Epic Folk Rock <3
Otyg... is all you need.
Otyg!
YouTube - Otyg Trollslottet
Epic Folk Rock <3
Otyg... is all you need.
Otyg!
YouTube - Otyg Trollslottet
Ah, good. Nice to see that you have discovered Viking Metal.
I just wanted to point out that:
A. Finntroll are not Viking Metal, but rather Folk Metal. There is a difference. Folk Metal incorporates a lot more folk melodies and typically incorporates more folk instrumentation in general, while Viking Metal holds closer to its Black Metal roots.
B. Rammstein are Industrial, not Metal. I apologize, but I am severely anal about classification, whenever such things arise within the topic. It is not that I wish to classify every band, but rather that I wish for classification to be done correctly.
C. Immortal and Satyricon are Black Metal. (OR were. Immortal's last record incorporated a lot of thrash/heavy metal tendencies into the Black Metal style they are so well known for. Satyricon went more black n' roll in the middle of their career.)
I am extremely involved with the Metal genre as a whole. In fact, it is very much a lifestyle for me. Please do not be offended, if I have corrected you, or if I have come off as arrogant within the span of my post. I am very passionate about Metal and its various sub-genres and I live for it, as I am a Metal musician myself. Thank you.
For good Viking Metal, I would recommend Moonsorrow and early Vintersorg.
"What I want, Cloud, is to sail the darkness of the cosmos, with this planet as my vessel, just as my mother did before me." - Sephiroth
Yeah I explicitly said Satyricon aren't really Viking, though there is a fair amount of overlap between black and Viking metal since the latter evolved out of the former. There's a fair amount of overlap between folk and Viking metal as well, and it's worth noting that Moonsorrow have explicitly objected to being called a Viking metal band (due to the majority of their lyrics being unrelated to Vikings, though apparently they don't like the label 'folk metal' all that much either; the term they use to describe themselves is "epic heathen metal").
out of curiosity, Garland, which Falkenbach and Enslaved tracks were your favourites?
Last edited by The Man; 01-23-2009 at 07:50 AM.
Moonsorrow objecting to being labeled Viking Metal does not constitute them not being so. That is like saying if Slayer says their Reign in Blood record is not Thrash Metal, then it is not, and we both know that to be fallacious in every sense of the word.
Yes, there are some overlaps between Black Metal/Viking Metal and Viking Metal/Folk Metal, but they are not the same genres and are very easy to tell apart. They draw influence from one another, but are not inherently the same.
"What I want, Cloud, is to sail the darkness of the cosmos, with this planet as my vessel, just as my mother did before me." - Sephiroth
Claiming that they're "very easy to tell apart" strikes me as pretty ridiculous considering how many metal bands' categorisations are frequently disputed. Certainly for a newcomer to the genre they'd be rather difficult to tell apart, and even people who have been listening to metal for years frequently dispute the categorisations of bands, as demonstrated by this argument,
Most of Moonsorrow's lyrics really do have nothing to do with Vikings, which I would consider a major factor preventing them from being legitimately categorised as Viking metal. Simply including aspects of Norse mythology in their lyrics and playing a sound similar to that of several well-known Viking metal bands doesn't make them Viking metal; otherwise, bands like Wintersun or Nokturnal Mortum, to name two disparate examples, could be considered Viking metal as well. Besides, there really isn't all that much stylistically linking a lot of bands who generally get classified as Viking metal; for example, Amon Amarth are generally considered to be a Viking metal band, but if you took out the lyrics they'd be a pretty typical melodic death band. Viking metal is as much an ideological categorisation of music as it is a stylistic one, just as pagan metal is.
When any two people on the internet can agree on who fits what microcategory, then I'll bother honoring them. As far as I'm concerned, viking metal is metal about viking culture, and I don't aim to let it get more complicated than that.
I've finally finished listening to pretty much all of the albums, and I have to say I'm glad I saved Equilibrium for last. Sagas is insane, and Blut Im Auge has been on repeat for the last two days. Wingthors Hammer from Turis Fratyr is also amazing.
Equilibrium - Sagas - Blut Im Auge
Falkenbach - Magni Blandinn... - When The Ghallarhorn...
Einherjer - Blot - Venomtongue
Thyrfing - Valdr Galga - Valdr Galga (Phantom of the Opera?)
Enslaved - Enslaved - Midgards Eldar
Vintersorg - Hedniskhjartad - Norrland
So yeah, I think those are my favorite songs from each band. Equilibrium is a distant number 1. Einherjer is a solid number 2 nonetheless. Enslaved, Falkenbach and Thyrfing have one or two catchy songs each, and Vintersorg is good, but nothing yet stands out as song repeat material. What qualifies as good imo is a catchy sea shanty style melody with heroic overtones. Equilibrium does almost nothing but. There you have it - the Garland State of the Iphone address as of whatever today is.
Knock yourselves down.
Originally Posted by The Man
It is not ridiculous, in fact. Nine out of ten people I have met, who actually know their material, can easily differentiate between the genres. Lyrics are not what determines a bands genre, ultimately. It is the sound, and execution of that sound which defines a bands genre. Lyrical themes play a much smaller role. For instance, Unleashed have lyrics which have much to do with Vikings, but they are not a Viking Metal band. They are an old school Swedish Death Metal band. Moonsorrow are Viking Metal, because of their sound. As much as they would like to distance themselves from the label, it matters not. They play music which is stylistically defined as Viking Metal. And if you really want to get into it, much of Viking beliefs have to do with Pagan and/or Heathen beliefs. While certainly, Norse mythology and such things are prominent, the two can exist within one realm. Wintersun sound nothing like Viking Metal. In fact, they have much more to do with Melodic Death Metal. This is also where Folk Metal would come into play. They have more influences from Folk Metal than Viking Metal, simply because Jari was in Ensiferum, a premiere Folk Metal band (Not viking) I simply cannot understand where you would draw such a conclusion. But alas, you seem to believe that Amon Amarth are typically considered Viking Metal, which they are not. They are not considered Viking Metal by anyone who knows anything but the genre as a whole. They are labeled that by the mainstream audience because they do not know any better. They see Viking imagery and lyrics and automatically associate them with Viking Metal, which again, they are not. They are a Melodic Death Metal band, and it is as simple as that. Music is very much defined by the sound, and much less by lyrics. Lyrics are a much more superficial trait than sound, and that is another thing many metalheads will tell you. For instance, Slayer's lyrics have a lot in common with early Death Metal bands, but Slayer are and never were Death Metal, despite the fact that their sound influenced it in many ways. They are (or rather were) an LA Thrash Metal band. Lyrics do not define a band's genre. They take a backseat to music. Nokturnal Mortum really cannot be categorized as Viking Metal, even by their sound. They are primarily a Black Metal band with some symphonic and folk overtones. Not the same concept at all. Confusion often stems from the uneducated, forever sending labels and such into a spiral of even more confusion, simply because one person began to pass on false information and it is a chain reaction from there. That is how these confusions about labels start.
Hats off to you, for discussing this with me. I disagree with you entirely, but I appreciate you not becoming angry with me. Again, I do not wish to come off as arrogant, but this is a subject which I am very educated on. It is always interesting to have discussions such as these. Do not take anything I have said as personal.
"What I want, Cloud, is to sail the darkness of the cosmos, with this planet as my vessel, just as my mother did before me." - Sephiroth
So, if I understand right, if you replaced the lyrics of say, the Sagas album to say, all about Barbie and My Little Pony, but you kept the instruments the same, it'd still be Viking Metal? I believe you, of course. I don't think you're wrong. I think if you're right, then the means of classification is wrong, to an extent. I don't think lyrics are everything, but I do think they should count for more than they apparently do. When a song can be viking metal and have nothing to do with anything viking, or even scandinavian, there is something fundamentally wrong. The whole genre was invented, so to speak, out of pride of heritage. I think the heritage is as much a part of the genre as the use of bombastic keyboard fanfares. That's just my opinion, though.
EDIT: Amon Amarth do seem to be typically labelled Viking Metal, btw. They're listed as Viking Metal in the wikipedia list of Viking Metal bands, on the "others also bought" list on itunes when buying undeniable viking music, and when I was initially reading the web on this genre, I came upon a heated debate on whether Amon Amarth was Viking Metal, or Black Metal singing about vikings. That was one of the sources of my disillusionment with the idea of so many categories to begin with. I think they should be broader. If a person says: "I like Equilibrium. Can you recommend more viking metal?" and strict category adherence were followed, potential bands that the person probably would like would get passed up, most likely. Finntroll might not be viking metal to some, and the status of Amon Amarth varies with who you ask, but they're close enough to the general concept a person is looking for when they look for viking metal.
Last edited by Garland; 01-23-2009 at 11:40 PM.
Knock yourselves down.
I didn't say the lyrics didn't play any part whatsoever. What I said was they do not dominate classification, which they do not. That is just a fact. Musicality is the basis for classification. Also, wikipedia is not a reliable source for classification. Wikipedia is not a very reliable source for anything, honestly. A much more reliable source for genre classification would be: Metal-Archives.com. Bash the elitists who post there all you want. They are very educated people, aside from a few. Mainstream media sources, in general, know nothing of genre classification. What I have often found is that few in the mainstream sense understand anything regarding music, in general. It is the underground, in all sub-genres of music, which is the most educated on it, because they live and breath for it, unlike most mainstream listeners, who merely see it as entertainment. (And that doesn't mean all. Plenty of people can enjoy it just the same. This is just a general rule, based on my observations.) Trust me, when I say that I know what I am talking about. Not to put you down. You have displayed more knowledge than most people, who I have spoken with outside of the Metal scene. And yes, Finntroll are not Viking Metal. They are properly classified as Folk Metal. Amon Amarth aren't REALLY Viking Metal. I promise. They really aren't. Their lyrics are misleading. As I have stated, a lot of people do not understand that.
Again, I do not wish to come off as a know-it-all, but trust me when I say that I know what I speak of.
Regardless, musical classification tends to divide listeners a lot of times. I only discuss classification, when I feel terms are being improperly used.
"What I want, Cloud, is to sail the darkness of the cosmos, with this planet as my vessel, just as my mother did before me." - Sephiroth
I believe you. I know you know the system. Amon Amarth are black metal. Finntroll is folk metal. I would never think to disagree. I disagree with the very need for the system. IE: If I said: "In literal creationism, they believe the universe was created in six days," I would be right, whether or not you believe in literal creationism or not. You ARE correct in the classification of bands. I'm just saying it doesn't mean a thing. Music is music. I know you know the system. I think the system causes more problems than it remedies. People spend more time arguing about what genre a band fits in, when both people enjoy the music, rather than just enjoying the music. Amon Amarth is a good example. It doesn't matter if they're black metal or viking metal. They're cool. Same with Finntroll. That's my stance. I think a few broad categories might be useful, but I think, at least with metal (since I don't care much for other music to research it), there are too many insanely subtle subcategories that the only people who'd understand them are the people who don't need them. It'd be like Albert Einstein coming up with physics classifications for Stephen Hawking. Doesn't help the average Joe who needs it one bit. All the experts know the stuff w/o the labels.
Knock yourselves down.
CRADLE OF FILTH IS BLACK METAL!!!! aaaaaaaaaaaaRRRRRRRRRRGGGHHHH!!!! :shoot:
^But I agree with this^
I stopped caring what I was listening to a while ago, and decided that if it sounded good than I liked it. I don't remember what Amon Amarth is classified nowadays, but the song "Amon Amarth" is still great regardless.
Anon say I.
Well, I was pointing that out as well, if you notice. I was saying that I dislike the classification system as well, and that it is useless in the grand spectrum of things. I only wish that if it is going to be used, that it be used correctly, you know?
Amon Amarth are one of those Melodic Death Metal bands, who became popular during the MeloDeath wave in the 90s. Cool for them. They lasted out the trend. They are not my cup of tea, but it is cool that some people can enjoy them.
On that note, I believe my point has been made here. I am going to start a thread of my own.
"What I want, Cloud, is to sail the darkness of the cosmos, with this planet as my vessel, just as my mother did before me." - Sephiroth
Yes my point is that people new to the genres are going to have no idea what any of this crap means. Someone who's never listened to the genre can't tell the difference between black and death, let alone Viking and folk.
Uh, in many cases, yes they are. If a band doesn't deal with paganism in their lyrics, they aren't pagan metal. If a band doesn't advocate religious Satanism, they aren't orthodox black metal. If a band doesn't advocate national socialism, they aren't NSBM. If a band doesn't advocate anarchism, they aren't anarcho-punk. A lot of musical 'genres' are more an ideological grouping than they are a classification of a band's sound. No one's ever going to accuse Kroda of sounding anything like Branikald (even though they covered one of their songs), but they're grouped together due to their ideological beliefs, just as a number of bands who write about Vikings are grouped together due to their lyrical content.Lyrics are not what determines a bands genre, ultimately.
They sound just as much like Moonsorrow and Ensiferum as, say, Amon Amarth do; more, in fact.Wintersun sound nothing like Viking Metal.
I'll agree here, but so do Amon Amarth.In fact, they have much more to do with Melodic Death Metal.
False. Metal Archives may not list them as such, but their own official page states, "Official page of the Viking metal band. Includes a biography, news, show dates and photos." Several other sites classify them as Viking Metal as well; I can bring several up if need be.This is also where Folk Metal would come into play. They have more influences from Folk Metal than Viking Metal, simply because Jari was in Ensiferum, a premiere Folk Metal band (Not viking) I simply cannot understand where you would draw such a conclusion. But alas, you seem to believe that Amon Amarth are typically considered Viking Metal, which they are not.
I'll agree that in a lot of cases, the genre classification has nothing to do with lyrics. The distinction between death and thrash certainly has nothing to do with lyrics, as does the distinction between folk and black, or black and death. However, to say that Viking metal is not about lyrics is simply wrong. If a band does not deal with Vikings, they are by definition not Viking metal. They may be pagan metal, as Moonsorrow and nearly all Viking metal bands are. However, they are not Viking metal.They are not considered Viking Metal by anyone who knows anything but the genre as a whole. They are labeled that by the mainstream audience because they do not know any better. They see Viking imagery and lyrics and automatically associate them with Viking Metal, which again, they are not. They are a Melodic Death Metal band, and it is as simple as that. Music is very much defined by the sound, and much less by lyrics. Lyrics are a much more superficial trait than sound, and that is another thing many metalheads will tell you. For instance, Slayer's lyrics have a lot in common with early Death Metal bands, but Slayer are and never were Death Metal, despite the fact that their sound influenced it in many ways. They are (or rather were) an LA Thrash Metal band. Lyrics do not define a band's genre. They take a backseat to music. Nokturnal Mortum really cannot be categorized as Viking Metal, even by their sound. They are primarily a Black Metal band with some symphonic and folk overtones. Not the same concept at all. Confusion often stems from the uneducated, forever sending labels and such into a spiral of even more confusion, simply because one person began to pass on false information and it is a chain reaction from there. That is how these confusions about labels start.
This is ultimately all subjective, despite what you seem to believe, so I'm not going to argue about genres anymore. Your opinion is just that - an opinion. Frankly, metal listeners being unable to tolerate others' categorisations of metal bands is something that often puts non-metal listeners off the music, from what I've observed, so I'm not going to participate in this any further.
Metal listeners generally know far more about Metal classification than non-metal listeners. I listen to far more music than Metal, sir. When a band states they are a certain style of music, it does not make them right. Many bands poorly classify themselves, either in an attempt to distance themselves from a specific scene, or to pretend that they have done something more original than they actually have. And I will continue to state that music is defined primarily by musicality, and less by lyrics. The fact that you would even argue with me about such a thing is absurd. I never, at any point, said lyrics had nothing to do with it. I merely stated that they have far less to do with classification than does the music. That is simply a fact. Any educated musician, music listeners, etc... will tell you the same thing. Metal-Archives is a far more credible source than any website you can name to counter any such classifications. Many points you have just brought up, I have already answered, such as Amon Amarth being related to Melodic Death Metal. I have already said that, and they are, by definition, a Melodic Death Metal bands. Wintersun have some Folk tendencies, but they are Melodic Death Metal as well. I would associate Unleashed with Vikings over Amon Amarth, or Wintersun any day, but they are NOT Viking Metal, simply because their lyrics deal with such themes. They are Death Metal. And like I said, Ensiferum are not Viking Metal, simply because they would like to state themselves as such. A band like Judas Priest could call themselves Death Metal, but they would be wrong. That argument just does not hold any water. With that, I have made my points several times and I will take my leave of this thread. Good day, sir.
"What I want, Cloud, is to sail the darkness of the cosmos, with this planet as my vessel, just as my mother did before me." - Sephiroth
Bands do sometimes (maybe even often) miscategorise their work, but your belief that Viking metal is defined by a particular sound rather than lyrical content is not shared by all metal listeners. Some in the metal press, such as The Metal Observer (linking to Google cache since the site is currently moving servers), share my view of Viking metal being a more ideological grouping of bands than a stylistic one. In summary: your opinion is not law. The sooner you learn this the better for you.
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