Is Vayne Solidor evil?

[Sefie1999AD]

I believe (SPOILER)he ordered the judges to destryo Mt. Bur-omisace and kill the grand kiltias. Sounds like an atrocity to me.

Ah, yeah. I thought something like that happened in the game. It definitely made the Empire seem more "evil", though there's another interesting point as well. I always thought Archades was a fascinating city, and visiting the city showed me that even if the Empire is evil, that doesn't mean their citizens are.

[DarkMateria]

Yeah, that is a good point, i noticed that too, the citizens seem like ordinary, if not snobbish people. I don't think the empire is "evil" like most people, they have their own views and ways of doing things. Some other coutries think america is evil, it's all your point of view. We have also comitted some atrocities that i think are pretty damn bad.(Hiroshima)

[Marky Tee]

Vayne is like a handsome version of Adolf Hitler..

i dnt think he was quite that bad

[Skyblade]

Quoting myself from a previous thread:

Actually, Vayne's duplicitous nature in his political dealings surfaces long before the speech in Rabanastre. Have you guys forgotten his performance for Reks? He made an extremely well crafted act that would allow him to kill a monarch and claim total sovereignty over a kingdom, with a minimum amount of the blame falling on himself. He was, after all, merely bringing a regicide to justice and stepping in to bring order to a country that had lost its ruler. He then has Marquis Ondore announce the death of Princess Ashelia in another excellent ploy to both solidify his own position and undercut his opponents. Ashe is cut off from her birthright, being unable to reclaim her crown without proof, Marquis Ondore can be blackmailed into silence, and Vayne can gain control of Dalmasca with a minimum of friction, since there are supposedly no surviving members of its royal family. He then moves in to become consul of Rabanastre, a move which he admits he had to wait for much longer than he had wanted. This allows him to give a lovely speech to win over the people of Rabanastre (and during that entire speech, I was thinking "wow, this guy knows how to play up to a crowd") and lure the Resistance into a trap. His next political moves are towards the Gran Kiltias, who becomes a threat, since he had the power to confirm Ashe's identity, pass information on to the Rozzarians and to Larsa, and shelter a good many of his enemies. So he has his forces move on Mount Bur-Omisace and kill the Gran Kiltias and reclaim Larsa. His entire career from the beginning has been filled with acts of treachery and cunning. He uses political maneuverings to divide his foes and weaken their support systems, while strengthing his own power base. His actions at home are much the same. First he kills his older brothers, then his father. He places the blame for his father's death on the Senators, the only real opponents to his power left in Archadia, thus removing them from the playing field and securing power for himself. While I have not yet finished the game (I'm heading to the Draklor Laboratories after the death of the Gran Kiltias), even at this point I have yet to see any action by Vayne that is not an attempt to increase his own power base. He didn't suddenly become a villain, he has quite clearly been one from the very beginning.

Where do you get "good guy" from any of that?

Oh, and I have gotten further in the game, and he has yet to become any less villainous.

[Namelessfengir]

this runs along the same lines as my sig. logical and ruthless he probably could have talked his way out of anything if (SPOILER)he hadnt turned into a giant critter

[Big D]

Vayne was 'evil' from the moment he started using violence to usurp both nations and individuals. He was willing to have a lot of innocent people killed, including his truly righteous compatriots like the noble Judge Drace, which lands him firmly in 'villain' territory.

[The Unknown Guru]

Ooh. A place to express my views. *drools*

SPOILERS THROUGHOUT. You have been warned.

Ok, here's the rub: Vayne's motivations are quite justified. It's just that his methods are screwed up. All he really wanted was to free humanity from the control of the Occurians. He just had to go through a lot of obstacles to accomplish this goal, and he certainly didn't mess around. That's the issue: whether his motivations or his methods determine his 'evilness'. I personally think it's his methods. Slaughtering a community of refugees is definitely an evil act. Framing someone for killing a king is an evil act. Actions, not purposes, define good and evil.

However, there is one variable: Venat. It is completely an open question as to whether Venat is evil or not. All that's definite is that he opposes the Occurians' mucking about with the mortal realm AND tapping into his power drives you insane. It's rather obvious that Venat is the source of Vayne's motivation, but whether it was Venat's influence or Vayne's own decision to commit evil acts is open to interpretation.

Basically, it all depends on your definition of evil. I think he was evil because I define evil by actions taken. You might think differently. Any interpretation is equally valid.

[Skyblade]

Vayne's "motivations", as far as I can tell, are world domination. He may be freeing the world from the Occuria's tyranny, but he's not exactly planning on relinquishing his world-wide empire once he does that. He may be fighting against bad guys, but that does not automatically make him a good guy, or give him good motivations.

[Big D]

But by "freeing the world from the Occuria's tyranny", all he's really doing is letting the Occuria use him (and his power and greed) as a tool for their own in-fighting.

[Omni-Odin]

I love this argument!!! Vayne is evil. He is a warrior turned politician. He spent his life working for a goal of power. The fact that he has a loving little brother eludes to him being a caring individual. It's when he came to true power that he had politicians whispering in his ear about what to do (Cidolfus Demen Bunansa) and how to retain that power. The true evil is Venat, but for every gun, there is a bullet to act through and that happened to be Vayne.

[Wolf Kanno]

I'm a bit with The Unknown Guru on this, but only as far as to say it depends on your personal interpretation of morality and what constitutes as good and evil.

As someone with what you would call a "flexible sense of morality" I can't say Vayne is really evil, despite allowing action that resulted in the death of many; its difficult to argue against the fact that the world is a better place because of him.(SPOILER) He masterminded the defeat of the Occurians and left the political situation of Archades in a state that would allow the moderate and peace loving Larsa to do as he pleases unmolested by the more hard line members of the Ministry of Law and the power hungry Senate.

I could only imagine how his actions may have inadvertently caused great political reform in Rozzario as well. Vayne's actions saved Archades and to some extent the world, regardless of whether his intention was to do so. This is something you really can't say about any other antagonist in the series.

Personally though, this does bring me up to one of the few story issues I did have about Vayne. Playing through the title, I really felt as if Vayne purposely did everything for the benefit of Archades and Larsa. His actions and his methods always struck me as an act. Like he purposely chose to play the role of the megalomaniac in order to set up Larsa as the new ruler. He removes his political enemies; and despite several attempts to thwart his plans, Vayne never seems to try and stop Larsa's movements or even kill him considering Larsa is his only remaining political rival. We know Vayne has it in him to do it so why doesn't he?

Larsa is definetly headstrong and intelligent but its obvious his naivety would always allow his political enemies to get the better of him, whereas Vayne is already a veteran of the political system and has the will to do what he knows his innocent brother could not lest he become just like himself. I really feel Vayne tried not only to protect Larsa's innocence and good nature but also to nurture his sense of justice (it should be noted that the Solidor family has deep ties with the Ministry of Law) and conviction by playing the role of the tyrant villain.

I really felt the writer intended for Vayne to be a tragic hero, but something happened in the production (like the mastermind of the project quitting) and the writer decided to write him as the atypical JRPG villain during the last battle. Its this last battle that smurfs up my reasoning cause Vayne basically does become a power hungry "god complex" villain with characteristics that are completely unfamilair of anything we've seen. We're talking smooth and calculating villain suddenly becoming like Kefka or Kuja literally between a cutscene and there is an inconsistency with the rest of the script concerning this. Throw in the fact that the whole final dungeon and last battle comes off really forced and unpolished. The whole thing reeks of a rush job in my opinion.

At least this is just my original view of him. I need to replay the game eventually to freshen my memory. Overall, I don't feel Vayne is evil but I can't say he's good either. Its why I have a difficult time saying he's a villain, he's more like an antagonist.

[oddler]

Vayne Solidor was lawful evil.

[Future Esthar]

What about Raithwall guys?
If Vayne is evil then it would no less make sence that Raithwall is because with the help of the Ocurria he created an empire.But since "O my God,Ashe(hero) is his descendant and is good and Dalmasca are such poor guys" the guy is seen as some hero.

Of course this made the people think that the Ocurrians are gods and Venat was somekind of a Lucifer.(duh)

In fact I don´t believe they are fighting ever.They are dumbing people to achieve higher power.

Vayne is evil but not the true villain of FFXII (we also fight Venat in the end isn´t it? Not just Vayne).

[Wolf Kanno]

I don't think anyone is really saying Raithwall wasn't bad. Hell, the journey Lady Ashe takes practically reveals that the Dynast-King was nothing more than a puppet to the Occurians not to mention the overwhelming power of the Nethicite we see in the game sorta changes any ideas of a benevolent victory he may have. I'm pretty certain Raithwall wiped out his rivals with overwhelming force, killing innumerable people, and creating an empire based on fear.

I did wish we had a chance to really learn more about the Occurians though.

[Future Esthar]

The Occurians are not Gods but the souls of a single man.
This man is the True villain of FFXII.

I think Lord Larsa already realized who is this Villain.