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Thread: Rinoa

  1. #76
    diafnaoplzkthnxbai NeoTifa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wolf Kanno View Post
    This is my response to the whole thread.
    Oh gods, why? ಥ_ಥ


  2. #77

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    Quote Originally Posted by champagne supernova
    Quote Originally Posted by Serapy View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by champagne supernova
    Serapy, Vost's theory doesn't hold. I disproved it with the use of mathematics and statistics.
    No, on paper, you did not disprove his theory at all. You need real and strong-suggestive evidence to do so. The reason why you have claimed that his theory is incorrect is because you have interpreted relevant things the different way. Like what Squall said, people fight with each other because they have different views; this is exactly what happening in this thread.

    By the way, most things in the Final Fantasy universe are quite different compared to our very reality; such as the way how mathematics and physics are used in between FF8 and our reality and so on.
    Um, how exactly is the mathematical system different to the normal mathematical system? As far as I recall, 2 follows 1, and 3 follows 2, etc etc. And 2 > 1, therefore there is ordinality. Hence, if I drew 7 Ultima, and then the next time, I drew 5 Ultimas, I drew 2 less Ultimas. The first time meant I could cast it 7 times, the second 5, and the difference was -2. All of these numbers have a significant meaning. Therefore, there is a cardinal number system. The moment you have a cardinal number system, most (if not all) mathematical laws hold (like addition, subtraction, multiplication, logs, antilogs, calculus).

    So, mathematics is definitely very close, if not identical to our mathematics.
    I've only mentioned most of the things in the Final Fantasy universe; not exactly everything. You are talking about how mathematics are used in the gameplay side and I agree with that. However, this thread is about R=U, which is more connected with the story rather than the gameplay. Do you acknowledge that the story and gameplay are not exactly the same?

    Regarding the gameplay, the accepted or "normal" mathematics definitely have to be used due to two reasons; the origin of the way how the PS system codes came from Maths (as well as binary and so on) and if it didn't use proper Maths; we would be scratching our heads and good chances are that the battles won't reach satisfying results. The quests side also can be applied to this post.

    As for the story sequences, it's the same thing. The developers have had to code to make the next sequence appear and so on.

    However, proper Maths don't work that well in the story sense (e.g. how the incidents have happened, how did specific physics occur and so on.) The writers of FF8 just put whatever they want in a very sound sense, writing a story does not have to apply to proper Maths; it's not nessecary.

    The story did not give us exact numbers, especially when it comes to R=U. You are only using your numbers to aid your interpretation. Using numbers that were not visible in the game tend to be random and therefore may result in either yes or no answer.


    Quote Originally Posted by champagne supernova
    Quote Originally Posted by Serapy View Post
    Why don't you prove that Rinoa is indeed not Ultimecia? On paper, you will get the same answer, regardless of whether or not you may think that R!=U sounds better.
    Okay. A sorceress has a normal human lifespan. Rinoa is a sorceress. Therefore, Rinoa has a normal lifespan. The maximum of a normal lifespan is realistically 100. Therefore Rinoa's life constraint is:
    X+Y <= 100 (where X is how long she has lived, and Y is the amount of years she will live in the future).
    X = 17 (read the game manual).
    Therefore Y <= 83.
    This is more complicated than you may think. I'm surprised that you didn't use your Maths to analyse the other factors that may link Rinoa to Ultimecia; instead you only have analysed one thing.

    Quote Originally Posted by champagne supernova
    Quote Originally Posted by Serapy View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by champagne supernova
    As much as you can argue on factual arguments and still get very likely or very unlikely conclusions from them, you cannot argue against maths. It holds - always. So, you cannot use Vost's argument as an example about why R=U, because it is fundamentally flawed.
    Oh-- Actually, in simple Maths; you do need evidence to make the result mathematically correct. Your post came from your speculation, that's pretty much it. As far as things goes, speculations don't work that well in Maths because they are so random. In this case, there's no evidence to fully disprove or prove R=U and R!=U. It's all open to interpretation.
    No, in this case it is important to point out that the alternative timeline cannot exist, because it is not possible. How does my post come from speculation? Please highlight the speculative elements of my post. And mathematics is not random.
    Where did I mention this "alternative timeline" text that you speak of? R!=U and R=U are not entirely based on this timeline by the way.

    If you are stating things that were not visually available from the game; your statement will then become just speculation. If the game explained more, then perhaps we will have a greater chance of reaching the satisfying results but that does not necessarily mean that such results will become 100% proved or disproved. To make it 100% proved or disproved, the plot of FF8 would become very different and offical statements from SE would be required. The entire story is absolutely fantastic, let's leave it alone.

    Quote Originally Posted by champagne supernova
    Quote Originally Posted by Serapy View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by champagne supernova
    And the flaw is inherent in all R=U arguments. Rinoa cannot exist in Ultimecia's time. The argument had its merits, until Square-Enix explicitly stated that sorceress' have normal human life spans. That is a fundamental flaw, and Vost's argument to try negate this flaw is itself fundamentally flawed.
    No. There's nothing in thier statement that is aimed at Rinoa or even Ultimecia. Still not enough, and you know that there are additional methods to get into the certain timeline.
    Actually, as far as I'm aware, there aren't any methods to get into a timeline that infinitely loops. If you could, it would badly mess up with the circle of events, and would mess up the loop and quite possibly tear open the fabric of space and time. But the loop that we play through seems quite perfect, and the fabric of time & space is still intact. But if you have any theories on how to get into a certain timeline, please let us all know.
    Remember that U=A thread I've made? I have mentioned something about this. However, I rather go with the mythologies, not the way how timelines exactly work.

    Quote Originally Posted by champagne supernova
    Quote Originally Posted by Serapy View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by champagne supernova
    So, when an idea is shown to be fundamentally flawed, it is very lucky to have it written down as very unlikely in the FAQ.
    Actually, R!=U has its faults as well. So, in that simple logic, declaring R=U as 'highly unlikely' with no mention of R!=U is more like flawed.
    R<>U is not fundamentally flawed. I just proved it above. R=U is fundamentally flawed, as I proved previously. Therefore, something that is fundamentally flawed cannot be considered at all when the alternative is fundamentally flawless.
    No, you didn't prove that at all. Remember that there are so many factors, not just human life spans-- Just because you have analysed one thing, it doesn't mean you have proved the theory 100%.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sir B
    So we have "R=U", a theory which requires you to literally conjure a scenario from out of nowhere to even make it possible, and even if you do so there aren't any good hints at all implying the theory to be true anyway. In addition we're given a perfectly plausible background for Ultimecia which is even supported by the Ultimania AND Dissidia
    You have mentioned something like "SE humored us just by replacing the names of Rinoa weapons with Ultimecia's weapons; ridiculous" and now you said this whole thing is supported by Dissidia? Having played the game myself and taken Ultimecia's statements seriously, I still am not surprised.

    This is true though, you have to admit. Most of you people think R!=U is true simply because it does sound make more sense than R=U. That's it.

  3. #78

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    Quote Originally Posted by Serapy
    You have mentioned something like "SE humored us just by replacing the names of Rinoa weapons with Ultimecia's weapons; ridiculous" and now you said this whole thing is supported by Dissidia? Having played the game myself and taken Ultimecia's statements seriously, I still am not surprised.
    That was my initial reaction upon hearing the weapon names issue, true. But then I learned that plenty of Dissidia characters use weapons belonging to other characters, and that Ultimecia otherwise doesn't act in any way which implies she is Rinoa. In fact, as has been pointed out, she just confirms the motives offered by the game and the Ultimania, which don't have anything to do with Rinoa.

    You ask several times why, if Square didn't intend for R=U, didn't they go ahead and say "It's not true", arguing that this implies the game is very open to interpretation and that R=U is hinted at. That's just flat out wrong bad analysis though. Of course Square aren't going to straight out say "it's wrong" since the fact that we still debate this generates publicity for the game! And here's a question back at you: if they did intend for R=U, why didn't they put anything at all in the Ultimania which hints at it, and why did they instead have the Ultimania imply something quite different (and in addition make the theory almost impossible via the lifespan comment)? Further, why didn't they make it clear in Dissidia? It was a perfect opportunity to put some serious hints in, but they didn't. Why? It goes both ways. You can't appeal to Square's lack of confirmation as an argument in any way.

    This is true though, you have to admit. Most of you people think R!=U is true simply because it does sound make more sense than R=U. That's it.
    Um, and what exactly is wrong with believing the option which makes sense rather than the option which doesn't? I don't know what you're even trying to say here. R=U has been shown to lack evidence and require a whole lot of made up assumptions to even work in the first place, while R=/=U has been shown to make perfect sense, and to be implied by the game, the Ultimania and Dissidia. Is that not good enough of a reason for believing R=/=U to you?

    If we're going to start accepting theories which don't make sense, which is what you seem to be saying, then you've got to make room for inane theories like Irvine=Ulty. And frankly that's silly.

  4. #79
    Fortune Teller Recognized Member Roogle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wolf Kanno View Post
    Dissidia actually explains Ultimecia's motive a bit better since we get to hear her talk about it but long time supporters will be annoyed that she's like any other villain.

    (SPOILER)She only wants to do Time Compression to become a god and be worshiped forever. There is no dialogue concerning her true identity being someone we know. She's just a crazy sorceress from the future who is obsessed with Time and world domination. She spends more time trying to conspire against her fellow members of Chaos (mostly CoD, Kefka, Kuja, and eventually Sephiroth) cause their goals to annihilate everything kinda screws up their plans for eternal power and glory.
    This is the type of information that is important to keep in mind. In games like Dissidia, the developers usually try to keep factual story and character traits in tact.

    In Capcom Fighting Jam, for example, we can see characters from various Street Fighter games react in a factual manner despite the non-canonical nature of the game. Based on the way that games like this are usually handled, I am very certain that the Rinoa and Ultimecia theory would have been referenced if it were meant to be something that the player should contemplate.
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  5. #80

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    Applied mathematics is a method of taking real-world problems and putting it in a mathematical context, so it is easier to solve (although I don't study Mathematics, I study Economics, so I do a hell of a lot of applied maths).

    You asked me to prove R<>U through the use of Mathematics. So I put the argument that Rinoa cannot exist in Ultimecia's due to the huge timegap between them - and the fact that there was no natural way for Rinoa to last until then. The Ultimania explicitly stated that a sorceress has a normal lifespan, which kind of implies that there is no magical way to extend one's life, otherwise sorceress' would use these magical techniques to extend their lives. This is reinforced by Adel scouring the world, searching for a successor.

    And you cannot argue about years either. Laguna in the flashback is 27, and is 44 in the normal time of the game. These 17 years also represent Squall's age (unsurprisingly, as he fathered Squall at the time of the flashbacks). So, years and aging is normal either.

    Another piece of evidence why Rinoa is not Ultimecia is the fact that everyone has to believe in the other so that they continue to exist in Ultimecia's time - if they stopped believing in each other, they would fade away, as they cannot exist in Ultimecia's time (this is said by Laguna, by the way).

    So there is no normal way for Rinoa to live long enough to be Ultimecia. This would appear to be a very very very good proof as to why Rinoa is not Ultimecia.

    I also cannot see a Rinoa from an alternative timeline manipulating the canon timeline, simply because the canon timeline is full of paradoxes. SeeD was formed because Squall fell into a time warp and met Edea in the past. Squall only fell into that time warp because he was a SeeD. This is a circular loop. Any interference from an outside source would cause some influence in this loop, and cause it to stop working properly.

    Basically, if someone wants to prove R=U, then they must show how Rinoa can exist in Ultimecia's time, without messing up the delicate balance of the circular loop of the game. Playing the game we can see that this loop does hold, and therefore the destiny of all the main charcters is predetermined. This is also a massive theme of the game, reinforcing the fact that R<>U.

    So, show me that Rinoa can exist in Ultimecia's time. Because until anyone can, R=U is a highly highly unlikely theory.

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