Japanese grammar

[Brandless Goods]

I'm going to jump in with Levian here and say that a basis with a good textbook and classroom education is a HUGE advantage. That's not to say you can't learn a language by diving in - as a matter of fact, that really helps too. (Of course, I'm talking about living in Japan here, none of this "I'm learning from manga" crap - that's what I think that is, crap) When I read something with 俺は in every sentence, it hurts me. A) It doesn't need to be repeated, and B) In the absence of "pleasant company" it reads to me as more rude than anything.

I'm saying this because I live in Japan right now and my speaking has improved by leaps and bounds. So has my writing, but that's because I'm still taking classes, with teachers and textbooks. Without that I still wouldn't understand the backgrounds on a good half of the things I am able to say. And I still suck at Japanese.

Absolutely everything I know I've learned from two places. Japanese people, and Japanese games. Sure, I'm not totally fluent in Japanese, but I've got enough down now to communicate and to understand whats going on in conversations with J people I happen to meet. I've never even been to Japan before. People who rely on book work and teachers and don't actively go out and try to acquire the language don't get far. I've seen so many kids struggling with Japanese class because it was too complicated because they didn't know better than to read little descriptions and try to answer dumb questions.

1. 俺 is not bad when you're posting on an internet forum. Everyone says that in japan.

2. Quit saying manga is crap. It's an awesome learning source.

3Lets continue this argument in Japanese so that
a. we can practice
b.if you're better than me then I'll shut up and you're right.

[The Summoner of Leviathan]

Beginner's classes are based a lot on repetitive exercises that are meant to establish the basics but there is a lot more than that. Especially in upper level classes. Like I said, I am taught in 90% Japanese. Sensei, only uses English for stuff we don't know or to clarify and even then she will try and get us used to Japanese. Moreover, we do projects and assignments that forces us to put our skills beyond simple exercises. Heck, right now we are in groups working on skits. Also, given that it is a university setting, they are always clubs and stuff to join for language exchange or even asking the sensei about students who want to do it. So there is a lot within and without the class you can do.

And about 俺. 1. Not everyone uses it; it is a male pronoun. 2. It is very casual. In other words, it is only proper to use it in very specific context. As much as you can say that it is the internet, there will be a diverse group of people here, some that will be your superiors in different regards. So yeah, you can use 俺 but some like Clouded Sky might take offence while others could take it as a sign of arrogance or being rude. Personally, it doesn't bother me but I tend to use 僕 because 俺 feels too rough for me. Tip if you ever go to Japan, use　僕 or 私, both are considered to be polite.

And I used English because I need to shower soon and head off to class so a lot easier to convey this amount of information fast.

BTW saying "if you're better than me then I'll shut up and you're right" is not very conducive of an open dialogue of learning and discussion.

[Brandless Goods]

Forum = casual environment. I don't care who the hell you guys are on the other side. If we're on a final fantasy forum 俺 is fine to use. It's not too rough. It's just casual. Yeah, its a male word. I didn't mean literally "everyone". When I say everyone loves final fantasy I don't literally mean "everyone". You should /know/ who I'm talking about. On top of that, you're learning in a classroom environment. Of course you're not used to hearing that word. Japanese people don't learn slang in classes either. You learn that stuff from talking to real people. P.S. If I go to Japan and say 僕 people will think I'm a wimp. At least I'll sound tough if I say 俺. Yeah yeah yeah, I /know/ you can't just say it when and where the hell ever you want to say it. I've had plenty of formal experiences too. You just gotta know when and where is the right time to say it and don't be scared.

Since when has this been an "open dialogue of learning and discussion"? I don't consider this petty argument to be a constructive discussion in the least. If Clouded is better than me and he says classes are better then he's proved his point by being better and he wins the argument. No b u l l s h it. Are you really so shallow that you'd go as far as calling this a "dialogue of learning and discussion"?

Besides, it doesn't seem to me like he really knows what he's talking about.

And when I said lets continue this is Japanese, I was talking to Clouded. You really think you're up for that?

[Clouded Sky]

じゃ、最初から、私はまだあまり上手じゃないと思うから、ごめんね。Ｂｒａｎｄｌｅｓｓ　ｇｏｏｄｓは「俺よりＣＳのほうが上手だったら、私の考え方はちょっと違う」と言っ炊けどいろいろな理由でそれは違うと思う 。例えば、違う教科書のこととか違う話すの経験とかどのくらい日本語を勉強して板のことなどがあるね。初めから今までに年間半になってきた。もう、はじめから私はすごく下手で頑張っていた。多分私の前のポストはち ょっと強過ぎたんだ。。。漫画で勉強できると思うけどそれは一番いい勉強し方じゃない。。。Ｂｒａｎｄｌｅｓｓ　ｇｏｏｄｓとＬｅｖｉａｎは両方ちょっと正しと思う。経験で勉強のはすごく便利だけど、それだけでは 大変ね。もし、教科書があれば、それで知らないところが調べられる。もちろん、日本人も聞いてもいいし、辞書を使ってもいいし。。。でも、教科書は日本を勉強のために出されたから、調べたほうがいいんじゃない？日 本人は「使い方はこれ。。。」と言えるけど、私があった日本人は教師じゃない。。。（今私は東京に住んでいるんだ。。。）にほんごの教師が「使い方はこれ。。。」と「使い方の理由は。。。」がいえるからそれを使っ た方がいいんじゃない？もちろん、Ｂｒａｎｄｌｅｓｓ　ｇｏｏｄｓの話し方はいいから、「経験だけでは悪い。。。」が言われられないね。日本へ着たから、私のにほんごレベルがふえてきたとおもう。でも、私の生活の 経験の以外に日本語のじゅぎょうを取っている。そこで私の書くことと読むことが上手になってきた。今は春休みから、私の書き方が下がってきたかもしれない。

間違いが多いかもしれない、ごめん。一日中保育園で働いていたんだ。すごく疲れている。

あああ。。。

最後に、その「俺」のこと。。。実は、俺があまり使われてないと思う。。。友達$と一緒に飲みに行くだけのは私の友達から「俺」を聞こえる時だ。だから、聞くと、そごく無礼な感じが思い出す。本当に、私の友達はい つも「私」と「僕」を使っている。この人たちは大学生なんだ。。。

ＥＤＩＴ：練習ありがとうございます！＾＿＾

ＥＤＩＴ2： I also just realized I essentially repeated what I said in English in Japanese. Whoops! As you can see, I've still got a ways to go. I would like to apologize in English though because it's easier to say this: I may have jumped at you at first because I have a huge aversion to "learning Japanese FOR manga" which is different than "learning Japanese THROUGH manga." Some people might consider the first a valid pursuit, and at the risk of being a complete jerk to some people here and some of my friends, I wholeheartedly disagree. I just get really upset at the idea that all Japan is is anime and manga. Sure, you can learn Japanese partially through anime and/or manga, but FOR GODS' SAKES, don't learn it simply for the manga. Please, please take time to appreciate other aspects! Please learn that the historical capital is Kyoto, not Tokyo! Go ahead, watch some Bleach, read some One Piece, but please don't do it solely for that. I'm not point figures, and especially not at you Brandless Goods because it sounds like you've got a good grounding. It just upsets me when people compound Japan down to that.

Sorry to get so self-righteous - just thought I'd let you know why my first post came off as so aggressive. Yes, I'm a Japanese major, currently writing my thesis on the Japanese health care system, (AND THE SAD THING IS, I'll probably end up knowing more about that than this, at times, infuriating-to-learn language!!!) that doesn't mean everyone has to do that, just, augh... maybe the internet just makes me crazy.

[The Summoner of Leviathan]

Like I said, I really don't care if you say 俺, 僕, 私, or even あたし :P Heck, say 俺さま if you want. Though I'd probably giggle at that point. I always found something funny about 俺さま. Heck, if I want to emphasize my own sexuality, I could use あたし, which I'd never do unless being sarcastic.

Actually, I have always been constructive during the whole thing. For some reason, you are taking a quite offensive stance against what I am saying. I have not at any point in this whole thread personally attacked you, yet you act as if I had. If you had carefully read what I had typed, you would have realized that at some points we were actually agreeing. I do think that learning completely out of a text book is not the best way. But I think just reading manga, anime, or playing video games equally flawed for different reasons. That either on their own are lacking. I believe a mixture of both is good: structured learning and experience. A classroom is only one way in which the two can meet but hardly the only way. I will not say that a classroom setting is without flaws; there are plenty of flaws I could point out. However, there is no perfect way to learn a language as you get older. Ideally, we should all learn languages at like the age of 5 or younger. Our brains are super receptive to languages then. But for those exact reasons, as adults we do not acquire languages the same way a child does.

As long as you continue with your current attitude, I could hardly say that you are being constructive. You behave competitively as if this is some sort of competition to prove who can type the best in Japanese. Hardly a constructive environment. Sometimes people might think you made a mistake, they might actually be right or they might misinterpret your meaning, but there is hardly a need to act like we are attacking you, which is exactly how you have behaved. None of us are perfect, we all make mistakes even in our own mother tongue.

Agree with Clouded insofar as the romantic idea that often many people have of Japan. Some people have this weird super-amazing-awesome picture of Japan. It can be kinda scary when you think about it.

Oh, and to respond to your little baiting Brandless, I can type in Japanese if I wanted to. I will admit that I will make mistakes but that has nothing to do with the point I was trying to make and everything to do with the fact that I am a bad student (don't review and practise as much as I should) that has 4 other classes which consists of intensive readings to deal with as well. Also, English is much more expedient at expressing the ideas that I had wanted to express given that I don't always have the luxury of time to be able to put my thoughts into Japanese.

[フランズ]

I understand where brandless goods is coming from. I went to 2 semesters of japanese at my community college. By the time I had finished 2 I was better than a lot of the people who had taken all four. That's when I realized how much of a waste of time going to class was for me. I think that knowing basic grammar structure is something that you have to have before you can really talk to anybody, or read anything. THAT"S why class is important, but after I found tae kim's guide to japanese, I was able to progress and learn everything that was taught in 2 WHOLE YEARS, in only 1 MONTH. Adding time to learn hiragana and katakana and getting used to japanese, it took me maybe 2 months.

Maybe you guys have different classes, but seriously, why would I PAY to spend an extra 1.75 years to learn basic grammar?

And yes I agree that there is a lot of good information in the classes to learn, but I think that that stuff can be learned a lot faster, and in a more fun way if you are reading manga or playing games.

[Clouded Sky]

I guess it can vary on class than - we had a test that we were expected to pass the first week on hiragana. Katakana the second.

Granted, this is not a community college.

[The Summoner of Leviathan]

Yeah, we were taught Hiragana and Katakana the first week and a half, albeit I missed most of that stuff because I had to go back home for personal reasons, it was the easiest part.

I noticed a big difference between my first and second year. Besides different sensei thus teaching styles, the first year was really to hammer down the basics since we are expected to understand sensei as she instructs in Japanese. So I did find that sometimes it was a bit slow or repetitive during my first year but in part it was due so that we had a solid foundation for the coming years.

[Brandless Goods]

よくがんばって書いたね、ｃｓ

理解できたからいいや

じゃ、それに答えて、オレまったく反対だ。おれにとって、授業は絶対にいらない。教科書はたまに役に立つから、ときどき読んだほうがいいけどそれだけでは十分じゃない。教科書と俺たちの経験は違うのはあたりまえ！ それは関係ない！日本語の教科書を読めば読むほど学べるんじゃない？あと一番ぺらぺら人の学び方は一番いい学び方のはずじゃないの？彼らはたくさんの事を経験してるから知ってるはずじゃない？だからＣＳは少しの経 験しかないからＣＳの言ってることは信憑性がない.　経験がないのに一番いい学び方わかるはずがない。みたいなぁ～

ま、授業取っても悪くないと思うけどね。オレも前に三つの違う大学で日本語のクラスを取ったけど全部にがっかりした。あと、ＣＳは東京に住んでるから授業の有無にかかわらず一年間ぐらいでうまくなれる。すぐにＣＳ はオレよりうまくなるかもね！

てゆか、きっとみなは「おれ」を使うもん！ＣＳは聞いたことないとかありえないし！ｃｓは男だよね？本当にだれも言わないの？

Summoner of Leviathanへ、
おれは張り合ってなんかない！Leviathanのように何も習わずに"i learned about particles today!"や"taking class is important to learn!"って言う人はいっぱいいるけど、クラスに頼ってる人はあまり上達しないと思う。そういう人ばっかり見てきた。自分で"I realize I'm being argumentative and opinionated"と言ったじゃん！

[rubah]

I'm afraid I'm going to have to invoke the "please don't post only in other languages without a translations" clause since you guys have gotten kinda heated and I'm too lazy to use google languages xD

(you all can keep practicing your nihongo, just post a summary for the rest of us)

[crono_logical]

Yeah, you should all post translations as well Especially since I quite like having japanese and english side by side, makes it easier to match words I don't know together and learn them Shame I don't actually come across that often, the closest normally being english subs to japanese audio in anime which isn't quite the same since you can't learn the kanji as well (and they often don't match anyway - lazy translators)

[フランズ]

静かさ。。。

[Brandless Goods]

Well I don't feel like translating everything word for word but

cs basically said I can't say if he's better he wins the argument just like that because there are factors like different text books and different amount of experience between us that make it unfair.

I said the one who's best wins by default because the argument is about who's study method works better and since the best guy is better than everyone they have no way to contradict him, regardless of experience or what kind of book you use to study.

And then I said everyone absolutely does use the word ore and its really weird that he hasn't heard it.

Anyway, shall we talk about Japanese grammar? 8D

[Clouded Sky]

Hey, just a follow up here.

First, I suppose I was a bit off base. I was in an environment surrounded by 5 year olds and 85 year olds, not the best for figuring out regular usage. That's not to say it's common, but perhaps more common than I made it out to be.

Back in Tokyo now, a little more reality.

Ore is used, but is limited to groups of friends. Especially when you're hanging out with your guy friends. I've heard it a fair amount recently after paying attention. So I thought maybe I could use it myself among friends. Well, then while having lunch with two of my female friends I used it and they looked at me, "WHAT?" They told me something along the lines of that was too coarse and that it would be best for me to use boku. Which also gets thrown around amongst groups of friends. And is a much safer bet in general. Keep the ores for when you're hanging out with "the guys". At least, I think that's what I've learned. In fact, I think I'm just confused.