Rinoa

[Sir Bahamut]

I can't decide whether to lol or ;_;.

I gotta admit I ended up lolling.

---

[Wolf Kanno]

Its obvious that we are all wrong and the truth is that Ultimecia is Squall. I will now present the S=U theory.

Ultimecia is actually Squall in the future who forever punishes himself due to his lack of strength and in ability to protect anyone. Ultimecia's true goal is not Time Compression as much as its to keep "himself" in an eternal time loop.

The proof is that Ultimecia never directly tries to kill Squall when hshe had the chance on several occasions when he possessed Edea and Rinoa. Ultemacia also chooses to create Griever from Squall's mind and use its power, Ultimecia being actually Squall would also believe that Griever is the Ultimate GF and thus creates him to crush Squall's hope since Ultemacia knows how to screw with his head.

The wings Ultimecia uses are also a refernce to each of the witches that Squall faces, he wears two wings on the back to represent Rinoa, their gnarled and long wingspan represents the similarities to Adel's and the black feathers are from the feathers adorned on Edea's dress. Thus his design is an inspiration from the wing symbolism common in all the witches in the game.

Ultimecia's final lines in her/his ultimate form are also evidence.

Reflect on your...
Childhood...
Your sensations...
Your words...
Your emnotions...
Time...
it will not wait...
no matter...
...how hard you hold on...
It escapes you...

In my theory its obvious that this line is directed at Squall as a last ditch effort to try and make Squall into Ultemacia eventually and continue the time loop of punishment that he created for himself. He asks himself to reflect upon his childhood where he was abonadoned by his father and "big sister" and lost his mother. A childhood that fuels Squall's anti-social behaviour and self loathing. The very elements that personify Ultemacia her/himslef.

How does Squall become a Sorceror/Sorceress?

The ending sequence of the game in which Squall visits his past self and gives Edea the idea of SeeD shows through her dialogue that any of the children could accept the power. Squall gained his power from Rinoa in an alternate timeline in which he doesn't save her. This is presented in the sequence of the ending's dream in which Rinoa's suit breaks in outer space. This is not an illusion caused by Time Compression but rather Squall reliving the memory of the alternate timeline in which he doesn't save her. This leads to his emotional breakdown at the end cause he finally realizes the truth that he is the cause of everyone's misery. Its only When Rinoa saves him that he is able to finally forgive himself.


How did Squall get into the future?
Obviously, Squall was sealed away perhaps by his own will in the cryo freezer Esthar created. In the games Timeline (we'll call it T2 since its the secondary timeline and T1 will be the alternate timeline), Rinoa is sealed away but Squall is the only one who comes and rescues her, which leads us to believe that the others would not be so inclined to save Squall of whom the party has a much rockier relationship with than Rinoa. This is how Squall is able to make it to the future, and beat the "human lifespan' issue of the Ultimania.

Why does he seek to destroy the past?
His frozen slumber is not enough to punish him and eventually Squall falls into depression and madness over the guilt of not saving Rinoa. He instead chooses to punish himslef, to do this he must utilize Time compression to keep an eternal time loop. Time travel is normally impossible but through Time compression, Ultemacia can skip through the "folded"pockets of time and directly affect things. Ultemacia, creates the scenario to lead up to Squall's eventually failure and eventual acquisition of power. He possesses Edea and starts the Galbadia conflict, eventually possessing Rinoa to keep his future self from harm and to place Rinoa in mortal danger that will lead to her death and Squall gaining her powers. After Squall is frozen, Ultemacia possesses Ellone and starts Time Compression which allows Ultemacia to travel back in time and tell Edea about SeeDs. This is why Ultemacia appears at the same place as Squall in the ending cause its the place Ultemacia has to directly affect except in the ending time has been altered.

Why not directly control Squall or Ellone?
Due to the butterfly effect, Ultimecia must be careful not to enter his own body. Though he may have lived the life, memory is a funny a thing. In order to keep his own existence as Ultimecia a reality, he cannot take the chance to alter Squall's feeling more than he should. Thus Ultimecia only indirectly affect Squall by putting pressure on him and placing Rinoa and the others in danger. Ultimecia already knows how Squall will react regardless of the situation and as long as it fuels his anger and inadequecy then Ultemacia's existene is safe to continually punish himself.

Ellone is more for the Time Compression itself and he does eventually possess her but only after reaching the events in which S becomes U.

Why a woman?
Partially to hide his identity, but looking at Squall's past and general psychology, its obvious he has the traits of a man who has Image dissociation. He hates woman yet idolizes them. In the dialogue, he is generally meaner to Rinoa, Quistis, and Selphie. More so than other woman in the game. He only seems to idolize his "big sister". From his past, we see he has abandonement issues concerning women and that they always seemed more powerful to him. The few sorceress' he met are strong willed women. Even Quistis and Rinoa prove to be rather bossy types that force him to go along and with Squall's desire to be strong, does it not seem obvious he would choose a woman to be the ultimate form of power when becomes omnipotent.

Through the poers shown of changing Edea's appearance to bringing thought to life, its obvious that its not impossible for Squall to change his appearance. Though it must be noted that Ultimecia reatins the feathered ruffles from his bomber jacket on his dress in her alternate form. He changed the color from white to black in order to signify his fall from grace.

Why does time change in the course of the game?
This is partially due to the butterfly effect. Squall obviously cannot control every factor and obviously screwing with the space/time continuum would result in minor factors changing that eventually lead to Squall finally succeeding in rescuing Rinoa in space. This completely alters events and forces Ultimecia to go ahead with Time Compression to stop the party. This is very important as its the only way to save his current state before the time backlash he created changes the future. His final moments battling himself are spent not only intimidating himslef and destroying his self confidence but also to try and bring forth the elements that will lead Squall onto the road of becoming Ultimecia. This is reflected in Ultimecia's final words. Even though he's killed, Squall still goes along with his noraml plan and uses Time Compression to visit Edea in the past except it also launches the past Squall to the same moment. The past Squall tells Edea about SeeD but his future self in its dead and limited capacity is only able to transfer his powers to Edea instead of his past self.

[demondude]

Squall is a homosexual with a furry hood.

[Mirage]

These fanfics are awesome!!

[NeoTifa]

I hate you. *steals Squall*

[Wolf Kanno]

I just found it funny that by taking scenes out of context and placing other ideas of time travel into the story, it was rather easy to twist the plot and show it can also make Squall into Ulty. Kinda like another theory...

In fact, using circumstantial, evidence I felt S=U is more probable than R=U cause Squall wouldn't need to fall far from becoming Ulty personality wise while Rinoa requires a tremendous amount of off screen shenanigans to make her go crazy in the theory. Course, both theories have the same fundamental flaws in logic.

[Serapy]

There is a compelling argument in support of one aspect of the R=U theory that involves the explanation of Ultimecia's ostensible vehemence against the world and all in it. Unlike the time sequence presented as canon in the actual story progression of the game, Rinoa, once confined in holding to stem the influence of witches in the world, remains there for an extended period of time. Her aging process thus slowed or even completely halted, her rescue is thwarted by her closest friends and she spends many, many years cursing her abandonment, cursing her captive state. Slowly, she is corrupted by her feelings of desperation; her virtue is weakened and the magic within her begins to degrade her, eventually cementing a new psychology of ire so profound that she is no longer Rinoa but rather Ultimecia. Some time in the future, an event occurs that sets her free from her prison (an event that can be argued to be hinted upon in the game) and she begins to plot her revenge.

However, she does not merely wish to punish the world now as she exists in it, but to punish the world forever, especially the past where she believes she was betrayed by her confidantes and brutalized by those who hate magic and witches. She hatches the plan of time compression and sets events in motion that come to dominate the plot of Final Fantasy 8. So corrupted is she by her hatred that she sees nothing worth saving anymore, nothing worth an ounce of compassion, even if she was capable of such a thing. Her 'possession' of Rinoa is a recognition of her former self, even if only on a subconscious level, a self that she now despises and loathes when set in contrast to the powerful being she has become. Nothing is sacred anymore. The world will pay for the death of her liberty; they will pay for their betrayal.

But this time, because of her intervention in the past, things change. Squall and company do rescue Rinoa, before she is lost to time. But things are too late. Time compression has already begun and Ultimecia is invulnerable to the effects of past or future. Understanding her identity with Rinoa is key to the brilliance of the game: It presents an ultimate story of vindication, an ultimate story of love when Squall is reunited with Rinoa and he disavows any prejudice against her regarding her status as a witch. He declares he will stand by her regardless. This time, she is not betrayed. This time, injustice and fear break against the rock of true love.

There are many things that I did not mention as far as practical possibility of the R=U theory goes. The above argument however addresses one of the central critiques in the theory. The R=U theory is that much stronger because it supplies a very clear and crisp motivation for Ultimecia's actions, as opposed to her just being a plot device.

Conclusion: R=U is likely or at least somewhat possible. Far from "highly unlikely." This should be changed since it perverts the game's beauty of subtle expression.

-Vost

I absolutely agree. The "highly unlikely." text should be permanently removed from the relevant list in the FAQ thread. Why? The intention of the text obviously holds one particularly element; encouraging certain individuals to disbelieve the R=U theory. Or at least trying to correct their uncertainty about it.

One person telling the others that the whole theory is highly unlikely is an indirect way. The direct version of that text would be saying that the whole theory is actually not true. Under such circumstances, this act voids the purpose of one certain thing; using your interpretations to enjoy the game. This is one of the fundamental elements in the whole Final Fantasy universe. Just because you think something must not be right (R=U), it does not mean you have the right to tell the others that the theory is wrong.

My post only applies to situations that certain elements of a story not providing pure or strong evidence.

To certain individuals who were throwing "gimme evidence", "your theory doesn't provide evidence", "not enough" texts. You have to realise that the R!=U theory did not provide pure or strong evidence either. I have read the Japanese book and it still is not enough. The book only provides very general information about the game, it doesn't provide strong information about in-game individuals.

The R=U and R!=U sides both have thier faults, and you have the very right to believe whatever you want. Let's leave it at that. But I still request one of the staff members to remove the "highly unlikely" text from the FAQ thread.

[qwertysaur]

Alright, here is what my interpretation about the original post. When using Ellone's ability to send ones mind into the past, and by extension the device that Ultimecia uses, one takes the body of the person in the past as their own during that time. So during the course of the game, we can have
S=L
Z=W
S=K
U=E
U=R
ect.

They are not saying that one person is the other. One person acts through the other is the only relationship. So for example when fighting against Edea in disks 1 and 2, while the actuall body is that of Edea, but the mind is always Ultimecia. So one can think of Edea as being Ultimecia during that time.

[champagne supernova]

Serapy, Vost's theory doesn't hold. I disproved it with the use of mathematics and statistics. As much as you can argue on factual arguments and still get very likely or very unlikely conclusions from them, you cannot argue against maths. It holds - always. So, you cannot use Vost's argument as an example about why R=U, because it is fundamentally flawed.

And the flaw is inherent in all R=U arguments. Rinoa cannot exist in Ultimecia's time. The argument had its merits, until Square-Enix explicitly stated that sorceress' have normal human life spans. That is a fundamental flaw, and Vost's argument to try negate this flaw is itself fundamentally flawed.

So, when an idea is shown to be fundamentally flawed, it is very lucky to have it written down as very unlikely in the FAQ.

[Roogle]

I am certain that the Rinoa and Ultimecia theory has reached the scenario writers and developers for Final Fantasy VIII. If their intent was to make this obscure theory a fact in canon, they would have utilized Dissidia Final Fantasy to at least tease or entice the fanbase to rethink this theory, right?

[Wolf Kanno]

Dissidia actually explains Ultimecia's motive a bit better since we get to hear her talk about it but long time supporters will be annoyed that she's like any other villain.

(SPOILER)She only wants to do Time Compression to become a god and be worshiped forever. There is no dialogue concerning her true identity being someone we know. She's just a crazy sorceress from the future who is obsessed with Time and world domination. She spends more time trying to conspire against her fellow members of Chaos (mostly CoD, Kefka, Kuja, and eventually Sephiroth) cause their goals to annihilate everything kinda screws up their plans for eternal power and glory.

The only thing R=U conspiracy theorist have is that Ulty's special weapons just happen to be named after Rinoa's equipment since every villains special equipment is named after items from their own games regardless if they exist or actually used them.

So no, the game actually doesn't hint really to anything except something blatantly obscure (as usual) that fans of the theory will take out of context for the sake of their argument.

[Serapy]

Serapy, Vost's theory doesn't hold. I disproved it with the use of mathematics and statistics.

No, on paper, you did not disprove his theory at all. You need real and strong-suggestive evidence to do so. The reason why you have claimed that his theory is incorrect is because you have interpreted relevant things the different way. Like what Squall said, people fight with each other because they have different views; this is exactly what happening in this thread.

By the way, most things in the Final Fantasy universe are quite different compared to our very reality; such as the way how mathematics and physics are used in between FF8 and our reality and so on.

Why don't you prove that Rinoa is indeed not Ultimecia? On paper, you will get the same answer, regardless of whether or not you may think that R!=U sounds better.

Like what I have said before, R=U and R!=U cannot be proved or disproved 100%. SquareSoft has done that part. There are countless of things that have to be considered as well, for example: SquareSoft obviously knows about the R=U theory, so if it's wrong, then why didn't they clarify so? So this theory is intended to happen because FF8 is not a straightforward game. I have said it so many times now ...

As much as you can argue on factual arguments and still get very likely or very unlikely conclusions from them, you cannot argue against maths. It holds - always. So, you cannot use Vost's argument as an example about why R=U, because it is fundamentally flawed.

Oh-- Actually, in simple Maths; you do need evidence to make the result mathematically correct. Your post came from your speculation, that's pretty much it. As far as things goes, speculations don't work that well in Maths because they are so random. In this case, there's no evidence to fully disprove or prove R=U and R!=U. It's all open to interpretation.

And the flaw is inherent in all R=U arguments. Rinoa cannot exist in Ultimecia's time. The argument had its merits, until Square-Enix explicitly stated that sorceress' have normal human life spans. That is a fundamental flaw, and Vost's argument to try negate this flaw is itself fundamentally flawed.

No. There's nothing in thier statement that is aimed at Rinoa or even Ultimecia. Still not enough, and you know that there are additional methods to get into the certain timeline.

So, when an idea is shown to be fundamentally flawed, it is very lucky to have it written down as very unlikely in the FAQ.

Actually, R!=U has its faults as well. So, in that simple logic, declaring R=U as 'highly unlikely' with no mention of R!=U is more like flawed.

[Wolf Kanno]

[champagne supernova]

Serapy, Vost's theory doesn't hold. I disproved it with the use of mathematics and statistics.

No, on paper, you did not disprove his theory at all. You need real and strong-suggestive evidence to do so. The reason why you have claimed that his theory is incorrect is because you have interpreted relevant things the different way. Like what Squall said, people fight with each other because they have different views; this is exactly what happening in this thread.

By the way, most things in the Final Fantasy universe are quite different compared to our very reality; such as the way how mathematics and physics are used in between FF8 and our reality and so on.

Um, how exactly is the mathematical system different to the normal mathematical system? As far as I recall, 2 follows 1, and 3 follows 2, etc etc. And 2 > 1, therefore there is ordinality. Hence, if I drew 7 Ultima, and then the next time, I drew 5 Ultimas, I drew 2 less Ultimas. The first time meant I could cast it 7 times, the second 5, and the difference was -2. All of these numbers have a significant meaning. Therefore, there is a cardinal number system. The moment you have a cardinal number system, most (if not all) mathematical laws hold (like addition, subtraction, multiplication, logs, antilogs, calculus).

So, mathematics is definitely very close, if not identical to our mathematics.

Why don't you prove that Rinoa is indeed not Ultimecia? On paper, you will get the same answer, regardless of whether or not you may think that R!=U sounds better.

Okay. A sorceress has a normal human lifespan. Rinoa is a sorceress. Therefore, Rinoa has a normal lifespan. The maximum of a normal lifespan is realistically 100. Therefore Rinoa's life constraint is:
X+Y <= 100 (where X is how long she has lived, and Y is the amount of years she will live in the future).
X = 17 (read the game manual).
Therefore Y <= 83.

The distance between the beginning of the game and Ultimecia's time is
Z = B - A, where Z is the distance, B the year of Ultimecia and A the year of the beginning of the game.
Ultimecia lives many generations in the future. A generation is generally considered 30 years. So Z >= 30M, where M is how you define many. Personally, I'd say 10 is many, although from the most minimal point of view, 5 would do.

Therefore, Z >= 30 x 5
Z >= 150

But for Rinoa to be Ultimecia, she must be able to at least live until Ultimecia's time, i.e. Y > Z.
But the maximum of Y is 113 and the minimum of Z is 150, and therefore Y > Z can never hold.

Therefore Rinoa <> Ultimecia (sorry, no unequal sign available).

As much as you can argue on factual arguments and still get very likely or very unlikely conclusions from them, you cannot argue against maths. It holds - always. So, you cannot use Vost's argument as an example about why R=U, because it is fundamentally flawed.

Oh-- Actually, in simple Maths; you do need evidence to make the result mathematically correct. Your post came from your speculation, that's pretty much it. As far as things goes, speculations don't work that well in Maths because they are so random. In this case, there's no evidence to fully disprove or prove R=U and R!=U. It's all open to interpretation.

No, in this case it is important to point out that the alternative timeline cannot exist, because it is not possible. How does my post come from speculation? Please highlight the speculative elements of my post. And mathematics is not random.

And the flaw is inherent in all R=U arguments. Rinoa cannot exist in Ultimecia's time. The argument had its merits, until Square-Enix explicitly stated that sorceress' have normal human life spans. That is a fundamental flaw, and Vost's argument to try negate this flaw is itself fundamentally flawed.

No. There's nothing in thier statement that is aimed at Rinoa or even Ultimecia. Still not enough, and you know that there are additional methods to get into the certain timeline.

Actually, as far as I'm aware, there aren't any methods to get into a timeline that infinitely loops. If you could, it would badly mess up with the circle of events, and would mess up the loop and quite possibly tear open the fabric of space and time. But the loop that we play through seems quite perfect, and the fabric of time & space is still intact. But if you have any theories on how to get into a certain timeline, please let us all know.

So, when an idea is shown to be fundamentally flawed, it is very lucky to have it written down as very unlikely in the FAQ.

Actually, R!=U has its faults as well. So, in that simple logic, declaring R=U as 'highly unlikely' with no mention of R!=U is more like flawed.

R<>U is not fundamentally flawed. I just proved it above. R=U is fundamentally flawed, as I proved previously. Therefore, something that is fundamentally flawed cannot be considered at all when the alternative is fundamentally flawless.

I concur.

[Sir Bahamut]

Okay, there's a lot of dodgy mathematics floating about here (I study mathematics btw) which really isn't necessary.

Serapy loves pointing out the obvious point that nothing is disproven 100%. This is a literary debate, not mathematics so you're not going to get anything 100% disproven. The FAQ says what's true, namely that it's "highly unlikely". In fact, I would say it's about as proven wrong as it can possibly be in the context of literary interpretation in the sense that if you accept R=U as a valid interpretation you might as well accept Irvine=Ultimecia or Cactuar=Ultimecia as valid interpretations. Why?

Firstly, there's no good evidence. Vost and Serapy both like mentioning "evidence" without ever specifying it. In fact that's because all 'hints' found to support R=U have been debunked, or shown to not actually imply R=U (in the sense that it's much more likely that they imply something quite different). Serapy or Vost cannot name any good evidence because it doesn't exist. There are at most one or two hints left which haven't been blown out of the water, and those do not make up enough evidence for such a strong statement as R=U.

Secondly, the game not only offers no evidence, it throws every conceivable obstacle in the way of making R=U even possible to begin with. No extended sorceress lifespan, no mention of Adel's seal preventing aging, Ultimecia actively tries to kill herself and Squall and the game AND the Ultimania all imply a quite different background for Ultimecia. That alternate background implied is not, as Serapy claims, flawed. There's no flaws whatsoever in it and Serapy if you think otherwise I challenge you to name even one. The details can of course be found in the Time/Ultimecia Plot FAQ at GameFAQs.

So we have "R=U", a theory which requires you to literally conjure a scenario from out of nowhere to even make it possible, and even if you do so there aren't any good hints at all implying the theory to be true anyway. In addition we're given a perfectly plausible background for Ultimecia which is even supported by the Ultimania AND Dissidia.

Saying "nothing's been 100% disproven" anyway is all well and good, but I maintain that there's no meaningful difference between R=U and Irvine=U. As such the theory is most definitely "extremely unlikely".