Rinoa

[Vost]

The next time your formatting tags are longer than your argument, I'm going to accept that as an indication that you realize you've lost and are just hoping you can get us to give up by making your posts annoying to quote.

Actually, I've already won the argument: All I am doing here is humoring your ridiculous attempt at salvaging what little you have left of your reputation and your ideas. Also, increasing the font of your letters is not a very appropriate way to add length to your response. Overall, your notions are all stale and very poorly defended. May I suggest you take a class in logic so that you can meet the general level of intelligence that is required to communicate on these boards? Thanks.

Also, learn to use the "Edit" button. It's there for a reason.

I've used the edit button before many times; what evidence do you have that I do not know how to use it? Do you even have evidence that I have not used it? For someone who makes such a big deal about 'evidence' you really don't seem to grasp the concept that well when the shoe is on the other foot, do you? Another sign of mild retardation- I would suggest pills, psychotherapy, and more education. Thanks once again.

Saying that Rinoa becomes Ultimecia in no way explains the final villain. In order to accept the theory, a huge number of assumptions must be made, none of which are giving any support by the game. First, you would have to explain how Rinoa lives to exist in Ultimecia's time, "many generations in the future", despite Square-Enix specifically saying sorceresses don't have extended lifespans. Second, you have to give a reason why Rinoa would abandon her peace-loving principles and decide to destroy the world. And that second assumption is actually a whole series of assumptions, as I'll demonstrate here.

Actually, it explains the final villain in every possible way imaginable and it does not require any unnecessary assumptions that are not already either warranted by the game's canon plot or completely plausible by the game's canon plot. It is already explained how Rinoa exists in Ultimecia's time period: Did you not read my original explanation a few posts ago? It quite clearly relates the phenomenon of time compression to the probability of both Rinoa and Ultimecia sharing one time. To even ask this question shows you know next to nothing about the subject, so why open yourself up to the devastating attack that I am about to unleash?

The fact that Square-Enix has reported that sorceresses have normal life-spans does not weaken the theory at all; Rinoa's survival is ensured by means of her prison so why are you even bringing this up again? I look forward to your demonstration below but unfortunately you have already commenced on weak ground: My original post, if you go ahead and read it, answers the so-called 'assumptions' you critique hear. Regarding them again shows that you really have no interest in discussing this theory but would rather safeguard your own delusional interpretation of what is and what is not possible or plausible in the game. Only one problem: Your ideas hold no water against the R=U theory. Let's begin dissecting your insanity...

And now show me what in-game piece of evidence indicates that the imprisonment extends the life of the sorceress. The only sorceress we have seen imprisoned in game was Adel, who was imprisoned for 17 years, well within an average human lifespan. Thus there is no support for the life-sustaining properties of the imprisonment, and your entire argument falls apart.

That has already been presented in the game and I am not going to go through it again. If you would like to know the exact mechanics of the Sorceress Memorial, I suggest you actually play the game because it seems like you have never even done so in the first place, mmmkay? Good boy.

I'll use the most common argument, that Squall's death coupled with the prejudice against sorceresses drove her bonkers. In that case, explain the following:

Why does Rinoa not simply die right after Squall does? Even assuming the powers of a sorceress could sustain her life, she knows that it would be simple to give them up and be at peace.

This is not even an argument...why would she die when Squall does? Is her life-force linked to the life-force of Squall's? Honestly, where do you even come up with this garbage? Your question is predicated on faulty logic. Where have I said that Squall's death drove anyone 'bonker's'? What the hell are you talking about? Did you not read what I wrote a few posts ago when I systematically explained the validity of the R=U theory?

It's called suicide, genius. If she's so borken up with grief, why doesn't she just kill herself, especially since her normal lifespan is pretty much up anyway.

Why does Rinoa not start attacking the world until many generations in the future? Squall certainly didn't live that long. Why hadn't she gone crazy much sooner?

Why would Rinoa, a well respected savior of the world, be persecuted and mistreated, especially when she is close friends with the most powerful nation on the planet and is married to the guy who runs Balamb Garden, a free floating city?

This is already explained. She is imprisoned out of prejudice for magic and witches in general before Ultimecia even comes into the picture; she is not the savior of the world at this point, or whatever the heck you're trying to say here. Since you did not read my original post, let me re-post it here for your reading pleasure:

And your EVIDENCE for this imprisonment is where? We played the game. She isn't imprisoned until after Ultimecia possesses her, and even then it's only for about 5 seconds. You're making up an entire alternate timeline with NO EVIDENCE SUPPORTING IT.

Ultimecia alters the time line of Rinoa and Squall that would naturally progress if there were no interference form other times. The alternate time line is presented through both vague and clear points in the game and the evidence for it is what orignally brought the R=U theory into existence. THERE IS ON OVERWHELMING AMOUNT OF EVIDENCE TO SUPPORT IT.

I have preconceived notions that the events in the game took place in that game universe, yes. Surprising how that happens. When the game shows us her being imprisoned after the Ragnarok scene, I assume that is actually what happened, not that there is an entire alternate timeline Square wrote without even mentioning that is secretly responsible for absolutely everything in the plot. Sorry about that.

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Why would Rinoa forget her past life with Squall in her insanity, prompting her to attack him when he faces Ultimecia at the endgame?

Why would Rinoa forget who she was and attack herself at the endgame? After all, if she simply wanted to do away with herself, she could have passed on her powers and perish.

Why would Rinoa forget her previous journey, her battle against Time Compression, only to decide to initiate it herself?

Why would Rinoa choose to name herself after an enemy who she fought so hard against?

Why would Rinoa remember the name Ultimecia, when she apparently forgot everything connected to the name, such as the fact they were enemies, or that they had fought across time itself?

Why would Rinoa replace the white wings on her outfit with black ones? It may seem a silly or minor point, but since it was one of the major points that started the whole R=U idiocy in the first place, you should explain it. After all, even had she gone completely insane and decided to destroy the world, why would she reverse her outfit's color scheme (red/black instead of blue/white)? It's not as though she would say "ooh, I'm evil, let's go pick out an outfit that matches that".

Noooooooo, you posted a way things might have happened, but since your entire little tirade is occuring in a timeline that doesn't even exist in-game, there is no evidence for any of it. Saying that things might have occured one way does not force things to have occured that way. If everything went right, yes, your result might have happened. But if any one of the things that I mentioned did not go just the right way, your entire theory falls apart. You make an assumption that each one of those events happen. Your theory is built on it. You assume that she was imprisoned in your alternate timeline. You assume that she despaired because of this. You assume that that despair drives her crazy and makes her try to take over the world. BUT YOU HAVE NO EVIDENCE!

Nooooooo, if everything is as I have presented, it is not a question of whether it 'might' happen or not, it is a question of why stubborn people such as yourself do not see what is plainly evident. None of the objections you bring up are valid because they have all been explained perfectly by the R=U theory, with an OVERWHELMING AMOUNT OF EVIDENCE IN THE GAME. Go read all of the posts regarding R=U and maybe you can come back and actually argue reasonably as opposed to saying 'Blah blah blah I don't see it.'

No assumptions were ever made: every presentation is a reasonable conclusion based on the evidence and plot of the game. Hence, you ASSUME that I ASSUME, making your own accusation turn back upon yourself.

Oh, and BTW, posting your ideas over and over doesn't make them right either.

Any R=U theory is an incredibly long and fragile list of coincidences, none of which has any support in the game. And since each list in the chain builds off the other, the more assumptions you have to make (and there are far more than this), the weaker the argument gets.

Incorrect. The R=U theory is a few short paragraphs of simplicity. It wraps up all the loose ends of the game and fits in perfectly with the canonical plot already presented. I'm sorry to burst your bubble, but R=U is more or less TRUE, so the sooner you realize the weakness of your counter-arguments the sooner you'll stop criticizing the beauty of a great game.

It may be short to write out (R=U. See? Very short), but to hold consistency with the game's storyline, an incredible amount of assumptions must be made. At the end of the game, Rinoa is a happy girl living with the guy she loves. Any R=U theory must make assumptions about what would change that situation, how it would change it, why it would preserve her life until the future, why should would forget everything about her past, why should would choose the name of her former enemy, and why she would attempt to destroy everything. Your theory gives a list of possible ways that could occur, but there is no evidence supporting any of it.

At the end of the game, she does not become Ultimecia because the events have changed BECAUSE of Ultimecia's interference; you simply are not acknowledging the effect of time compression which is very clearly evidenced in the game itself. Hey, do you know what else is short? The word cat, or the word fox, or the word Joe. Try spelling those out and having fun with them since you seem to like short things...

Her aging process thus slowed or even completely halted

Again, where is your evidence that this would happen?

This is straight from the game...maybe you should actually play the game before discussing this?

Actually, it's not. Play the game, read the Ultimania, read the tutorial info. Absolutely nothing says that the sorceress seals preserve the sorceresses life.

Actually, it is. Once again, I recommend you play the game yourself and see how this statement is true. Go on...I'm not going anywhere. I'll check back on you as soon as you're ready.

and she begins to plot her revenge.

Why would she plot revenge instead of choosing to enjoy her new freedom?

It's called vengeance, ever heard of it?

You have yet to give any in-game evidence showing why she would choose vengeance though. Her personality is not exactly a very vengeful type, and since there are thousands of different choices that she could make upon be freed, why are you only saying that vengeance is the only choice she could make?

Why would she choose vengeance? You obviously have no conception of the world; how old are you, 12? Reasonable conclusions from implied or inherent points taken directly from the game's plot stand, regardless of the absence of direct presentation. It is never directly stated that Laguna is Squall's father yet the presentation is there. It is of a similar nature to the R=U theory, except that R=U is deeper and purposely obscured in the plot.

However, she does not merely wish to punish the world now as she exists in it,

Why not?

Once again, I am not about to teach you about the world; go ask your parents if you want to learn about the birds and the bees.

but to punish the world forever, especially the past where she believes she was betrayed by her confidantes and brutalized by those who hate magic and witches.

Your evidence of this betrayal and brutalization is..?

I've already covered this in the reasonable implication clause of my former posts. Also, if you're going to use an ellipsis to appear clever since your arguments are obviously garbage, at least use it correctly: it is 3 dots...not 2...not 1.

She hatches the plan of time compression

Even though Time Compression was the cause of all her pain.

Not sure why you quoted this but didn't try to answer it. Maybe you lost track of it in all those stupid tags. Maybe you don't have an answer. Or, maybe you just didn't mean to. I really have no clue, but it's still a valid point.

Stupid tags? Lol...you're a funny kid. So when your counter-arguments are failing you start criticizing the methodology of your opponent's post? My tags are just fine- the only problem you should worry about is making your arguments cogent as opposed to someone who is appearing to put up one really valid point and i'm impressed by your thinking. after another.

Yes, it's a lovely fanfic, but unfortunately has absolutely nothing supporting it.

Lol, unfortunately for your side, it is much more than a fanfic. The ideas are well-supported and the conclusions fit in the time line and character of the game. Your arguments so far are nothing but a series of questions that I and others who defend the R=U theory have already answered.

Absolutely nothing you have said fits in the time line. You said that she was persecuted and imprisoned before Ultimecia even shows up. We know that's not true from the in game timeline. You said that her friends fought to keep her locked up. We know that the in game timeline goes against that as well.

Actually, absolutely everything I have said fits in the time line. What's more is that the R=U theory collects the scattered in game evidence and presents a persuasive explanation to Ultimecia and her relation to the time of Squall and Rinoa.

Sorry, you still have a bunch of assumptions, but no evidence.

Uh, no I do not but you can keep telling yourself that if it makes you feel better, lol.

-Vost

P.S. I look forward to your response. I'll put in as many tags as I can next time- I see how much you love them.

I'm sorry, um, triple squares, but I dont understand that writing, so that's not proof to me.

Sir Bahamut and others have gone to great lengths intelligently documenting postulated evidence that R=U is just not probable.

Sir Bahamut's arguments have been invalidated, partially by me. Ultimecia being Rinoa is not only possible and plausible but greatly probable.

-Vost