Rinoa

[Vost]

The next time your formatting tags are longer than your argument, I'm going to accept that as an indication that you realize you've lost and are just hoping you can get us to give up by making your posts annoying to quote.

Actually, I've already won the argument: All I am doing here is humoring your ridiculous attempt at salvaging what little you have left of your reputation and your ideas. Also, increasing the font of your letters is not a very appropriate way to add length to your response. Overall, your notions are all stale and very poorly defended. May I suggest you take a class in logic so that you can meet the general level of intelligence that is required to communicate on these boards? Thanks.

Also, learn to use the "Edit" button. It's there for a reason.

I've used the edit button before many times; what evidence do you have that I do not know how to use it? Do you even have evidence that I have not used it? For someone who makes such a big deal about 'evidence' you really don't seem to grasp the concept that well when the shoe is on the other foot, do you? Another sign of mild retardation- I would suggest pills, psychotherapy, and more education. Thanks once again.

Saying that Rinoa becomes Ultimecia in no way explains the final villain. In order to accept the theory, a huge number of assumptions must be made, none of which are giving any support by the game. First, you would have to explain how Rinoa lives to exist in Ultimecia's time, "many generations in the future", despite Square-Enix specifically saying sorceresses don't have extended lifespans. Second, you have to give a reason why Rinoa would abandon her peace-loving principles and decide to destroy the world. And that second assumption is actually a whole series of assumptions, as I'll demonstrate here.

Actually, it explains the final villain in every possible way imaginable and it does not require any unnecessary assumptions that are not already either warranted by the game's canon plot or completely plausible by the game's canon plot. It is already explained how Rinoa exists in Ultimecia's time period: Did you not read my original explanation a few posts ago? It quite clearly relates the phenomenon of time compression to the probability of both Rinoa and Ultimecia sharing one time. To even ask this question shows you know next to nothing about the subject, so why open yourself up to the devastating attack that I am about to unleash?

The fact that Square-Enix has reported that sorceresses have normal life-spans does not weaken the theory at all; Rinoa's survival is ensured by means of her prison so why are you even bringing this up again? I look forward to your demonstration below but unfortunately you have already commenced on weak ground: My original post, if you go ahead and read it, answers the so-called 'assumptions' you critique hear. Regarding them again shows that you really have no interest in discussing this theory but would rather safeguard your own delusional interpretation of what is and what is not possible or plausible in the game. Only one problem: Your ideas hold no water against the R=U theory. Let's begin dissecting your insanity...

And now show me what in-game piece of evidence indicates that the imprisonment extends the life of the sorceress. The only sorceress we have seen imprisoned in game was Adel, who was imprisoned for 17 years, well within an average human lifespan. Thus there is no support for the life-sustaining properties of the imprisonment, and your entire argument falls apart.

That has already been presented in the game and I am not going to go through it again. If you would like to know the exact mechanics of the Sorceress Memorial, I suggest you actually play the game because it seems like you have never even done so in the first place, mmmkay? Good boy.

I'll use the most common argument, that Squall's death coupled with the prejudice against sorceresses drove her bonkers. In that case, explain the following:

Why does Rinoa not simply die right after Squall does? Even assuming the powers of a sorceress could sustain her life, she knows that it would be simple to give them up and be at peace.

This is not even an argument...why would she die when Squall does? Is her life-force linked to the life-force of Squall's? Honestly, where do you even come up with this garbage? Your question is predicated on faulty logic. Where have I said that Squall's death drove anyone 'bonker's'? What the hell are you talking about? Did you not read what I wrote a few posts ago when I systematically explained the validity of the R=U theory?

It's called suicide, genius. If she's so borken up with grief, why doesn't she just kill herself, especially since her normal lifespan is pretty much up anyway.

Why does Rinoa not start attacking the world until many generations in the future? Squall certainly didn't live that long. Why hadn't she gone crazy much sooner?

Why would Rinoa, a well respected savior of the world, be persecuted and mistreated, especially when she is close friends with the most powerful nation on the planet and is married to the guy who runs Balamb Garden, a free floating city?

This is already explained. She is imprisoned out of prejudice for magic and witches in general before Ultimecia even comes into the picture; she is not the savior of the world at this point, or whatever the heck you're trying to say here. Since you did not read my original post, let me re-post it here for your reading pleasure:

And your EVIDENCE for this imprisonment is where? We played the game. She isn't imprisoned until after Ultimecia possesses her, and even then it's only for about 5 seconds. You're making up an entire alternate timeline with NO EVIDENCE SUPPORTING IT.

Ultimecia alters the time line of Rinoa and Squall that would naturally progress if there were no interference form other times. The alternate time line is presented through both vague and clear points in the game and the evidence for it is what orignally brought the R=U theory into existence. THERE IS ON OVERWHELMING AMOUNT OF EVIDENCE TO SUPPORT IT.

I have preconceived notions that the events in the game took place in that game universe, yes. Surprising how that happens. When the game shows us her being imprisoned after the Ragnarok scene, I assume that is actually what happened, not that there is an entire alternate timeline Square wrote without even mentioning that is secretly responsible for absolutely everything in the plot. Sorry about that.

<link rel="File-List" href="file:///C:%5CDOCUME%7E1%5CADMINI%7E1%5CLOCALS%7E1%5CTemp%5Cmsohtml1%5C01%5Cclip_filelist.xml">:bou::bou::bou::bou::bou::bou::bou::bou::bou::bou:if gte mso 9]><xml> <w:WordDocument> <w:View>Normal</w:View> <w:Zoom>0</w:Zoom> <w:PunctuationKerning/> <w:ValidateAgainstSchemas/> <w:SaveIfXMLInvalid>false</w:SaveIfXMLInvalid> <w:IgnoreMixedContent>false</w:IgnoreMixedContent> <w:AlwaysShowPlaceholderText>false</w:AlwaysShowPlaceholderText> <w:Compatibility> <w:BreakWrappedTables/> <w:SnapToGridInCell/> <w:WrapTextWithPunct/> <w:UseAsianBreakRules/> <wontGrowAutofit/> </w:Compatibility> <w:BrowserLevel>MicrosoftInternetExplorer4</w:BrowserLevel> </w:WordDocument> </xml><![endif]-->:bou::bou::bou::bou::bou::bou::bou::bou::bou::bou:if gte mso 9]><xml> <w:LatentStyles DefLockedState="false" LatentStyleCount="156"> </w:LatentStyles> </xml><![endif]-->> </style>:bou::bou::bou::bou::bou::bou::bou::bou::bou::bou:if gte mso 10]> > /* Style Definitions */ table.MsoNormalTable {mso-style-name:"Table Normal"; mso-tstyle-rowband-size:0; mso-tstyle-colband-size:0; mso-style-noshow:yes; mso-style-parent:""; mso-padding-alt:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt; mso-para-margin:0in; mso-para-margin-bottom:.0001pt; mso-pagination:widow-orphan; font-size:10.0pt; font-family:"Times New Roman"; mso-ansi-language:#0400; mso-fareast-language:#0400; mso-bidi-language:#0400;} </style> <![endif]--> Thanks for apologizing; it is quite reasonable to expect someone who cannot grasp the complexity of the R=U argument to argue only superficial points, without ever realizing subtleties that are inherent or implied in them.

Why would Rinoa forget her past life with Squall in her insanity, prompting her to attack him when he faces Ultimecia at the endgame?

Why would Rinoa forget who she was and attack herself at the endgame? After all, if she simply wanted to do away with herself, she could have passed on her powers and perish.

Why would Rinoa forget her previous journey, her battle against Time Compression, only to decide to initiate it herself?

Why would Rinoa choose to name herself after an enemy who she fought so hard against?

Why would Rinoa remember the name Ultimecia, when she apparently forgot everything connected to the name, such as the fact they were enemies, or that they had fought across time itself?

Why would Rinoa replace the white wings on her outfit with black ones? It may seem a silly or minor point, but since it was one of the major points that started the whole R=U idiocy in the first place, you should explain it. After all, even had she gone completely insane and decided to destroy the world, why would she reverse her outfit's color scheme (red/black instead of blue/white)? It's not as though she would say "ooh, I'm evil, let's go pick out an outfit that matches that".

Noooooooo, you posted a way things might have happened, but since your entire little tirade is occuring in a timeline that doesn't even exist in-game, there is no evidence for any of it. Saying that things might have occured one way does not force things to have occured that way. If everything went right, yes, your result might have happened. But if any one of the things that I mentioned did not go just the right way, your entire theory falls apart. You make an assumption that each one of those events happen. Your theory is built on it. You assume that she was imprisoned in your alternate timeline. You assume that she despaired because of this. You assume that that despair drives her crazy and makes her try to take over the world. BUT YOU HAVE NO EVIDENCE!

Nooooooo, if everything is as I have presented, it is not a question of whether it 'might' happen or not, it is a question of why stubborn people such as yourself do not see what is plainly evident. None of the objections you bring up are valid because they have all been explained perfectly by the R=U theory, with an OVERWHELMING AMOUNT OF EVIDENCE IN THE GAME. Go read all of the posts regarding R=U and maybe you can come back and actually argue reasonably as opposed to saying 'Blah blah blah I don't see it.'

No assumptions were ever made: every presentation is a reasonable conclusion based on the evidence and plot of the game. Hence, you ASSUME that I ASSUME, making your own accusation turn back upon yourself.

Oh, and BTW, posting your ideas over and over doesn't make them right either.

Any R=U theory is an incredibly long and fragile list of coincidences, none of which has any support in the game. And since each list in the chain builds off the other, the more assumptions you have to make (and there are far more than this), the weaker the argument gets.

Incorrect. The R=U theory is a few short paragraphs of simplicity. It wraps up all the loose ends of the game and fits in perfectly with the canonical plot already presented. I'm sorry to burst your bubble, but R=U is more or less TRUE, so the sooner you realize the weakness of your counter-arguments the sooner you'll stop criticizing the beauty of a great game.

It may be short to write out (R=U. See? Very short), but to hold consistency with the game's storyline, an incredible amount of assumptions must be made. At the end of the game, Rinoa is a happy girl living with the guy she loves. Any R=U theory must make assumptions about what would change that situation, how it would change it, why it would preserve her life until the future, why should would forget everything about her past, why should would choose the name of her former enemy, and why she would attempt to destroy everything. Your theory gives a list of possible ways that could occur, but there is no evidence supporting any of it.

At the end of the game, she does not become Ultimecia because the events have changed BECAUSE of Ultimecia's interference; you simply are not acknowledging the effect of time compression which is very clearly evidenced in the game itself. Hey, do you know what else is short? The word cat, or the word fox, or the word Joe. Try spelling those out and having fun with them since you seem to like short things...

Her aging process thus slowed or even completely halted

Again, where is your evidence that this would happen?

This is straight from the game...maybe you should actually play the game before discussing this?

Actually, it's not. Play the game, read the Ultimania, read the tutorial info. Absolutely nothing says that the sorceress seals preserve the sorceresses life.

Actually, it is. Once again, I recommend you play the game yourself and see how this statement is true. Go on...I'm not going anywhere. I'll check back on you as soon as you're ready.

and she begins to plot her revenge.

Why would she plot revenge instead of choosing to enjoy her new freedom?

It's called vengeance, ever heard of it?

You have yet to give any in-game evidence showing why she would choose vengeance though. Her personality is not exactly a very vengeful type, and since there are thousands of different choices that she could make upon be freed, why are you only saying that vengeance is the only choice she could make?

Why would she choose vengeance? You obviously have no conception of the world; how old are you, 12? Reasonable conclusions from implied or inherent points taken directly from the game's plot stand, regardless of the absence of direct presentation. It is never directly stated that Laguna is Squall's father yet the presentation is there. It is of a similar nature to the R=U theory, except that R=U is deeper and purposely obscured in the plot.

However, she does not merely wish to punish the world now as she exists in it,

Why not?

Once again, I am not about to teach you about the world; go ask your parents if you want to learn about the birds and the bees.

but to punish the world forever, especially the past where she believes she was betrayed by her confidantes and brutalized by those who hate magic and witches.

Your evidence of this betrayal and brutalization is..?

I've already covered this in the reasonable implication clause of my former posts. Also, if you're going to use an ellipsis to appear clever since your arguments are obviously garbage, at least use it correctly: it is 3 dots...not 2...not 1.

She hatches the plan of time compression

Even though Time Compression was the cause of all her pain.

Not sure why you quoted this but didn't try to answer it. Maybe you lost track of it in all those stupid tags. Maybe you don't have an answer. Or, maybe you just didn't mean to. I really have no clue, but it's still a valid point.

Stupid tags? Lol...you're a funny kid. So when your counter-arguments are failing you start criticizing the methodology of your opponent's post? My tags are just fine- the only problem you should worry about is making your arguments cogent as opposed to someone who is appearing to put up one really valid point and i'm impressed by your thinking. after another.

Yes, it's a lovely fanfic, but unfortunately has absolutely nothing supporting it.

Lol, unfortunately for your side, it is much more than a fanfic. The ideas are well-supported and the conclusions fit in the time line and character of the game. Your arguments so far are nothing but a series of questions that I and others who defend the R=U theory have already answered.

Absolutely nothing you have said fits in the time line. You said that she was persecuted and imprisoned before Ultimecia even shows up. We know that's not true from the in game timeline. You said that her friends fought to keep her locked up. We know that the in game timeline goes against that as well.

Actually, absolutely everything I have said fits in the time line. What's more is that the R=U theory collects the scattered in game evidence and presents a persuasive explanation to Ultimecia and her relation to the time of Squall and Rinoa.

Sorry, you still have a bunch of assumptions, but no evidence.

Uh, no I do not but you can keep telling yourself that if it makes you feel better, lol.

-Vost

P.S. I look forward to your response. I'll put in as many tags as I can next time- I see how much you love them.

I'm sorry, um, triple squares, but I dont understand that writing, so that's not proof to me.

Sir Bahamut and others have gone to great lengths intelligently documenting postulated evidence that R=U is just not probable.

Sir Bahamut's arguments have been invalidated, partially by me. Ultimecia being Rinoa is not only possible and plausible but greatly probable.

-Vost

[Shlup]

I can't decide whether to lol or ;_;.

[The Man]

When in doubt, facepalm.

[Wolf Kanno]

I would be crying...

******************************************

Vost, reading your post I've come to two theories of my own concerning you:

A: Your a person who hates the R=U theory and the people who promote it and purposely made some secondary account to show how silly these people are

B: You don't read posts and choose not to answer direct questions for some silly reason. Maybe cause you can't accept the fact you may be wrong and instead prefer to belittle people for disagreeing with you instead of backing up your statements in fear of being proven wrong.

You go on and on about evidence but present none. That is not debating, that is sticking your fingers in your ears and humming to yourself so reality can't come in. Grow up and take this seriously or STFU.

You state your theory over and over but when we present in-game evidence that makes not only alternate time lines impossible but shows that Ultemacia meddling in the past alters Rinoa's future is impossible because THE GAME STATES ITS IMPOSSIBLE TO CHANGE THE COURSE OF HISTORY. You ignore this and go on how perfect the theory is. I've read at least a dozen different theories about R=U yours is just a variation of three other I've read and they were all proven wrong as well. SE has never gone on record to state the truth and the smurfing Ultimania doesn't state anything concerning it but lays out the rest of the plot.

As for Time Compression making Ultemacia immune to killing her past self, its never stated if it could or not but that's because time compression is detailed in a rather short paragraph by Dr. Odine. The Tutorial/Information guide simply states:

"A complete mystery. Various states of past, present and
future mixed together".

This is why I generally hate Mcguffins cause crackpots can use it as an excuse to explain all the logical inconsistencies in there theories without presenting any evidence. Which is basically what you are doing by ignoring elements in the plot to support your own theory cause you
can't fathom that Ultemacia is Two dimensional villain and VIII's plot ispoorly written cause it allows for such theories to exist in the first placewithout any clear evidence showing it can be one way or another.

Ellone states twice that it is impossible to change the past. That history cannot be changed by any meddling. Even the two things that happen in the past (Squall giving Edea the idea about SeeD and Ultemacia giving Edea her powers) do not conflict at all with something stated TWICE in the game. Which proves that alternate time lines are impossible, especially since the very idea of Compressing time should logically mean that time has a finite value and is set in stone. Not the single time line and all the possibilities that may or may not have happened. VIII is very clear about the belief of Fate and that history is irreversible. Besides, there is no scene,
dialogue or even a written scrap of info that even suggests anything in your theory is capable of happening since it constantly conflicts with other facts stated in the game and has to utilize the McGuffin (Time Compression)to explain how it works without any real evidence.

So I ask you to either back down or finally show this evidence that is so overwhelming that its beneath you to have to explain. As far as I'm concerned, your just running from the truth.

[NeoTifa]

This topic again?! *facepalm*

[Rantz]

I love this thread.

[Jiro]

People can argue all they like, but there's not enough evidence to completely prove or disprove the theory. In all likelihood, Square put in some inconsistencies like the coloured wings just to make this happen.
At least try and argue respectfully guys

[blackmage_nuke]

Heres a crazy idea for a motive for R=U.

IF Rinoa somehow found a way to live generations into the future and there was no Ultimacia maybe she comes to realise that there is no Ultimacia, and she will then realise that it was because of Ultimacia that Squall and Rinoa were brought together. If there was no Ultimacia then they may never have fallen in love and thus she becomes Ultimacia to complete the cycle. She never really intends to compress time, its all an act. And being hundreds of years old she may have accepted it was time for her to die.

That being said I DONT BELIEVE R=U

But im probably not the right person to pick up subtle hints, it took me 2 play throughs to figure out that General Caraway and President Deling were two different people. (It confused me as to why Rinoa tried to kidnap her own father)
edit: and i just realised why they called it LUNAtic pandora 2 minutes ago.

[demondude]

I think somebody is getting a tad cranky over a video game.

[Skyblade]

edit: and i just realised why they called it LUNAtic pandora 2 minutes ago.

That's actually the origin of the word "lunatic".

See also: lunatic

[Wolf Kanno]

I love this thread.

We aim to please

[champagne supernova]

Writing in a fancy prose style does not make an argument valid, nor does ridiculing (without much basis) someone who attempts to disprove it. You are also yet to deal with my disproof of your theory. Fair enough, it was quite tedious, but I will restate it here in a more simplistic, and hopefully clearer manner.

So, firstly I will assume that alternative timelines do exist and can interact with one another (i.e one can move between different timelines). As you will see, I will show that this assumption cannot hold.

So, by your theory, whenever something happens which does not happen in the game, an alternative timeline is opened up. But of course, timelines are not like trees - they cannot branch from a single point. Therefore, every time a new timeline opens, it basically is identifcal to the point where the change occurs, and from then starts to alter. Of course, every minor change creates a whole new timeline (from some immensely important decision, to an ant going in another direction). Therefore there are basically an infinite number of alternate timelines.

So, there is one timeline that brings us to the earliest point of time that the game shows - Edea's house when Squall & Ultimecia arrive from the future. From there onwards, there are new timelines opening up everywhere as different decisions are made in the world.

One timeline (or a subset of timelines where the decisions made make almost no difference in the world - like the any example earlier) leads us through the game's story. Another subset are the one's that Vost uses in his theory, where Rinoa gets angry and compresses time, etc etc.

In Vost's alternative timeline, Rinoa compresses time, and as Vost writes in his theory, compresses all the alternative timelines together - therefore allowing Squall from one timeline to go to defeat Rinoa/Ultimecia in another. Then they have their big battle (so much fun) and Squall then gets lost in time and arrives at the orphanage - at the earliest timeframe in the game.

But, and here is where it gets tricky, Squall could end up in many timelines which aren't his. As I mentioned earlier, every time a decision is made, an alternative timeline is created, which is identical to the original up to that point. So all the timelines which are created due to differences that occur after that scene in that game are identical until that point. So, Squall went and looked for a point in his mind - but there are an infinite number of timelines that have that exact same point.

Therefore, the probability of him landing up in the right timeline (or right subset of timelines) is not 100%, because the game timelines are a subset of all the alternative timelines - and therefore are smaller in number. The likelihood, due to the number of timelines being created, is very slim.

If Squall does not land up in the right timeline, he will then tell Edea his bit about SeeD and Garden, and it won't land up anywhere - because he's not in the right timeline. Meanwhile, in the original timeline, everything will start falling apart, because without Squall telling Edea about SeeD and Garden, none of it will have been started, and therefore none of the game would have actually happened.

Then, if we follow the game, Squall then returns to his right time, and everything is the way it should be. This implies that he landed in the right timeline. But, if the timelines were interacting with each other, this would be highly unlike. Actually, mathematically it would be completely unlike, because it is a cyclical loop which goes on infinitely. And (0<p<1) to the power of infinity (which is the probability of him landing in the right timeline ever single time) is 0, or a 0% chance. Therefore, the only way what happened could have happened is if the timelines do not interact at all, ever.

So, with the help of some maths and statistical techniques, one has to refute the assumption that alternative timelines can be moved between. With this assumption refuted, the rest of Vost's theory cannot hold, because the so-called Evil Rinoa/Ultimecia of an alternative timeline cannot have any influence over the game's story.

So, one can argue from a logical point of view the other parts of Vost's theory, but this is a solid mathematical refutation of a core premise of the theory. So, I think that this R=U theory cannot hold.

If there is any element of this mathematical argument that is unclear, let me know. I know it is very tedious and mechanical, but it does all follow. I could probably put it into mathematical notation, although it would then be unreadable to anyone without some serious mathematical background.

[NeoTifa]

This thread sucks. Why don't you just accept the fact the Ultimecia is actually Jenova and stfu? :P

[blackmage_nuke]

Lavos is Jenova!

[Ultima Shadow]

You're all wrong, this is what happened: