did not know. It goes to show that you have preconceived notions regarding the R=U theory and did not even bother to read what I originally wrote in its defense. Why are you even arguing if you do not know the argument? Do you realize that in a court of law you would be utterly ridiculed as incompetent and possibly insane? Let's continue on to the rest of your garbage post:

Why would Rinoa forget her past life with Squall in her insanity, prompting her to attack him when he faces Ultimecia at the endgame?

Why would Rinoa forget who she was and attack herself at the endgame? After all, if she simply wanted to do away with herself, she could have passed on her powers and perish.

Why would Rinoa forget her previous journey, her battle against Time Compression, only to decide to initiate it herself?

Why would Rinoa choose to name herself after an enemy who she fought so hard against?

Why would Rinoa remember the name Ultimecia, when she apparently forgot everything connected to the name, such as the fact they were enemies, or that they had fought across time itself?

Why would Rinoa replace the white wings on her outfit with black ones? It may seem a silly or minor point, but since it was one of the major points that started the whole R=U idiocy in the first place, you should explain it. After all, even had she gone completely insane and decided to destroy the world, why would she reverse her outfit's color scheme (red/black instead of blue/white)? It's not as though she would say "ooh, I'm evil, let's go pick out an outfit that matches that".

All these questions have already been answered. Here, I will re-post my original post a SECOND time in hopes that you will perhaps read it and stop making an idiot out of yourself:

There is a compelling argument in support of one aspect of the R=U theory that involves the explanation of Ultimecia's ostensible vehemence against the world and all in it. Unlike the time sequence presented as canon in the actual story progression of the game, Rinoa, once confined in holding to stem the influence of witches in the world, remains there for an extended period of time. Her aging process thus slowed or even completely halted, her rescue is thwarted by her closest friends and she spends many, many years cursing her abandonment, cursing her captive state. Slowly, she is corrupted by her feelings of desperation; her virtue is weakened and the magic within her begins to degrade her, eventually cementing a new psychology of ire so profound that she is no longer Rinoa but rather Ultimecia. Some time in the future, an event occurs that sets her free from her prison (an event that can be argued to be hinted upon in the game) and she begins to plot her revenge.

However, she does not merely wish to punish the world now as she exists in it, but to punish the world forever, especially the past where she believes she was betrayed by her confidantes and brutalized by those who hate magic and witches. She hatches the plan of time compression and sets events in motion that come to dominate the plot of Final Fantasy 8. So corrupted is she by her hatred that she sees nothing worth saving anymore, nothing worth an ounce of compassion, even if she was capable of such a thing. Her 'possession' of Rinoa is a recognition of her former self, even if only on a subconscious level, a self that she now despises and loathes when set in contrast to the powerful being she has become. Nothing is sacred anymore. The world will pay for the death of her liberty; they will pay for their betrayal.

But this time, because of her intervention in the past, things change. Squall and company do rescue Rinoa, before she is lost to time. But things are too late. Time compression has already begun and Ultimecia is invulnerable to the effects of past or future. Understanding her identity with Rinoa is key to the brilliance of the game: It presents an ultimate story of vindication, an ultimate story of love when Squall is reunited with Rinoa and he disavows any prejudice against her regarding her status as a witch. He declares he will stand by her regardless. This time, she is not betrayed. This time, injustice and fear break against the rock of true love.

Any R=U theory is an incredibly long and fragile list of coincidences, none of which has any support in the game. And since each list in the chain builds off the other, the more assumptions you have to make (and there are far more than this), the weaker the argument gets.

Incorrect. The R=U theory is a few short paragraphs of simplicity. It wraps up all the loose ends of the game and fits in perfectly with the canonical plot already presented. I'm sorry to burst your bubble, but R=U is more or less TRUE, so the sooner you realize the weakness of your counter-arguments the sooner you'll stop criticizing the beauty of a great game.

No, there isn't.

Ummm...yes there is.

Her aging process thus slowed or even completely halted

Again, where is your evidence that this would happen?

This is straight from the game...maybe you should actually play the game before discussing this?

and she begins to plot her revenge.

Why would she plot revenge instead of choosing to enjoy her new freedom?

It's called vengeance, ever heard of it?

However, she does not merely wish to punish the world now as she exists in it,

Why not?

Because she has become consumed by wrath. All existence, not one existence, will suffer her. Hence Time Compression.

but to punish the world forever, especially the past where she believes she was betrayed by her confidantes and brutalized by those who hate magic and witches.

Your evidence of this betrayal and brutalization is..?

The evidence is in the prejudice against her kind that resulted in many, many years of imprisonment. Anti-magic and anti-sorceress sentiments are scattered throughout the game.

She hatches the plan of time compression

Even though Time Compression was the cause of all her pain.

Yes, it's a lovely fanfic, but unfortunately has absolutely nothing supporting it.

<meta :bou::bou::bou::bou::bou::bou::bou::bou::bou::bou:="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8"><meta name="ProgId" content="Word.Document"><meta name="Generator" content="Microsoft Word 11"><meta name="Originator" content="Microsoft Word 11"><link rel="File-List" href="file:///C:%5CDOCUME%7E1%5CADMINI%7E1%5CLOCALS%7E1%5CTemp%5Cmsohtml1%5C01%5Cclip_filelist.xml">:bou::bou::bou::bou::bou::bou::bou::bou::bou::bou:if gte mso 9]><xml> <w:WordDocument> <w:View>Normal</w:View> <w:Zoom>0</w:Zoom> <w:PunctuationKerning/> <w:ValidateAgainstSchemas/> <w:SaveIfXMLInvalid>false</w:SaveIfXMLInvalid> <w:IgnoreMixedContent>false</w:IgnoreMixedContent> <w:AlwaysShowPlaceholderText>false</w:AlwaysShowPlaceholderText> <w:Compatibility> <w:BreakWrappedTables/> <w:SnapToGridInCell/> <w:WrapTextWithPunct/> <w:UseAsianBreakRules/> <w:DontGrowAutofit/> </w:Compatibility> <w:BrowserLevel>MicrosoftInternetExplorer4</w:BrowserLevel> </w:WordDocument> </xml><![endif]-->:bou::bou::bou::bou::bou::bou::bou::bou::bou::bou:if gte mso 9]><xml> <w:LatentStyles DefLockedState="false" LatentStyleCount="156"> </w:LatentStyles> </xml><![endif]-->:bou::bou::bou::bou::bou::bou::bou:> </style>:bou::bou::bou::bou::bou::bou::bou::bou::bou::bou:if gte mso 10]> :bou::bou::bou::bou::bou::bou::bou:> /* Style Definitions */ table.MsoNormalTable {mso-style-name:"Table Normal"; mso-tstyle-rowband-size:0; mso-tstyle-colband-size:0; mso-style-noshow:yes; mso-style-parent:""; mso-padding-alt:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt; mso-para-margin:0in; mso-para-margin-bottom:.0001pt; mso-pagination:widow-orphan; font-size:10.0pt; font-family:"Times New Roman"; mso-ansi-language:#0400; mso-fareast-language:#0400; mso-bidi-language:#0400;} </style> <![endif]--> Lol, unfortunately for your side, it is much more than a fanfic. The ideas are well-supported and the conclusions fit in the time line and character of the game. Your arguments so far are nothing but a series of questions that I and others who defend the R=U theory have already answered.

Conclusion: R=U is likely or at least somewhat possible. Far from "highly unlikely." This should be changed since it perverts the game's beauty of subtle expression.

No, it isn't.

[/quote]

Yes, it is.

-Vost

[Vost]

I am sorry for getting your name wrong but seriously? 3 posts telling me I got it wrong? :roll2

The very nature of Time Compression does not necessarily mean that time is being altered, only that it is being compressed into one temporal singularity. Therefore, my theory can still hold next to the idea that the past cannot be changed. This is because it is no longer the 'past' or 'present' or 'future' per se, but rather ONE time. It is THIS one time that is changed, not the specific past or specific present or specific future that at one time was separate from it.

First: I stated an in-game reference that strongly implies that alternate time lines cannot exist in VIII, you are just assuming that their is alternate time lines and you've stated nothing in the game that suggests it otherwise. Even when Dr. Odine mentions how time compression works, he mentions it would only make the past, present, and future into a singularity that can be experienced all at once and life would be extinguished except for her. He does not mention anything about all possible histories. He describes it as a singular line. Squall goes back and plants the knowledge of SeeD into Edea's mind but even this alteration still works with what Ellone stated cause Cid said that SeeD was Edea's idea.

Even if Ultemacia was Rinoa from an alternate Time line, she would only be able to travel back to her own timeline cause the rules of time travel stated by Ellone says you can only send your consciousness back to places and times you have a connection with. She should not be able to travel back into an alternate time past nor should her interference cause Squall to change the past.

Ellone's connection to the past is Laguna; for Ultemacia, it was her power. She gave it to Edea at the end, and this allowed the future Ultemacia to possess her. She wasn't able to control Rinoa until Ultemacia made Edea pass on her powers to her. If Ultemacia was Rinoa, she wouldn't have needed to do this, especially since its shown that the powers of the time traveler comes with them; otherwise Laguna wouldn't be able to use Junction magic.

Ultemacia also constantly puts Rinoa's life in danger and by possessing her, runs the risk of erasing or dramatically altering her existence by doing so, if she was Rinoa. Not only is there no evidence to suggest Ultemacia has no memory of her life as Rinoa but it can also be thought that wiping out her self in the distant past would in turn cause a time paradox. Yet, Rinoa can be blinked out of existence in the final battle. This alone shows how little thought was put into the idea of Time Compression in the game (since it still technically presents the paradox of Ultemacia killing her past self, regardless if its Rinoa or not.), and also shows why the simplistic rules of time travel presented in the story doesn't need to be bogged down by fictional or scientific theory.

Your theory on Ultimecia's motivation is ridiculously weak. Mine ties the plot and explains her obsessions cogently. There is a lot of in game evidence to support this theory but I will not get into this here because it has already been mentioned in many other R=U posts.

Its not my theory, just the only one that vaguely made sense. I personally feel Ultemacia is just a 2-Dimensional villain made in the same vain as the Cloud of Darkness or Zeromus. A plot twist villain that reveals themselves at the end and reveals they have been controlling who we thought were the real villains. Your theory isn't any better imo, cause it completely hinges on assumptions and theories and I don't feel it ties anything up storywise.

It's funny how anytime the R=U theory is argued, opponents always use the phrase "Your theory has little to back it up I'm afraid,"
The theory has an infinity of data to back it up, I'm afraid, :). To boot, it explains the central villain most perfectly and wraps up everything that was not wrapped up. It is an implication done vaguely on purpose.

You presented no data, while I presented an in-game reference. How is this not "backing up my argument"? You presented no evidence just silly speculation and downright wishful thinking.

I also feel you should look at yourself in the mirror when you say comments like:

mostly because their own pathetic attempts to hold on to the version of the plot line that makes sense to them has no real or substantial arguments to eradicate the contrary.
- Vost (Void) ;)

Seeing as how you presented no evidence and just gave your own perspective of the ending as evidence, I would say you are guilty of your own words.

The fundamental flaw of R=U is that its such a major plot twist that there is no real reason to keep it hidden with cryptic clues to tell only the most ardent of players the truth. Looking at the series as a whole, FF plots have always been pretty up front and the plot elements never explained are either not important (Who is Gogo?) or badly written (Orphanage!).

A twist like that (R=U) would be more central to the story and even if it were true; I feel it doesn't mesh well cause it presents too many unknown variable. It doesn't explain anything, it just makes you ask more questions. It presents too many variable for plot holes and contradictions (like the ones I pointed out in this post). Its cryptic-ness and contradictory nature makes it logically impossible. Time Compression is also a terrible excuse used to explain things. I feel champaign supernova's post highlighted this as well.

You entirely miss the point: Ultimecia attacking Rinoa in Time Compression would have zero effect on Ultimecia herself since she the idea of a time shock wave traveling into the future and destroying her (Ultimecia) does not exist. There is no future in Time Compression- there is only on unified time that follows from no past and goes to no future. What is so difficult to understand about this? And this is by the way, an in-game reference so cut the crap here, lol.

You are vehemently attacking the theory without anything to really discredit it. The ideas behind R=U have support and make sense. Hence it is not 'highly unlikely' but rather 'somewhat likely.'

[Skyblade]

The next time your formatting tags are longer than your argument, I'm going to accept that as an indication that you realize you've lost and are just hoping you can get us to give up by making your posts annoying to quote.

Also, learn to use the "Edit" button. It's there for a reason.

Saying that Rinoa becomes Ultimecia in no way explains the final villain. In order to accept the theory, a huge number of assumptions must be made, none of which are giving any support by the game. First, you would have to explain how Rinoa lives to exist in Ultimecia's time, "many generations in the future", despite Square-Enix specifically saying sorceresses don't have extended lifespans. Second, you have to give a reason why Rinoa would abandon her peace-loving principles and decide to destroy the world. And that second assumption is actually a whole series of assumptions, as I'll demonstrate here.

Actually, it explains the final villain in every possible way imaginable and it does not require any unnecessary assumptions that are not already either warranted by the game's canon plot or completely plausible by the game's canon plot. It is already explained how Rinoa exists in Ultimecia's time period: Did you not read my original explanation a few posts ago? It quite clearly relates the phenomenon of time compression to the probability of both Rinoa and Ultimecia sharing one time. To even ask this question shows you know next to nothing about the subject, so why open yourself up to the devastating attack that I am about to unleash?

The fact that Square-Enix has reported that sorceresses have normal life-spans does not weaken the theory at all; Rinoa's survival is ensured by means of her prison so why are you even bringing this up again? I look forward to your demonstration below but unfortunately you have already commenced on weak ground: My original post, if you go ahead and read it, answers the so-called 'assumptions' you critique hear. Regarding them again shows that you really have no interest in discussing this theory but would rather safeguard your own delusional interpretation of what is and what is not possible or plausible in the game. Only one problem: Your ideas hold no water against the R=U theory. Let's begin dissecting your insanity...

And now show me what in-game piece of evidence indicates that the imprisonment extends the life of the sorceress. The only sorceress we have seen imprisoned in game was Adel, who was imprisoned for 17 years, well within an average human lifespan. Thus there is no support for the life-sustaining properties of the imprisonment, and your entire argument falls apart.

I'll use the most common argument, that Squall's death coupled with the prejudice against sorceresses drove her bonkers. In that case, explain the following:

Why does Rinoa not simply die right after Squall does? Even assuming the powers of a sorceress could sustain her life, she knows that it would be simple to give them up and be at peace.

This is not even an argument...why would she die when Squall does? Is her life-force linked to the life-force of Squall's? Honestly, where do you even come up with this garbage? Your question is predicated on faulty logic. Where have I said that Squall's death drove anyone 'bonker's'? What the hell are you talking about? Did you not read what I wrote a few posts ago when I systematically explained the validity of the R=U theory?

It's called suicide, genius. If she's so borken up with grief, why doesn't she just kill herself, especially since her normal lifespan is pretty much up anyway.

Why does Rinoa not start attacking the world until many generations in the future? Squall certainly didn't live that long. Why hadn't she gone crazy much sooner?

Why would Rinoa, a well respected savior of the world, be persecuted and mistreated, especially when she is close friends with the most powerful nation on the planet and is married to the guy who runs Balamb Garden, a free floating city?

This is already explained. She is imprisoned out of prejudice for magic and witches in general before Ultimecia even comes into the picture; she is not the savior of the world at this point, or whatever the heck you're trying to say here. Since you did not read my original post, let me re-post it here for your reading pleasure:

And your EVIDENCE for this imprisonment is where? We played the game. She isn't imprisoned until after Ultimecia possesses her, and even then it's only for about 5 seconds. You're making up an entire alternate timeline with NO EVIDENCE SUPPORTING IT.

Your argument about Rinoa being persecuted as 'savior of the world' is a non sequitor, which means that 'it does not follow,' just in case you did not know. It goes to show that you have preconceived notions regarding the R=U theory and did not even bother to read what I originally wrote in its defense. Why are you even arguing if you do not know the argument? Do you realize that in a court of law you would be utterly ridiculed as incompetent and possibly insane? Let's continue on to the rest of your garbage post:

I have preconceived notions that the events in the game took place in that game universe, yes. Surprising how that happens. When the game shows us her being imprisoned after the Ragnarok scene, I assume that is actually what happened, not that there is an entire alternate timeline Square wrote without even mentioning that is secretly responsible for absolutely everything in the plot. Sorry about that.

Why would Rinoa forget her past life with Squall in her insanity, prompting her to attack him when he faces Ultimecia at the endgame?

Why would Rinoa forget who she was and attack herself at the endgame? After all, if she simply wanted to do away with herself, she could have passed on her powers and perish.

Why would Rinoa forget her previous journey, her battle against Time Compression, only to decide to initiate it herself?

Why would Rinoa choose to name herself after an enemy who she fought so hard against?

Why would Rinoa remember the name Ultimecia, when she apparently forgot everything connected to the name, such as the fact they were enemies, or that they had fought across time itself?

Why would Rinoa replace the white wings on her outfit with black ones? It may seem a silly or minor point, but since it was one of the major points that started the whole R=U idiocy in the first place, you should explain it. After all, even had she gone completely insane and decided to destroy the world, why would she reverse her outfit's color scheme (red/black instead of blue/white)? It's not as though she would say "ooh, I'm evil, let's go pick out an outfit that matches that".

All these questions have already been answered. Here, I will re-post my original post a SECOND time in hopes that you will perhaps read it and stop making an idiot out of yourself:

Noooooooo, you posted a way things might have happened, but since your entire little tirade is occuring in a timeline that doesn't even exist in-game, there is no evidence for any of it. Saying that things might have occured one way does not force things to have occured that way. If everything went right, yes, your result might have happened. But if any one of the things that I mentioned did not go just the right way, your entire theory falls apart. You make an assumption that each one of those events happen. Your theory is built on it. You assume that she was imprisoned in your alternate timeline. You assume that she despaired because of this. You assume that that despair drives her crazy and makes her try to take over the world. BUT YOU HAVE NO EVIDENCE!

Oh, and BTW, posting your ideas over and over doesn't make them right either.

Any R=U theory is an incredibly long and fragile list of coincidences, none of which has any support in the game. And since each list in the chain builds off the other, the more assumptions you have to make (and there are far more than this), the weaker the argument gets.

Incorrect. The R=U theory is a few short paragraphs of simplicity. It wraps up all the loose ends of the game and fits in perfectly with the canonical plot already presented. I'm sorry to burst your bubble, but R=U is more or less TRUE, so the sooner you realize the weakness of your counter-arguments the sooner you'll stop criticizing the beauty of a great game.

It may be short to write out (R=U. See? Very short), but to hold consistency with the game's storyline, an incredible amount of assumptions must be made. At the end of the game, Rinoa is a happy girl living with the guy she loves. Any R=U theory must make assumptions about what would change that situation, how it would change it, why it would preserve her life until the future, why should would forget everything about her past, why should would choose the name of her former enemy, and why she would attempt to destroy everything. Your theory gives a list of possible ways that could occur, but there is no evidence supporting any of it.

Her aging process thus slowed or even completely halted

Again, where is your evidence that this would happen?

This is straight from the game...maybe you should actually play the game before discussing this?

Actually, it's not. Play the game, read the Ultimania, read the tutorial info. Absolutely nothing says that the sorceress seals preserve the sorceresses life.

and she begins to plot her revenge.

Why would she plot revenge instead of choosing to enjoy her new freedom?

It's called vengeance, ever heard of it?

You have yet to give any in-game evidence showing why she would choose vengeance though. Her personality is not exactly a very vengeful type, and since there are thousands of different choices that she could make upon be freed, why are you only saying that vengeance is the only choice she could make?

However, she does not merely wish to punish the world now as she exists in it,

Why not?

Because she has become consumed by wrath. All existence, not one existence, will suffer her. Hence Time Compression.

Again, your in-game evidence that her thinking turned this way is where?

but to punish the world forever, especially the past where she believes she was betrayed by her confidantes and brutalized by those who hate magic and witches.

Your evidence of this betrayal and brutalization is..?

The evidence is in the prejudice against her kind that resulted in many, many years of imprisonment. Anti-magic and anti-sorceress sentiments are scattered throughout the game.

Certainly. But the only thing close to "brutalization" is a 5 minute sequence where she is imprisoned (by her own free will) by Esthar, and even then she is treated with respect and dignity. When she is broken free, no one after that shows any prejudice towards her, and it is unlikely that the majority of the world even knows that she is a sorceress.

She hatches the plan of time compression

Even though Time Compression was the cause of all her pain.

Not sure why you quoted this but didn't try to answer it. Maybe you lost track of it in all those stupid tags. Maybe you don't have an answer. Or, maybe you just didn't mean to. I really have no clue, but it's still a valid point.

Yes, it's a lovely fanfic, but unfortunately has absolutely nothing supporting it.

Lol, unfortunately for your side, it is much more than a fanfic. The ideas are well-supported and the conclusions fit in the time line and character of the game. Your arguments so far are nothing but a series of questions that I and others who defend the R=U theory have already answered.

Absolutely nothing you have said fits in the time line. You said that she was persecuted and imprisoned before Ultimecia even shows up. We know that's not true from the in game timeline. You said that her friends fought to keep her locked up. We know that the in game timeline goes against that as well.

Conclusion: R=U is likely or at least somewhat possible. Far from "highly unlikely." This should be changed since it perverts the game's beauty of subtle expression.

No, it isn't.

Yes, it is.

-Vost

Sorry, you still have a bunch of assumptions, but no evidence.