Griever

[Serapy]

The displays of griever are very momentous. In most of the events, Rinoa + Squall = Displays of Griever.

You also see Griever after when Squall and Rinoa hugged, and then the game ends. In any game, what we see in the end is important. We saw Griever as the final thing of FF8.



compared to...



-Rinoa asked Squall if she could wear Squall's ring. Suspicious.
-Rinoa looked at the Griever when she was lost in Space, because of what reason? To keep good faith, after that, Squall has found her. Suspicious.
-there are so many more.

Griever is a symbolism, being a symbolism, there is so much to it.

This explains WHY Rinoa became very interested in Squall at the beginning of the game, automatically faniced him, automatically cared about him, regardless of his careless behaviours towards Rinoa. It's like Griever brings a good faith towards Rinoa and Squall.

-Rinoa was insane when she was possessed.
-When she was possessed, Rinoa always knew about the Griever thing, she knew it was very important to Squall.

Rinoa is Ultimecia at some point. When you fight against Ultimecia (remember Rinoa is insane when she is Ultimecia) and she manifested Griever out of Squall, all because of Rinoa's insanity. If it was Ultimecia, not Rinoa, then how did Ultimecia know that Griver exists in the mind of Squall? Unless he was possessed, but no, that didn't happen. Rinoa is the only person who has that knowledge, therefore she was the only one who manifested Griver out of Squall due to her insanity. At times when Ultimecia possessed Rinoa, Ulti did not acknowledge anything about the Griever thing but there are times that Rinoa has acknowledged about Griever and she wasn't possessed, so I doubt Ultimecia has took that 'Griever' knowledge from Rinoa and then manifested Griever.

CTSE.

[leader of mortals]

That picture is definently griever... everything else you said? NO!

[Tallulah]

Stop pretending to be FE, you! :rolleyes2

[Serapy]

Well, it makes sense to me. Otherwise, I'll be happy to acknowledge information from you people that could disprove my theory or the Griever being on the Moon.

[rubah]

griever is pretty much the only thing that could support r=u, but one piece of evidence isn't enough imo xD

(does anyone else refer to griever in the moon irl? Instead of the man in the moon, or whatever? I do xD)

[Kawaii Ryûkishi]

Well, it makes sense to me. Otherwise, I'll be happy to acknowledge information from you people that could disprove my theory or the Griever being on the Moon.

The burden of proof is on the person making the positive claim.

[Serapy]

When I said "disprove my theory with information", it can be either evidence based or not.

Rinoa: Hmm...so this L I O N of yours, does it have a name?

Squall: Of course. Griever.

Rinoa: So that's what you call it. You know Zell said he'll make me one
exactly like it. Who knows, maybe I can become like a lion, too. That'd
be crazy, huh!? I mean, everyone might, y'know, get the wrong idea
about us.

It implies that she actually likes the norm of Griever. At that time, she wasn't possessed, either. I don't recall any event that Squall has told Rinoa about Griever or implied things about Griever (strength and pride) WHILE she was possessed.
So, how did Ulti knew about Griever? She CAN'T manfiest Griever out of Squall WITHOUT knowing the existence of Griever in the first place, see what I mean? Rinoa IS the only person who knew about Griever, Squall even told her the name.
I don't think Ulti has the ability to read Squall's mind, so how? That's why my theory seem to make sense, Rinoa is Ultimecia and created Griever due to her insanity. I'm not saying it's TRUE but it seems very plausible to me.

In the game, when Rinoa was possessed, she went absolutely mad in the space station = insanity.
So if Rinoa is Ulimecia, she will become insane and creates Griever because she acknowledged Griever from Squall in the first place. Insanity = leads to unpredictable things.

There are a lot of evidences that Squall has careless attitudes against his friends, including Rinoa. Yet, as the story goes on, Rinoa always became on Squall's side, caring about him, loving him, etc. Does that sound odd? With my theory, it doesn't seem odd to me anymore.



She saw it, good faith has returned, after that event, Squall has found her. That's because of Griever, when she looked at Griever, she thinks of strength and pride, so she got good hope.

-------

Adel grabbed Rinoa.
Rinoa passed out.

When she woke up, this dialogue imploded:

Rinoa: I...was inside Adel... The young Adel...

and then Laguna said Ulti was inside Adel. That seems Suspicious.

You know, the whole event when Adel woke up. The monsters started fleeing from the moon. Yes, the moon where it symbolizes Griever. Seems Suspicious as well.



I wonder who is that? A new witch in the future? She has similar wings as Ulti, Edea and Adel. Shiva is naked, that woman in the picture also seems to be naked, hmm.

[Jessweeee♪]

Looks kinda like the the statue of Shiva in FFX o:

[Marky Tee]

i always thought griever should have been the ff8 emblem
not squall and rinoa huggin
would have been a more powerfull image i think

[Serapy]

It's plausible that TC has been done before the FF8 game, it's also plausible that what we see in FF8 is a compressed world.

Ultimecia wasn't not the only great sorceress in the whole generation, there were also great sorceresses (e.g. Great Hyne) before the FF8 gameplay's timeline, way long ago. Meaning, someone with great powers in that old generation might have used TC.

In regard of the Griever symbolism, it's not only that which made Rinoa interested in Squall, but TC also gave her Deja-Vu feelings towards Squall, coexisting the future timeline because of TC.

Time Travel exists in the world of FF8, Squall went back to the past of his childhood generation where he then met Matron. Squall told Matron about SeeD/Garden, when that timeline grows older, Matron then invented the garden and SeeD ideas.

Have you watched the movie called Deja Vu? At the end, Denzel smiled at her because he felt deja vu.

[Sir Bahamut]

If it was Ultimecia, not Rinoa, then how did Ultimecia know that Griver exists in the mind of Squall?

Ultimecia could compress and absorb space and time itself and create GF's out of thin air. As such, it is hardly a stretch to say that she was able to in some way scan Squall's mind and find the image of Griever.

In the game, when Rinoa was possessed, she went absolutely mad in the space station = insanity.
So if Rinoa is Ulimecia, she will become insane and creates Griever because she acknowledged Griever from Squall in the first place.

If Rinoa was mad only when possessed, and Rinoa IS Ultimecia, then that can't explain Rinoa becoming a mad Ultimecia because that would imply she was possessing herself in real time, which is absurd.

There are a lot of evidences that Squall has careless attitudes against his friends, including Rinoa. Yet, as the story goes on, Rinoa always became on Squall's side, caring about him, loving him, etc. Does that sound odd?

Not really. It's called being in love.

It's plausible that TC has been done before the FF8 game, it's also plausible that what we see in FF8 is a compressed world.

Not possible. The game clearly states that no one but Ultimecia could live in a time compressed world, so if someone else compressed time there's no way we could be playing the game we see. The very fact that we can play the game proves that TC never happened and never will happen in the entire history of the FF8 universe.

[Emery]

You tell'em! xD

[Serapy]

Glad to see you back, Sir B!

Ultimecia could compress and absorb space and time itself and create GF's out of thin air. As such, it is hardly a stretch to say that she was able to in some way scan Squall's mind and find the image of Griever.

That's the problem. Why has it to be Squall? Why is it only Squall that Ultimecia manifested of? Why can't it be someone else?
I'm sure there is a thing that is a lot stronger than Griever, why didn't Ultimecia create that? Why did she choose Squall, instead of someone else? I'm pretty sure that Squall wasn't THAT terrified of Griever either. So I think this whole thing has a special meaning...

If Rinoa was mad only when possessed, and Rinoa IS Ultimecia, then that can't explain Rinoa becoming a mad Ultimecia because that would imply she was possessing herself in real time, which is absurd.

Two same persons at the exact time is possible in the terms of Time Travel. For example, big Squall and small Squall presented at the same time. So why not Rinoa and Ultimecia as well? Ulti wanted to possess Rinoa to make changes, just like a time loop... it's hard to explain. It's like Squall telling Matron the ideas about SeeD/Garden in the past and then in the future, it all were invented.

Why did Squall want to kill Ultimecia? I think Squall wanted to do it, so Rinoa won't reach Ultimecia's powers in the future or he did it so Rinoa won't be no longer affected by Ultimecia. Rinoa told Squall that it won't change the fact that Ulti was born when she's defected. Rinoa is right, if Ultimecia is killed, Rinoa won't die.

For example, if small Squall killed big Squall, it won't affect small Squall in any way :x At that time, small Squall will be co-existing the new timeline... cuz the whole timeline of big Squall is gone.. since he died.

Not possible. The game clearly states that no one but Ultimecia could live in a time compressed world, so if someone else compressed time there's no way we could be playing the game we see. The very fact that we can play the game proves that TC never happened and never will happen in the entire history of the FF8 universe.

What about Great Hyne? I'm pretty sure she (or he?) has used TC or some other sort of same powers for other purpose.
The game stating that "no else but Ultimecia..." Well, how did the person know? He/she wasn't there when Great Hyne was alive, right?

As for "...there's no way we could be playing the game we see"
I think SquareEnix has decided to display the timeline as a game because it has most events (more momentous) than other timelines.

Sir B, since your website was either down or deleted, I've checked web archive and found your page, it's about the theory:

http://web.archive.org/web/200504031...ultimecia.html

So what changed your perspective by then? I'm curious.

[Sir Bahamut]

Yeah, I guess I kinda stopped coming here a while back; too many discussions about this stuff in a row I guess!

That's the problem. Why has it to be Squall? Why is it only Squall that Ultimecia manifested of? Why can't it be someone else?
I'm sure there is a thing that is a lot stronger than Griever, why didn't Ultimecia create that? Why did she choose Squall, instead of someone else?

Two reasons. Firstly, and most obviously, Squall was the leader of the group, so if she was going to target anyone first it would be him. Secondly, and more subtly, Ultimecia knew that Squall was supposed to kill him (i.e. that's what happens historically speaking). Recall Ultimecia saying "So you're the legendary SeeD destined to face me" to Squall. Ultimecia lives in the future, and given the magnitude of the events occurring in FF8, it seems pretty apparent that she knows that Squall was supposed to kill her (hence why she goes back in time to begin with, to stop fate).

So basically Squall was in every way the natural target for Ultimecia, and the fact that she chose to scan him and no one else shouldn't be that surprising.

Two same persons at the exact time is possible in the terms of Time Travel. For example, big Squall and small Squall presented at the same time. So why not Rinoa and Ultimecia as well?

That's different. The point I was trying to make was that whether or not Rinoa was mad while being possessed makes no difference to the R=U theory. If you want to explain why Rinoa might go mad, you'll have to find another way, because if you're explaining it by her getting possessed, you'd require Ultimecia to be possessing herself in the past all the time.

Why did Squall want to kill Ultimecia? I think Squall wanted to do it, so Rinoa won't reach Ultimecia's powers in the future?

I think he killed her because she was planning to compress and absorb all of time and space and become god...

What about Great Hyne? I'm pretty sure she (or he?) has used TC or some other sort of same powers for other purpose.
The game stating that "no else but Ultimecia..." Well, how did the person know? He/she wasn't there when Great Hyne was alive, right?

There's no record of Hyne using TC in the game.

As for that quote, the point it makes is that if someone compresses time, the only person who could exist in any meaningful sense would be the person casting it. Hence why when Ultimecia was planning to cast it, Rinoa and Edea stated that only Ultimecia could live in such a situation. This is understandable, seeing as TC would basically dismantle the timeline of the FF8 universe entirely.

So the fact that the timeline in FF8 IS NOT dismantled and messed up completely implies that it's not compressed, meaning no one ever completed TC in the past nor will anyone in the future.

Sir B, since your website was either down or deleted, I've checked web archive and found your page, it's about the theory:

http://web.archive.org/web/200504031...ultimecia.html

So what changed your perspective by then? I'm curious.

Lol, wow, that text is very old indeed. Please read the Time/Ultimecia Plot FAQ found here:

Final Fantasy VIII FAQs - Final Fantasy VIII Walkthroughs - Final Fantasy VIII Guides

It's the most up to date version. As for what changed my perspective? Time, and some very eminent debaters.

[Vyk]

Why is it always FFVIII that gets these threads? And where is Future Esthar? xD He'd cream his pants reading this..