Japanese grammar

[Rye]

I'm doing pretty well in Japanese this semester, I have an A thus far, but I didn't do as well as I'd have liked on my last test because I have a trouble with sentence formation, due to the particles. Since I really want to keep my A, since I'm teetering between a B+ and an A for this semester, I need to get sentence formation down for my final.

Can you guys help me out with basic Japanese particles and when they're used, and sentence examples? The particles I've learned are ga, ni, ho (o), ha (wa), de... I think that's just about all of them. With basic sentences like, say, sushi ho (o) tabemasu, I'm solid. But when you have longer sentences with a lot of stuff going on, I get confused

Thanks guys!

[Shoeberto]

I'm about six months out of Japanese so I'm a little rusty, but I can try to explain a few things.

ni is always a destination, and in some phrases you have to understand that the literal english translation isn't what the Japanese would use. For example, where we say "take a bath" they say "enter the bath" so the bath is treated as a location. o is for direct objects that you're performing an action on, which you seem to have down.

Wa and Ga are weird particles because they're both technically subject markers. The difference, from what I recall, is placement in the sentence. Wa is always for if you're indicating the subject at the start of the sentence, and ga is for subjects later in the sentence. de is for the location of an action. I think a good way of differentiating between it and ni is like saying "I eat at a restaurant" (something like "resutorando de tabemasu") and "I am going to a restaurant"

Is that helpful at all? It's a little weird. When I had to analyze a long sentence, I would always look for the nouns and verbs I recognized, then try to contextualize to understand the particles. A lot of the way we learned was just through pure repetition of simple phrases using those particles, then expanding on them to more complicated forms and repitition. See if there's anything like that in the book or if your professor could write some example sentences starting from base usage up to more complicated usage with multiple particles.

[Momiji]

I always thought the proper kana for the particle 'o' was を (wo), not ほ (ho). o_O

As for grammar, I have no idea. I taught myself everything I know so far, and I'm always learning new words and trying to teach myself kanji, but I think grammar and kanji will have to come later on if I can manage to take some formal classes. However, learning both hiragana and katakana was a piece of cake for me.

[Marshall Banana]

The Summoner of Leviathan posted a really helpful link in the other thread about Japanese; I look at it whenever I have trouble putting together a sentence: Tae Kim's Japanese guide to Japanese grammar

[Brandless Goods]

Yeah I have a lot of questions about Japanese too. I've studied for a long time so I know a few things but there are still so many confusing things.

[The Summoner of Leviathan]

I just had a test on keigo (humble/respectful speech) and particles. I got raped by it. Though I will impart what I know about particles, I believe I have a decent grasp of them despite not always doing amazing on my tests.

So some stuff from my text book and notes, as well as my head. BTW I tend to use plain form of verbs over polite, just easier to write them.

So first up is を.

For を I know three distinct uses of it:

• direct object of a transitive verb
  -日本語を勉強している。 (I am studying Japanese)
• to cross a place
  -ロケットは宇宙を飛んでいった。 (The rocket travelled through space)
• to depart from (figuratively, sorta...can't remember all the details...)
  -大学を出る。 ({I} will graduate from university)

Next is the ever useful に.

• destination
  -大学に行く。(I am going to the university)
• indirect object
  -母は僕に昼ご飯を食べさせた。(My mother made me eat lunch)
• time
  -１１時に日本語のクラスが終わる。(Japanese class finishes at 11 o'clock)
  -Note: Some time words are not marked by に, such as 明日、今日、昨日、来年, etc...
• purpose of movement (used only with verbs of movement)
  -スーパーに買いに行く。 (I am going to the supermarket to buy food)
  -it is implied here that you are buying food, why else go to the supermarket? Though you could explicitly state it if you want).
• location of existence (used with ある and いる)
  -猫がいすの上にいる。 (The cat is on the chair)

Now for で.

• scope
  -カナダではモントリオールの方が一番きれいな町です。(Within Canada, l is the most beautiful city)
• by means of
  -バスで大学に行った。(By means of the bus, I went to university/I took the/a bus to university)
• place of action
  -図書館で勉強する。(I study in the library)

So the next one is は.

Basically は is the topic marker in a sentence. That means it is basically defines what you are going to talk about. は implies that both the speaker and the listener are aware of the topic being discussed. Often when the topic is obvious (such as when talking about yourself), it can be omitted.

Now the tricky one, が.

The typical definition of が is the "subject" marker. Basically, while は defines the topic, が marks the subject. From what I understand, が is much more emphatic than は thus the information in front of the が tends to be more important. In cases where you have to choose between は and が, が is used if you want to use more emphasis, though often they can be interchangeable. Also, が is used to mark something the speaker either thinks the listener is unaware of or is unaware of himself (such as if the speaker wanted to know if there was a cat in the room).

I am sorry if this is not helpful but が is like the hardest particle to fully appreciate. I have a hard time knowing the differences between は and が. :/

Also, が is used to mark the indirect object of a intransitive verb.

If anyone notices any mistakes or something is unclear please point it out to me. I am just a student like you guys so I am bound to have mistakes. ^__^;;;

Hopefully this is helpful!

[Momiji]

My head is spinning after reading all of that. x_X

[The Summoner of Leviathan]

There are other less common particles too. It is all fun and confusion :P

[Brandless Goods]

But the best way to learn a language isn't to read it from a text book and try to solve it like a math equation. You gotta go out there and practice it!

[The Summoner of Leviathan]

Short-version of what I was going to write:

If you are practising to any degree (through conversation), you will still reflectively analyze the language and form pattern recognitions in much the same way as you would "solve a math equation". The difference is in medium which makes the process different however the mechanics are similar.

Ultimately, the best way is to have a degree of both. Neither one on their own is sufficient to fully grasp a language.

[Brandless Goods]

I can agree with that but it seems like most people just study out of their books about concepts called "particles" and such and get all confused when if they just went out and practiced the language it would all come to sense clean and easy.

[The Summoner of Leviathan]

But if you don't know their functions you can't really use them. Also, if you use the wrong particle, it can change the whole meaning of a sentence or a nuance of meaning. So using them without knowing their purpose or role can complicate matters.

1. ロケットは宇宙で飛んでいる。ロケットは宇宙へ飛んでいる。
2. ロケットは宇宙を飛んでいる。

In the first sentence, you are implying that the rocket flew from the Earth to space. In 2., the rocket is flying through space.

By practising you get a better feel for the difference, but you first need to know what the difference is.

A more subtle example is:

1. カレーライスでいい。
2. カレーライスがいい。

The difference between the two rather subtle but important. The first implies that curry rice is sufficient like it is not necessarily the speaker's favourite but they'll make due. The second one implies that they like curry rice.

Personally, the more I practise は/が, the more I understand the differences between when to use which.

Also, conversing in a language is different than writing in a language. Look within the differences in how you write, especially formal essays, and how you talk. The case of Japanese, the distinction is greater in my opinion. Most university classes are geared towards a textual ability rather than conversation which tend to take a secondary place.

Oh and the confusion would still take place with particles when you are talking until you mastered them. There has to be a framework of the language, whether implicitly or explicitly present, in order for the it to flow easily. That framework as you get older becomes more explicit and a lot harder to acquire. It is not as simple as "going out and practising it". Whether you are practising it through conversation and/or by text books, there will always be a point where something is confusing or hard to grasp.

I think your point is more valid in an immersion context, however for most university students such a method is hardly available. The closest thing is to get a language exchange partner (which I really should do!).

EDIT: I realize I being argumentative and opinionated. ^__^;;;

[Brandless Goods]

Those two examples are exactly the kinds of things that are better learned from hearing it in context.

Also for the rocket thing: If you said 宇宙で飛んでる it would only make sense in very specific context. Therefore, that is something that you really can't learn from a book. You just have to see it to know the difference. Otherwise, usually someone would just say 宇宙を飛んでる。 If you wanted to say it flew to space from earth you'd want to see something like ロケットは宇宙に向かって飛んでいる。

I bet this stuff isn't anywhere in any Japanese books!

ps. I guess it still is pretty hard to actually find Japanese people to practice with. However trying to read a manga or play a game in Japanese would be really useful if the reader followed all the way through, even if it is slow at first. Also, places like sharedtalk.com or thejapanesepage.com would be good places to get answers to the many questions the will undoubtedly have to be answered through the process.

[The Summoner of Leviathan]

I made a mistake in my example. I put で instead of へ. The meaning of "ロケットは宇宙で飛んでいる" is more or less that the rocket is flying in circles in space. lol. 「ロケットは宇宙へ飛んでいる」 is what I should of wrote, which means "the rocket flew from Earth to space".

Also why say something 「ロケットは宇宙に向かって飛んでいる。」or 「ロケットは地球から宇宙へ飛んでいる。」when it is much easier to say 「ロケットは宇宙へ飛んでいる。」 and the meaning is the same?

You contradicted yourself by saying that "you can't learn from a book" then stating that you have to "see it to know the difference". A textbook would explain the difference between the two, so you would understand and see the difference. A good teacher then would make you practise the differences in other circumstances. This leads me to point out that I think we are talking about two different things. It seems you are speaking from a self-teaching methodology whereas I amcoming from a classroom scenario where you have some sort of textbook AND an instructor. There still tends to be the emphasis on reading and writing but there is conversational too (this year my sensei teaches primarily in Japanese whereas my first year my sensei taught in English). Also, a good instructor will make you practise.

There is a problem with learning from video games, anime and/or manga. It is that most of those media are dialogue-centric. Meaning much of the narrative is transcribed through what the characters say, whether you are listening to them saying it or reading it off a screen/book. Therefore, often the language you learn is colloquial, slang, etc...This sort of language is okay in Japanese to talk to your friends. Anyone else? No. It would be pretty hard to find situations where keigo is used, though they would come up only in rare or brief moments.

Example of degrees of politeness:

お待ちになって下さい
お待ちして下さい
待って下さい
待って
待て

They all say the same thing, to various degrees of politeness. The first two would fall under keigo, respectful and humble form respectively. 待って下さい　is generally considered polite speech. 待って is something you hear often in anime and is casual. 待て is the imperative form of the verb 待つ. The imperative is sometimes heard in anime but it is considered awfully rude and tends to be only used by police and such or in grammatical structures. Though you can also say 待てよ　which is a softer, less commanding version of 待て. Note, I will admit that the list given above is probably not exhaustive of the degrees of politeness within the Japanese language.

There is also various contractions that are more prevalent in speech that might not appear so often in writing. Such as shortening -ている to -てる or -てしまう to　-ちゃう. Thus if you are not aware of them, it can cause problems when reading something less casual and more formal.

I like to re-iterate that I think practising through means of exposure whether conversation or media is good but I believe that a concrete knowledge of the mechanics helps immensely as well. There is a difference between knowing that in certain situations you say "X" instead of "Y" and knowing why you say "X" instead of "Y". Both are useful, but only represent one side of the whole.

[Brandless Goods]

Why say に向かって　instead of へ？ It sounds better. "The rocket flew to space might be a boring sentence to someone trying to describe something important, like a rocket. You may want to say "the rocket flow toward the universe" or something, right? Yeah it's harder to say, but it sounds better. Also へ doesn't have to mean from "Earth". I could be from anywhere to space. It just indicated toward that direction. So in some context you very well may want to say 地球から宇宙へ飛んでた。

When I said you have to see it, I meant you have to see it being used in a real setting as opposed to reading it in a text book with a few examples with only small example of context.

There is no problem with learning Japanese from manga or games. That's the worst thing I've ever heard anyone say. There are vast amounts of manga with all kinds of different situations and plots and stories. There are thousands of different stories with different people who speak different ways and in different dialects. If you read Rurouni Kenshin you'd learn really old and unusal terms, which are pretty much useless but great to know. If you read Dragon Ball you'd learn hillbilly speech. You could read something like Gantz or Hajime no Ippo to learn what a highschool kid might sound like. Aside from actually hanging out with Japanese people, manga is one of the best ways to study.

I'm sure all of your degrees of politeness can be found althroughout a variety of different mangas or games. On top of that, things like しまう, おく、or ちゃんと, which may be difficult to understand are better learned through hearing or reading them in context rather than studying them from a textbook. If they don't make sense to you right off the bat, as I said, it'd be good to ask a Japanese person from the websites I showed. Sure, you could learn them as words from a text book. But you wouldn't get a feeling of how they are applied or what kind of neuance they give off in specific situations.

Also, concrete knowledge of mechanics? You mean grammar? Useage? Thats also the kind of thing you learn from experience. Yeah. Its good to learn how to read Japanese and learn the function of particles before you dive into a manga or a conversation in Japanese, but if you rely solely on a textbook anywhere after that you won't make any real progress.