Can you be Overated and Underated at the same time?

[Wolf Kanno]

The easiest example to think about is both the fact that Sephiroth is controlling Jenova with his mind and thus the "Sephiroth" you keep following is actually just Jenova. It seems somewhat obvious but the game never clearly states that's what's really going on. The fact the forum still gets fans who needs this explained to them is evidence it was not properly explained.

The other is the deal with the Sephiroth clones. The term clones is somewhat misleading, giving the impression from the dialogue that Cloud was made in a test tube (which is only half true) and the game really gives no thorough translation for what the Reunion/Clone experiment really is. The PSX version's explanation is rather vague and can be interpreted in many ways from its actual meaning. I don't think I caught the fact that the Sephiroth "clones" featured in the game were actually the survivors of the Nibelheim incident until a few years later cause I believe Hojo only mentioned it once.

It also made Clouds origins a bit fuzzy cause technically making a SOLDIER and "Sephy Clone" is the same process except for mental instability. This explanation is given to you in several paragraphs in the game; whereas I just explained it in a single sentence. If you play through the original PSX versions, their explanation is overly convulated and requires a few read throughs to understand what's really going on.

The PSX version has a pretty bad translation/localization. I hear the PC version released later cleared all this up though.

[RedPouch]

The easiest example to think about is both the fact that Sephiroth is controlling Jenova with his mind and thus the "Sephiroth" you keep following is actually just Jenova. It seems somewhat obvious but the game never clearly states that's what's really going on. The fact the forum still gets fans who needs this explained to them is evidence it was not properly explained.

It's true. When I first went through this game, I was completely confused about the "Sephiroth" that was walking around. Then I find out that he's been in the Northern Crater for the past several years despite the fact that you're following what appears to be him. I also didn't understand the random Jenova fights throughout the entire game. I had a hard time distinguishing if they were just replicates of Jenova or if every time you fight her, she just kept "coming back to life" more powerful than before.

The other is the deal with the Sephiroth clones. The term clones is somewhat misleading, giving the impression from the dialogue that Cloud was made in a test tube (which is only half true) and the game really gives no thorough translation for what the Reunion/Clone experiment really is. The PSX version's explanation is rather vague and can be interpreted in many ways from its actual meaning. I don't think I caught the fact that the Sephiroth "clones" featured in the game were actually the survivors of the Nibelheim incident until a few years later cause I believe Hojo only mentioned it once.

I was confused in this same manner when I first went through the game as well. I certainly didn't know that the Nibelheim survivors were "turned into" Sephiroth clones my first time going through. I only went through the game once, however it's pretty clear that if so many things are confusing and unclear after completing the game [with many fans], you can conclude that either the translation were poor, or the effort of the developers to convey the story through the game was poor.

Were it not for the fact that I read a "misconceptions" document a few years ago [which I think was just a summarized version of the Ultimania], I would never have understood any of this stuff. Of course, after learning it, now the game makes sense to me. But not every fan is going to know that there's such information out there that can clarify all of this, and from what I understand, most fans end up never learning about these things as Wolf Kanno said. It's ultimately the responsibility of poor translation and/or effort to convey the story on the developer's part, which is unacceptable to me. Even though FF VII is an old game, they still had 6 games prior to the Final Fantasy series alone to learn from their mistakes [not including other games they did as well, such as Chrono Trigger, etc.].

The PSX version has a pretty bad translation/localization. I hear the PC version released later cleared all this up though.

It did. I don't know very many people that actually have the PC version, though.

Final Fantasy VII is still a really great game which I really appreciate for its entirety. I admit that I really, really enjoyed this game a lot. I am trying to not let my appreciation for it be ruined by all the debate and nonsense coming from the Compilation, nor by unreasonable die-hard fans.

[VeloZer0]

Well that explains everything. I first played the PC version and understood everything the first time around. The doubled graphics resolution probably also helped my enjoyment of the game as well.

So I guess our respective opinions are almost formed around two different games.

[Dreddz]

I always like to pull this debate down to its simpliest form. Bad games don't get as popular as FFVII. You can call the game overrated but all your admitting is that the game isn't for you. I dunno why people even question FFVII's quality, seriously.

[RedPouch]

Bad games don't get as popular as FFVII.

World of Warcraft.

[Breine]

It's just one of those games that's made it so big (in the capacity that almost every gamer knows about it), that everyone just has their own opinion about it. Therefore underrated/overrated confusion begins, I guess.

[Rase]

Bad games don't get as popular as FFVII.

"Bad" is too subjective to really use as a debate point. Is Madden "bad"? How about Smash Bros, Halo, GTA, MGS, the Sims? You could argue either way on these and other franchises/games and get nowhere near definitively stating whether one if "good" or "bad".

You can call the game overrated but all your admitting is that the game isn't for you.

I don't think many will dispute that if they do not like the game it is not for them.

I dunno why people even question FFVII's quality, seriously.

For me it's simply a matter of refinement. To be honest I think FFVII's ideas like the Materia system were great concepts, but just were not refined to the point where they worked well in the game. Same goes for the games music. Had Square taken an extra year to work with the PSX hardware and keep tweaking the gameplay I would likely have a very different opinion of the game. I know that for them it was likely a bottom-line type thing where they wanted a maximum return on their investment, but my opinion remains the same.

And because I rudely forgot to respond to Khalin:

Although I agree, I think this isn't something you should bother poining out. RPG's aren't exactly known for their difficulty or challenge, Especially not Square's RPG's..

I still do not think this gives a pass to be as easy as I found FFVII. However, you are right in this respect, and I will happily level the charge at games I like (Golden Sun for example, or Etrian Odyssey). I simply wish more RPG developers made games that were not easy or difficult for grinding's sake, but rather where strategy and skill actually played heavily into important battles. Maybe I haven't played the right ones though.

[MJN SEIFER]

The easiest example to think about is both the fact that Sephiroth is controlling Jenova with his mind and thus the "Sephiroth" you keep following is actually just Jenova. It seems somewhat obvious but the game never clearly states that's what's really going on. The fact the forum still gets fans who needs this explained to them is evidence it was not properly explained.

Yes, I will openly admit that this confused me, and I saw many theories on the subject (some of them came close but never got it correct) - I also had some of my own theories on the matter, however I eventually found the correct one - but yeah, I agree this wasn't the best translation.

The other is the deal with the Sephiroth clones. The term clones is somewhat misleading, giving the impression from the dialogue that Cloud was made in a test tube (which is only half true) and the game really gives no thorough translation for what the Reunion/Clone experiment really is. The PSX version's explanation is rather vague and can be interpreted in many ways from its actual meaning. I don't think I caught the fact that the Sephiroth "clones" featured in the game were actually the survivors of the Nibelheim incident until a few years later cause I believe Hojo only mentioned it once.

Aside from "Sephiroth" saying that Cloud was constructed "piece by piece", (which was clearly to confuse him, and make him lose control of himself) I never really noticed that. I'll admit I didn't know what the clones where my first playtrhough, but I knew Cloud was "real". On my second playthrough I suspected (not knew) the clones may have been human originally, because of the man in Sector 5 (he has a tattoo and has gone by the time you can return to Midgar), but I still wasn't sure. I can't remember if Hojo mentions that the clones are the Nibelheim survivors, but I came to that conclusion on my 3rd or 4th playtrhough - I explored Nibelheim and noticed that the clones, although clones actually behave the same way as they do in the flashbacks - talk to them and you'll see what I mean, two of them are a dead give away!

It also made Clouds origins a bit fuzzy cause technically making a SOLDIER and "Sephy Clone" is the same process except for mental instability. This explanation is given to you in several paragraphs in the game; whereas I just explained it in a single sentence. If you play through the original PSX versions, their explanation is overly convulated and requires a few read throughs to understand what's really going on.

Well they had to do it like that for suspence (that's what I thought, I could be wrong), I always got it, the only part I didn't understand was how Cloud "remembered" the things that he wasn't present for (like Sephiroth getting angry at the reactor and slashing everything) - I later found another scene that is hidden, and on another playthrough saw a line where Cloud says he heard a story from Zack, I also think that a member of this forum verifyed it.

So, I personally didn' miss to much, but It's probably because I have "attention to detail" with things I am interested in, though I supose if the translation was better I would have got it the first playthrough and not 2nd or 3rd yes?

The PSX version has a pretty bad translation/localization. I hear the PC version released later cleared all this up though.

I have seen the obvious translation errors such as "This guy are sick", "Off Course" and the "Fool them/Fooled them" line (for those of you wondering the mistake is that the lines got said in the wrong order - "That's how you fooled them" should have come first, "That's how you'll fool them" should have come second) I hear a few items, and mosters where badly translated too, again this is something I don't know enough about, but am interested in finding more about.

I had a thread which discussed all the poor translations in FF games called "Translation Facination" a while back, I really had fun with that thread, but it's dead now - I'm thinking of creating another one one day, because the old one will be far too old for a revival now.

I hope this reply is ok.

[The Turk]

The "fool them" "fooled them" line doesn't make sense no matter what order you say it it.

"That's how you fool them."
"That's how you fooled them."

"That's how you fooled them."
"That's how you fool them."

It's a typo. It should say something like "so that's how you'll fool them?" As Cloud hadn't fooled anybody at all by that point.


Yeah the Jenova/Sephiroth thing is confusing. I do kind of like it that way though.

The Nebelhiem residents being the Sephiroth drones isn't really explained, though there is that scene where Cloud meets the two kids he met 5 years ago who have now been turned into the "clones." Of course that bit of dialogue is easily avoided and you won't even pick up on it had you not spoke to them in the flashback.


I don't think you can ever call this game underrated. Harshly criticised? Yes, but underrated? Not imo as the general feeling among critics is that it's great.

[Bolivar]

I always like to pull this debate down to its simpliest form. Bad games don't get as popular as FFVII. You can call the game overrated but all your admitting is that the game isn't for you. I dunno why people even question FFVII's quality, seriously.

Woah woah woah woah woah

The Backstreet Boys sold rediculous amounts of albums, that doesn't make them more innovative than Led Zeppelin.

Vanilla Ice and MC Hammer sold millions of records, that doesn't make them better rappers than Nas or Kool G Rap.

That's why I think you need to look at the critical acclaim, too. I feel that metacritic averages and commercial sales on their own don't say anything about the quality of something, but when taken with eachother they can give you a good indication.

But even then you still have things like Halo.

So I think those two are a good basis for FFVII's quality, coupled with just how revolutionary it was considered by journalists and fans.

I love this game.

[The Turk]

Backstreet Boys, MC Hammer and Vanilla Ice while not great musical artists were all good at what they did, though obviously Hammer and Ice were pretty much one hit wonders.

Yes the Backstreet Boys sang cheesy dumb pop songs, but obviously lots of people like cheesy pop songs why wouldn't they keep making songs like that?

[G13]

I don't get it. My faith in humanity is lost. VII overrated? How dare you all. :Eek:

I'm may be considered a fanboy, but I don't care. VII was the second FF I ever played (X being the first) and that's how I got hooked to the FF franchise, and RPG's in general. To me VII has the most epic and continuable storyline of all of them (Not like X-2 *yeesh*). Everything about it captivated me, and to see that it didn't do that for others is shocking. :mog:

[The Crystal]

The word "overrated" lost it meaning a long time ago. Today, "overrated" is just a synonymous to "it's bad" or "it's sucks".
Most people use it, as just another form of insult.

[nik0tine]

Paradoxes are impossible. I love FF7 but it is definitely an overrated game.

[MJN SEIFER]

The "fool them" "fooled them" line doesn't make sense no matter what order you say it it.

"That's how you fool them."
"That's how you fooled them."

"That's how you fooled them."
"That's how you fool them."

It's a typo. It should say something like "so that's how you'll fool them?" As Cloud hadn't fooled anybody at all by that point.

I didn't realalize it said "you" on both times so thanks for pointing that out. Yes, "that's how you'll fool them" is how I believe the line should go, refering to Cloud's upcoming disguise (he will "fool" them not only into him being a girl, but also that he is "interested in them") Either way it is far better IMHO than the PC remake of that scene - which seams too much like a fan translation.

Yeah the Jenova/Sephiroth thing is confusing. I do kind of like it that way though.

So do I - it adds replay value and a bit of mystery to the game - not Square's intention I guess, as there would be no need for Ultimania.

The Nebelhiem residents being the Sephiroth drones isn't really explained, though there is that scene where Cloud meets the two kids he met 5 years ago who have now been turned into the "clones." Of course that bit of dialogue is easily avoided and you won't even pick up on it had you not spoke to them in the flashback.

The kids are the "dead give away" I mentioned. I suppose it is easily avoided, but I always talk to everyone I can before I do what I have to, even if I know where I'm going -I'm often facinatied by how much there is in RPGs and will often talk to random people to see what "script" they have. So I natually found the kids and that is what gave it away for me. Note that Cloud's expression changes when he "talks" to the those particular clones -it's almost like like he's saying "I know who they are..." He also seams like he expresses some despair over them being clones, so maybe theres another connection I don't see (or perhaps he just realizes even children are being experiemented on now.) It is body language that people often miss in FF games (Not that you are one of those people) - a classic example is the orphanage in FFVIII.

So yeah, the clones aren't explained in full, but In my opinion it didn't really need to be, but that's me I guess.