Nobuo Uematsu VS Yasunori Mitsuda

[Fynn]

Counter-counter-argument time! XD

Oh, right; forgot the whole "collaboration" thing that occurred in the FFX soundtrack. Point for you. My aforementioned opinions on the tracks in question still stand, but some of the blame can be removed from Uematsu. Looking over the Wiki article on the soundtrack, I find it somewhat surprising that "Run!!" was not written by Uematsu; it seemed to have his distinct "flavor" about it. Well, at least someone is able to approximate it fairly well . . .

Run actually struck me as one of the least Uematsu-sounding themes. It was still good, though. Ironically, it was one of the best "run"-tracks I have ever heard

Neither Xeno soundtrack is at all comparable to the Chrono counterparts, so Xenosaga I (beyond its extremely high production value, what with the London Symphony Orchestra) is unlikely to alter your opinion on the matter.

I heard some of the tracks on youtube and found something that I actually liked. There's this track in 'Gears that plays in the beginning FMV and when exploring all those super-ancient ruins, finding out stuff about the source of all life, etc... And I noticed that it's the same as one of the opening tracks of 'Saga, albeit a bit more electronic. And I actually liked this reference, 'cause that was one of those tracks that give you this eerie feeling, make a bit uneasy, but you still want to see more...

Hell, a third is using some serious hyperbole. I count ten tracks of the total sixty-four that are credited to Uematsu, and none of them aside from "Sealed Door" are anything I would describe as "profound". Mostly his contributions to the soundtrack include the catchy, percussive themes that occur at particularly energetic points during the plot ("Bike Chase", "Burn! Bobonga!", "Tyran Castle" -- which does rule -- "Primitive Mountain", etc.). Uematsu's contributions are sizable, granted, but in this project Mitsuda is most definitely the soliloquy actor, and Uematsu the stage hand. Uematsu was merely brought in to compensate for Mitsuda's declining health during production, but the meat of the score was already in place, and it already included the musical power for which Mitsuda was thereafter known. Uematsu cannot touch "Corridors of Time", "Battle with Magus", "Undersea Palace", "To Far Away Times", etc. etc. ad infinitum, and therefore he cannot claim anything but a peripheral role in the fusion of the musical and dramatic storytelling brilliance that is Chrono Trigger.

Alright, I exaggerated. But still, like you said yourself, some of his contributions to this OST are really great. And I never said he was better than Mitsuda on this one - this is Mr. Yasunori's game, while Nobuo Uematsu (along with Noriko Matsueda ) is merely a guest. All the tracks you've listed are truly masterpieces of this game.

God. :laugh: So you cannot only stand to listen to the suffering of those strings from the beginning to 0:15 of "Gale" and that damned blues organ which takes over the background thereafter, but you approve of it? :Eek: "The Brink of Death" was considerably better, I grant you, but nothing on Uematsu's better efforts in the same area.

Hell yeah, I approve! Gale had this eerie rythm, haunting strings and an organ that makes you wanna dance! It's definitelly one of a kind To top it off, it practically ditches the major-minor scheme for a more jazzy harmony style.

Eh, "Viper Manor" earns my approval for that reason, but "Gale" was actually considerably less an aggravating listen in Radical Dreamers. *_*

I don't see how. I found the MIDI they used in Chrono Cross far better than the sounds from the SNES. And I agree with you about Viper Manor.

*Nod* Uematsu is definitely the better man when it comes to melding the moods of camaraderie and crisis into a single "basic battle" track. Even the FFX "Battle Theme" (which I actually did enjoy :laugh:; something about following that bassline around) managed this considerably better than Mitsuda's "Battle 1" from CT or "Gale" from CC. Mitsuda is a "battle to save the universe" man, and less a "battle to kill the insignificant minions" man.

You're, like, Mr. Reverse! How can you hate Gale and like X's battle theme?! It's just boring, mundane and sounds as if it was done on one keyboard during a wedding party in the country! It's like bad disco! I have to agree that Mitsuda's final battle tracks are outstanding, but I still feel like you're not giving Uematsu enough credit in this area. Neo X-Death, Dancing Mad, One-Winged Angel, The Extreme... All are powerful, powerful tracks... Need I say more?

Demon! :Eek: Back -- back from this holy place!

Seriously, though, I have never heard the Uematsu track that is more tranquil with a sense of beautiful simplicity than "Home Village Arni" (which, ironically, is not at all a simple piece of music), more an exotic, romantic reference to past glory than "Time's Grasslands - Home World", more an ominous anxiety before a threat that has no name but merely the form of ruin than "Ancient Dragon's Fort", more horrifying in its bleak simplicity than "Dead Sea - Tower of Ruin", more a tale of a vaguely familiar world that one regrets being a part of than "Chronopolis" (a piece plagiarized time without measure by less imaginitive composers ), etc, etc. I am not familiar with Uematsu's entire body of work (I possess the FFVII, Advent Children, and FFX soundtracks, and have heard decent portions of VIII), but what I have heard is largely fare of a shallower quality than that which Mitsuda prepares.

The Chrono universe is a considerably richer one than your basic Final Fantasy world as far as detail of plot and storytelling are concerned, and the complex themes of Mitsuda's music communicate this quite clearly. Chrono Cross, for instance, is not so simple as the "we have a clear enemy; we do not need to understand Sephiroth but we must stop him and we are justified in doing so" theme of FFVII (which is a brilliant storytelling method in its way), or the relatively shallow morality and romance-sacrifice issues confronted in FFX. CC, to examine a single facet thereof, deals with a protagonist confronted by multiple forces -- those forces, both ruthless and impassioned, that regard his very existence as a destructive abomination that should be reversed if possible, eliminated if necessary, and those quieter, more personal forces, both naïve and wise, that wish him to remain alive for one reason or another. We, as the player, witness the comparatively simple and "noble" actions conducted by the protagonists in Chrono Trigger brought to involuntary ruin by the protagonist of Chrono Cross -- such poetic irony as is wrought by the scenes in the Dead Sea is very much a finer, more twisted synthesis of intellect and sentiment than what your usual Final Fantasy title must produce for its target audience.

OK, first of, I think you're getting a bit ahead of yourself, because we're talking about music here (I think I'm mainly saying this because I think I'd have to agree with you about the whole atmosphere and story thing, but where's the fun in a discussion like that? ) I did exaggerate when saying I didn't like his area tracks - the ones you listed (besides Home Village Arni) are good, but I just must have forgotten about them. The area tracks I meant were stuff like Hydra's Swamp and Gaea's Navel. Most of the less important area tracks seemed to lack imagination... I once again turn to FFVI (Play the game! You're missing out on a LOT!)for an example of how I like my "normal" area tracks. Mystic Forest and Phantom Train - even though the former is reused quite a bit, it never seems to get old. The eerie, yet soothing melody fit's the dungeons just so well, that you almost blend with the game. The music on the train is what I think FFVI is all about - grotesque! Comical, yet a bit scary, dark, twisted. Another track comes to mind - I don't remember the name, but it's the one that played in the first cave (and many other cave after that) you entered in FFVII. It starts of quietly, gently, but later on there's this part which is pracically dissonance after dissonance, and yet it doesn't make you flinch or anything - it gives you a feeling of uneasiness, such that you would undoubtedly have while exploring a mysterious, dark cave. The area tracks you've listed and I liked are all important area tracks. I guess for Mitsuda it's the same with the area tracks as it is with the battle themes - he tries a lot for the important ones, but seems to lack imagination for the small ones. I don't really think that's a good thing - a balanced soundtrack is a good one, IMO...

Thoroughly disagreed, but I enjoy the discussion. In all fairness, Uematsu has done some wonderful atmospheric work in his time; FFX in particular, what with samples like "Guadosalam", "Besaid", "Movement in Green", etc. is one of his stronger efforts.

*sigh* Sadly, you once againg gave the wrong examples. Guadosalam is Nakano's most prominent (IMO) contribution to X's soundtrack, while Besaid is by Masashi Hamauzu (another awesome VGM composer, who doesn't seem to get enough credit, seeing as he wasn't even considered for a debate during the creation of this thread )

Depends entirely on whether a track title must explicitly name a character to be considered a "character theme" in your opinion. The essence of a character's personality and aura can be woven into many aspects of a soundtrack, provided that the characters and music are of sufficient strength. Magus' theme in Chrono Trigger, for instance, takes many forms, even going as far as to become the "theme" of the Zeal Royal Family ("Schala's Theme", "Zeal Palace", and "Undersea Palace" all bear variations of the same melody). Could "Orphan of the Flame" be considered "Lynx's Theme" on the merit of its tones of ruthless power, or must the word "Lynx" be etched into the title?

I do NOT mean be name - I did mention Star-Stealing Girl, didn't I? I never said Mitsuda did not exploit leitmotiffs - I just think Nobuo does it better. He has composed for a lot of video games now, and I think one really needs to play (or at listen to their soundtrack) to be able to see his genius in creating recurring themes.
I never considered Orphan of Flame to be Lynx's theme. It plays in one scene, and I know Lynx plays a large role in it. However, I always thought of it as another theme for Kid - for saving her, since that was all that scene was about (and the title matches - Orphan? Of Flame?). Lynx was present and all, but I felt this track had more to do with Kid than with anyone else.

"One Winged Angel" for president! :frust:

Don't really agree... I mean, it is a great final boss track, but it's not really what I'd consider The King of all Final Battle Tracks. I do enjoy it a lot, but I think it gets far too much credit than it deserves...

Negative. Sounds intriguing, though.

See above.

Oh, fully concurred. It is not these criteria of what constitutes a "brilliant soundtrack" that is the source of our disagreement, but rather our estimates of the brilliance of the soundtracks involved, which is the best basis for discussion in matters like this. ^_^

At least we agree about something

Hell, no one could claim such a thing. :laugh: Uematsu indeed epitomizes an unusual combination of high quality and great quantity.

You learn quick

Again, negative. Was unaware that Uematsu had done any independent work, really. Interesting.

It is. It shows you how different stuff he can compose when he's not thinking Final Fantasy (althoug the album contains a remix of the series' anthem, it has a completely different feel to it that that heard in the games). You really should check it out.

Hm. Well, that is a legitimate opinion, but I am inclined to believe that Mitsuda struck his stake into the video game music industry at a virtually unparalleled height, arguably improved upon it in Chrono Cross, but has unfortunately been unable to maintain such a prodigious and unreasonable altitude on non-Masato Kato projects. Hopefully that is the only issue, and Mitsuda will rise again on a hypothetical third canon Chrono installment.

Like I said before - the Chrono series are "his" games. They wouldn't be the same without his music, this is not merely an opinion, but a fact. They are all beautiful soundtracks and have made their respective games into what they are. None can deny, that both Trigger and Cross (although less so) were very influential games. However, I still believe Nobuo has had a far greater influence in video game music, spreading even wider than that. I share your hopes that Mitsuda may one day rise again. I do like his music. There's just something in Uematsu's that's close to my heart...