Nobuo Uematsu VS Yasunori Mitsuda

[Turkish Delight]

Who is the superior composer? Discuss.

While Uematsu is awesome, Mitsuda's work in the Chrono games is unparalleled.

[Vice Nebulosa]

God, I just saw this thread, and felt (with an embarrassing quantity of haste and excitement ) that I had to cast in my lot with Mitsuda before . . . I don't know -- before any more universal decay took place, or something. :laugh:

Anyway, one humble vote for Yasunori Mitsuda. Mitsuda for President -- for King, perhaps. *Listens dispassionately to cries of "You don't vote for kings!", followed shortly by a gunshot* You know what, Mitsuda for God.

To briefly discuss the choice being made here, these are two composers with extremely disparate styles and resumés who, while they both endeavor to cover the wide range of moods necessitated by a high-end RPG soundtrack, undeniably specialize in certain areas. Uematsu, for example, really shines when it comes to the standard battle themes that are not necessarily the "epic final battle tracks" (an area where, I find, Mitsuda rarely finds the ideal balance between complexity and ferocity, with the odd exception such as "Fuse" from the Xenogears soundtrack, or, at least for a while, "Battle" from Xenosaga I). Oh, Mitsuda is brilliant as far as the godlike battles are concerned ("Battle with Magus", "World Revolution", and "Dragon God" from the mainstream Chrono soundtracks), but his basic battle tracks ("Battle 1" from Chrono Trigger, and "Gale" and "The Brink of Death" -- technically a boss battle track, but fairly common -- from Chrono Cross), which one spends a decent portion of the game listening to looping ad infinitum, tend to lack the fluidity with which Uematsu constructs his battle themes. "Fighting" from the FFVII soundtrack is a damned addictive piece that I do not particularly mind hearing for extended periods of time, whereas Chrono Cross' "Gale" gets rather annoying. *_*

Uematsu and Mitsuda are able to share a similar pedestal of glory in terms of the epic battle themes, methinks, as tracks like "One Winged Angel" (preferably the Advent Children version, but anything fully orchestrated will do) and, to a lesser extent, "Fight With Seymour", are able to hold their own against Mitsuda's counterparts in virtually any comparison.

That being said, Mitsuda's overwhelming advantage is in the eloquent speaking of a language in which Uematsu merely dabbles. Mitsuda is an atmospheric composer, whose ruthless precision and skill positively blazes in immersive environmental pieces and profoundly sentimental tragedy/farewell tracks. Certainly Uematsu can elicit an emotion from the player (I would cite "Wandering" from the FFX soundtrack as among his best despondent tracks that also creates an ambience in the in-game environment), and he has plenty of experience in wielding the piano and individual strings/woodwinds as a minimalist approach to capturing emotional drama. However, nothing in his impressive body of work that I am aware of can do more than flutter beneath the soaring beauty of Mitsuda once the latter decides to mock your composure and manipulate your emotions like the instruments he commands. "Corridors of Time", "Chrono Trigger (part 2)" and "To Far Away Times" from the Chrono Trigger soundtrack, and "Life ~ Faraway Promise", "Time of the Dreamwatch", and "Dream's Creation" from Chrono Cross are some of the most profoundly evocative, influential pieces of music I have heard to date, and no other composer -- from any genre or era, forget Nobuo Uematsu -- has exceeded him on those terms in my eyes.

It is a shame that the Xenosaga I soundtrack fails to really measure up to Mitsuda's earlier work. If he ever gets his hands on the London Symphony Orchestra again, here's hoping that it is on a thoroughly recharged battery of inspiration for the third canon installment of the Chrono series.

Did it again. Just so everyone is aware, I do not begin these posts with the explicit intention of embarking on a prolonged ranting rampage. Just tends to happen. But a Mitsuda rave is needed sometimes.

[Jessweeee♪]

I haven't played the Chrono games, so I guess I can't really say which I think is better. I will say that the FFX soundtrack is awesome.

[Vice Nebulosa]

I haven't played the Chrono games, so I guess I can't really say which I think is better.

Depends, really. Have you heard any of the music from the Chrono series, or have you never touched the games in any capacity?

I know I listened to the Chrono Cross soundtrack before I acquired the game itself, and it was one of those things that one partially approves of, and partially regrets. Of course, such a gem of a soundtrack unconsciously served to raise my expectations for the game far higher than any PS1 title could hope to fulfill, so it diminished the eventual gaming experience fairly significantly. It was downright appalling to learn that they gave the incomparable "Time of the Dreamwatch" a mere filler role after the opening title sequence. :frust: And this in addition to learning that Magus was only to make a cameo appearance. Very much an object of love and hate, Chrono Cross. :laugh:

I will say that the FFX soundtrack is awesome.

Interesting choices. Just as a matter of personal opinion, I only really liked "Fight With Seymour" ("Final Meeting With Seymour" on your video) of the total five. Always disliked "A Contest of Aeons" ("Can You Fight Your Aeons" in your video) and "Final Battle" ("Decisive Battle"). Putting aside for the moment that the last two boss battles (against your Aeons and Yu Yevon, successively) were rather "tacked on" and totally anticlimactic after the far more controversial and energetic "Otherworld" battle with Jecht, "A Contest of Aeons" always sounded to me like it was in a strange, uninspiring key, and relied on its melodic similarity to the Hymn of the Fayth for all its impact. And "Final Battle" was just an uninteresting mess, as far as I'm concerned. I figure Uematsu's best job at remixing a tune within FFX came with using the same basic melody in "Auron's Theme" as "This Is Your Story".

But, although they may not be humble in the least (), these are mere opinions. Have you heard either the Xenogears or Xenosaga Episode I soundtracks? Both are scored by Mitsuda, and could still form the basis of a decent comparison for you, if you happen to be familiar with them (but make no mistake, Mitsuda was at his best in the Chrono series) . . .

[Fynn]

Interesting choices. Just as a matter of personal opinion, I only really liked "Fight With Seymour" ("Final Meeting With Seymour" on your video) of the total five. Always disliked "A Contest of Aeons" ("Can You Fight Your Aeons" in your video) and "Final Battle" ("Decisive Battle"). Putting aside for the moment that the last two boss battles (against your Aeons and Yu Yevon, successively) were rather "tacked on" and totally anticlimactic after the far more controversial and energetic "Otherworld" battle with Jecht, "A Contest of Aeons" always sounded to me like it was in a strange, uninspiring key, and relied on its melodic similarity to the Hymn of the Fayth for all its impact. And "Final Battle" was just an uninteresting mess, as far as I'm concerned. I figure Uematsu's best job at remixing a tune within FFX came with using the same basic melody in "Auron's Theme" as "This Is Your Story".

First off, from the music listed here, only Fight with Seymour, Auron's Theme and Otherworld were written by Nobuo. The Decisive Battle was written by Masashi Hamauzu (and is an awesome track, I might add), while Aeon Battle is by Junya Nakano. So, if anything, Nobuo's speciality is not remixing (that's right, This is Your Story is by Nakano, so he's the one that recycled Nobuo's track).

I gotta say Mitsuda is a great composer. Chrono Trigger's OST was great and Cross' was simply genius, but I wasn't quite fond of Xenogears' and I've yet to play Xenosaga (I live in Europe, so getting Der Wille zur Macht is quite difficult). Overall - really good soundtracks. But I still feel more attached to Uematsu. I think he's the better composer and I'll try to say why... On a side note, you do realize Nobuo composed about a third (if not more) of CT's soundtrack?

Like you said, Nobuo is great with normal battles, but I have to disagree with you at certain points. The first is in favour of Mitsuda - Gale and The Brink of Death are great battle tracks! They're different, but they're still solid battle themes, IMO. They both sound very urgent, as in "Oh no! An enemy! Beat it quick, we don't have much time!" Also, you gotta love Gale for being a tribute to Radical Dreamers. Nobuo's tracks are still better, in my opinion. The normal battle themes provide more balance (I did NOT like X's normal battle theme, though...) and don't get so tedious after two hours of random battles only. His boss battle tracks range from cool (IX, IV) to simply amazing (The Fierce Battle from VI and Those Who Fight Further from VII). These are tracks that are not only nice to listen to, but fill you with emotions that should be present during a fierce battle...

I have to say, I wasn't really fond of Mitsuda's area tracks. They just weren't as memorable as some of Nobuo's area tracks, though I must say Chrono Cross' MIDI quality and instrumentation were better than Uematsu's work, even on IX. While analysing Nobuo's and Mitsuda's work, you forgot to mention a very important factor, in which Mr. Uematsu definitelly has the upper hand - character themes. Mitsuda didn't write many of those (though those he did were quite nice - Star-Stealing Girl, which is Kid's theme, comes to mind, or Frog's Theme. I know there's more and a lot are very memorable, but I believe Nobuo's are still more memorable and there's more of them). Have you played FFVI? Fourteen characters in total. Each of them having a unique musical theme (besides Edgar and Sabin, who happen to share one). These themes fit the characters extremelly well and appear throughout the game, sometimes in a couple of versions, giving the characters more depth and more emotion to the event. In my opinion, it's not the composing experience or expertise, that makes a VGM composer - it's making the game come alive, which Nobuo managed to do in his works, especially with VI's OST and all its character themes.

With that, I do not mean to say Nobuo is an inexperienced composer - have you listened to Phantasmagoria? It's an album of Uematsu's, independent of any game he has written for. It's a completely different style than what we've heard in any FF so far. The tracks are very touching and nice to listen to. It's not something that anyone would like, but I do figure it is a little bit like Mike Oldfield's music... My point is, listening to these tracks, seeing how different they are from Uematsu's gaming compositions show's how versatile a composer he really is. That's why my vote goes to Nobuo Uematsu. Mitsuda has great potential, but I feel he still has a long way to go...

[Vice Nebulosa]

Yeah; music debate time! ^_^

First off, from the music listed here, only Fight with Seymour, Auron's Theme and Otherworld were written by Nobuo. The Decisive Battle was written by Masashi Hamauzu (and is an awesome track, I might add), while Aeon Battle is by Junya Nakano. So, if anything, Nobuo's speciality is not remixing (that's right, This is Your Story is by Nakano, so he's the one that recycled Nobuo's track).

Oh, right; forgot the whole "collaboration" thing that occurred in the FFX soundtrack. Point for you. My aforementioned opinions on the tracks in question still stand, but some of the blame can be removed from Uematsu. Looking over the Wiki article on the soundtrack, I find it somewhat surprising that "Run!!" was not written by Uematsu; it seemed to have his distinct "flavor" about it. Well, at least someone is able to approximate it fairly well . . .

I gotta say Mitsuda is a great composer. Chrono Trigger's OST was great and Cross' was simply genius, but I wasn't quite fond of Xenogears' and I've yet to play Xenosaga (I live in Europe, so getting Der Wille zur Macht is quite difficult).

Neither Xeno soundtrack is at all comparable to the Chrono counterparts, so Xenosaga I (beyond its extremely high production value, what with the London Symphony Orchestra) is unlikely to alter your opinion on the matter.

On a side note, you do realize Nobuo composed about a third (if not more) of CT's soundtrack?

Hell, a third is using some serious hyperbole. I count ten tracks of the total sixty-four that are credited to Uematsu, and none of them aside from "Sealed Door" are anything I would describe as "profound". Mostly his contributions to the soundtrack include the catchy, percussive themes that occur at particularly energetic points during the plot ("Bike Chase", "Burn! Bobonga!", "Tyran Castle" -- which does rule -- "Primitive Mountain", etc.). Uematsu's contributions are sizable, granted, but in this project Mitsuda is most definitely the soliloquy actor, and Uematsu the stage hand. Uematsu was merely brought in to compensate for Mitsuda's declining health during production, but the meat of the score was already in place, and it already included the musical power for which Mitsuda was thereafter known. Uematsu cannot touch "Corridors of Time", "Battle with Magus", "Undersea Palace", "To Far Away Times", etc. etc. ad infinitum, and therefore he cannot claim anything but a peripheral role in the fusion of the musical and dramatic storytelling brilliance that is Chrono Trigger.

Like you said, Nobuo is great with normal battles, but I have to disagree with you at certain points. The first is in favour of Mitsuda - Gale and The Brink of Death are great battle tracks!

God. :laugh: So you cannot only stand to listen to the suffering of those strings from the beginning to 0:15 of "Gale" and that damned blues organ which takes over the background thereafter, but you approve of it? :Eek: "The Brink of Death" was considerably better, I grant you, but nothing on Uematsu's better efforts in the same area.

Also, you gotta love Gale for being a tribute to Radical Dreamers.

Eh, "Viper Manor" earns my approval for that reason, but "Gale" was actually considerably less an aggravating listen in Radical Dreamers. *_*

Nobuo's tracks are still better, in my opinion. The normal battle themes provide more balance (I did NOT like X's normal battle theme, though...) and don't get so tedious after two hours of random battles only. His boss battle tracks range from cool (IX, IV) to simply amazing (The Fierce Battle from VI and Those Who Fight Further from VII). These are tracks that are not only nice to listen to, but fill you with emotions that should be present during a fierce battle...

*Nod* Uematsu is definitely the better man when it comes to melding the moods of camaraderie and crisis into a single "basic battle" track. Even the FFX "Battle Theme" (which I actually did enjoy :laugh:; something about following that bassline around) managed this considerably better than Mitsuda's "Battle 1" from CT or "Gale" from CC. Mitsuda is a "battle to save the universe" man, and less a "battle to kill the insignificant minions" man.

I have to say, I wasn't really fond of Mitsuda's area tracks.

Demon! :Eek: Back -- back from this holy place!

Seriously, though, I have never heard the Uematsu track that is more tranquil with a sense of beautiful simplicity than "Home Village Arni" (which, ironically, is not at all a simple piece of music), more an exotic, romantic reference to past glory than "Time's Grasslands - Home World", more an ominous anxiety before a threat that has no name but merely the form of ruin than "Ancient Dragon's Fort", more horrifying in its bleak simplicity than "Dead Sea - Tower of Ruin", more a tale of a vaguely familiar world that one regrets being a part of than "Chronopolis" (a piece plagiarized time without measure by less imaginitive composers ), etc, etc. I am not familiar with Uematsu's entire body of work (I possess the FFVII, Advent Children, and FFX soundtracks, and have heard decent portions of VIII), but what I have heard is largely fare of a shallower quality than that which Mitsuda prepares.

The Chrono universe is a considerably richer one than your basic Final Fantasy world as far as detail of plot and storytelling are concerned, and the complex themes of Mitsuda's music communicate this quite clearly. Chrono Cross, for instance, is not so simple as the "we have a clear enemy; we do not need to understand Sephiroth but we must stop him and we are justified in doing so" theme of FFVII (which is a brilliant storytelling method in its way), or the relatively shallow morality and romance-sacrifice issues confronted in FFX. CC, to examine a single facet thereof, deals with a protagonist confronted by multiple forces -- those forces, both ruthless and impassioned, that regard his very existence as a destructive abomination that should be reversed if possible, eliminated if necessary, and those quieter, more personal forces, both naïve and wise, that wish him to remain alive for one reason or another. We, as the player, witness the comparatively simple and "noble" actions conducted by the protagonists in Chrono Trigger brought to involuntary ruin by the protagonist of Chrono Cross -- such poetic irony as is wrought by the scenes in the Dead Sea is very much a finer, more twisted synthesis of intellect and sentiment than what your usual Final Fantasy title must produce for its target audience.

They just weren't as memorable as some of Nobuo's area tracks,

Thoroughly disagreed, but I enjoy the discussion. In all fairness, Uematsu has done some wonderful atmospheric work in his time; FFX in particular, what with samples like "Guadosalam", "Besaid", "Movement in Green", etc. is one of his stronger efforts.

While analysing Nobuo's and Mitsuda's work, you forgot to mention a very important factor, in which Mr. Uematsu definitelly has the upper hand - character themes.

Depends entirely on whether a track title must explicitly name a character to be considered a "character theme" in your opinion. The essence of a character's personality and aura can be woven into many aspects of a soundtrack, provided that the characters and music are of sufficient strength. Magus' theme in Chrono Trigger, for instance, takes many forms, even going as far as to become the "theme" of the Zeal Royal Family ("Schala's Theme", "Zeal Palace", and "Undersea Palace" all bear variations of the same melody). Could "Orphan of the Flame" be considered "Lynx's Theme" on the merit of its tones of ruthless power, or must the word "Lynx" be etched into the title?

I know there's more and a lot are very memorable, but I believe Nobuo's are still more memorable and there's more of them).

"One Winged Angel" for president! :frust:

Have you played FFVI? Fourteen characters in total. Each of them having a unique musical theme (besides Edgar and Sabin, who happen to share one).

Negative. Sounds intriguing, though.

In my opinion, it's not the composing experience or expertise, that makes a VGM composer - it's making the game come alive, which Nobuo managed to do in his works, especially with VI's OST and all its character themes.

Oh, fully concurred. It is not these criteria of what constitutes a "brilliant soundtrack" that is the source of our disagreement, but rather our estimates of the brilliance of the soundtracks involved, which is the best basis for discussion in matters like this. ^_^

With that, I do not mean to say Nobuo is an inexperienced composer

Hell, no one could claim such a thing. :laugh: Uematsu indeed epitomizes an unusual combination of high quality and great quantity.

- have you listened to Phantasmagoria? It's an album of Uematsu's, independent of any game he has written for.

Again, negative. Was unaware that Uematsu had done any independent work, really. Interesting.

My point is, listening to these tracks, seeing how different they are from Uematsu's gaming compositions show's how versatile a composer he really is. That's why my vote goes to Nobuo Uematsu. Mitsuda has great potential, but I feel he still has a long way to go...

Hm. Well, that is a legitimate opinion, but I am inclined to believe that Mitsuda struck his stake into the video game music industry at a virtually unparalleled height, arguably improved upon it in Chrono Cross, but has unfortunately been unable to maintain such a prodigious and unreasonable altitude on non-Masato Kato projects. Hopefully that is the only issue, and Mitsuda will rise again on a hypothetical third canon Chrono installment.

[Fynn]

Counter-counter-argument time! XD

Oh, right; forgot the whole "collaboration" thing that occurred in the FFX soundtrack. Point for you. My aforementioned opinions on the tracks in question still stand, but some of the blame can be removed from Uematsu. Looking over the Wiki article on the soundtrack, I find it somewhat surprising that "Run!!" was not written by Uematsu; it seemed to have his distinct "flavor" about it. Well, at least someone is able to approximate it fairly well . . .

Run actually struck me as one of the least Uematsu-sounding themes. It was still good, though. Ironically, it was one of the best "run"-tracks I have ever heard

Neither Xeno soundtrack is at all comparable to the Chrono counterparts, so Xenosaga I (beyond its extremely high production value, what with the London Symphony Orchestra) is unlikely to alter your opinion on the matter.

I heard some of the tracks on youtube and found something that I actually liked. There's this track in 'Gears that plays in the beginning FMV and when exploring all those super-ancient ruins, finding out stuff about the source of all life, etc... And I noticed that it's the same as one of the opening tracks of 'Saga, albeit a bit more electronic. And I actually liked this reference, 'cause that was one of those tracks that give you this eerie feeling, make a bit uneasy, but you still want to see more...

Hell, a third is using some serious hyperbole. I count ten tracks of the total sixty-four that are credited to Uematsu, and none of them aside from "Sealed Door" are anything I would describe as "profound". Mostly his contributions to the soundtrack include the catchy, percussive themes that occur at particularly energetic points during the plot ("Bike Chase", "Burn! Bobonga!", "Tyran Castle" -- which does rule -- "Primitive Mountain", etc.). Uematsu's contributions are sizable, granted, but in this project Mitsuda is most definitely the soliloquy actor, and Uematsu the stage hand. Uematsu was merely brought in to compensate for Mitsuda's declining health during production, but the meat of the score was already in place, and it already included the musical power for which Mitsuda was thereafter known. Uematsu cannot touch "Corridors of Time", "Battle with Magus", "Undersea Palace", "To Far Away Times", etc. etc. ad infinitum, and therefore he cannot claim anything but a peripheral role in the fusion of the musical and dramatic storytelling brilliance that is Chrono Trigger.

Alright, I exaggerated. But still, like you said yourself, some of his contributions to this OST are really great. And I never said he was better than Mitsuda on this one - this is Mr. Yasunori's game, while Nobuo Uematsu (along with Noriko Matsueda ) is merely a guest. All the tracks you've listed are truly masterpieces of this game.

God. :laugh: So you cannot only stand to listen to the suffering of those strings from the beginning to 0:15 of "Gale" and that damned blues organ which takes over the background thereafter, but you approve of it? :Eek: "The Brink of Death" was considerably better, I grant you, but nothing on Uematsu's better efforts in the same area.

Hell yeah, I approve! Gale had this eerie rythm, haunting strings and an organ that makes you wanna dance! It's definitelly one of a kind To top it off, it practically ditches the major-minor scheme for a more jazzy harmony style.

Eh, "Viper Manor" earns my approval for that reason, but "Gale" was actually considerably less an aggravating listen in Radical Dreamers. *_*

I don't see how. I found the MIDI they used in Chrono Cross far better than the sounds from the SNES. And I agree with you about Viper Manor.

*Nod* Uematsu is definitely the better man when it comes to melding the moods of camaraderie and crisis into a single "basic battle" track. Even the FFX "Battle Theme" (which I actually did enjoy :laugh:; something about following that bassline around) managed this considerably better than Mitsuda's "Battle 1" from CT or "Gale" from CC. Mitsuda is a "battle to save the universe" man, and less a "battle to kill the insignificant minions" man.

You're, like, Mr. Reverse! How can you hate Gale and like X's battle theme?! It's just boring, mundane and sounds as if it was done on one keyboard during a wedding party in the country! It's like bad disco! I have to agree that Mitsuda's final battle tracks are outstanding, but I still feel like you're not giving Uematsu enough credit in this area. Neo X-Death, Dancing Mad, One-Winged Angel, The Extreme... All are powerful, powerful tracks... Need I say more?

Demon! :Eek: Back -- back from this holy place!

Seriously, though, I have never heard the Uematsu track that is more tranquil with a sense of beautiful simplicity than "Home Village Arni" (which, ironically, is not at all a simple piece of music), more an exotic, romantic reference to past glory than "Time's Grasslands - Home World", more an ominous anxiety before a threat that has no name but merely the form of ruin than "Ancient Dragon's Fort", more horrifying in its bleak simplicity than "Dead Sea - Tower of Ruin", more a tale of a vaguely familiar world that one regrets being a part of than "Chronopolis" (a piece plagiarized time without measure by less imaginitive composers ), etc, etc. I am not familiar with Uematsu's entire body of work (I possess the FFVII, Advent Children, and FFX soundtracks, and have heard decent portions of VIII), but what I have heard is largely fare of a shallower quality than that which Mitsuda prepares.

The Chrono universe is a considerably richer one than your basic Final Fantasy world as far as detail of plot and storytelling are concerned, and the complex themes of Mitsuda's music communicate this quite clearly. Chrono Cross, for instance, is not so simple as the "we have a clear enemy; we do not need to understand Sephiroth but we must stop him and we are justified in doing so" theme of FFVII (which is a brilliant storytelling method in its way), or the relatively shallow morality and romance-sacrifice issues confronted in FFX. CC, to examine a single facet thereof, deals with a protagonist confronted by multiple forces -- those forces, both ruthless and impassioned, that regard his very existence as a destructive abomination that should be reversed if possible, eliminated if necessary, and those quieter, more personal forces, both naïve and wise, that wish him to remain alive for one reason or another. We, as the player, witness the comparatively simple and "noble" actions conducted by the protagonists in Chrono Trigger brought to involuntary ruin by the protagonist of Chrono Cross -- such poetic irony as is wrought by the scenes in the Dead Sea is very much a finer, more twisted synthesis of intellect and sentiment than what your usual Final Fantasy title must produce for its target audience.

OK, first of, I think you're getting a bit ahead of yourself, because we're talking about music here (I think I'm mainly saying this because I think I'd have to agree with you about the whole atmosphere and story thing, but where's the fun in a discussion like that? ) I did exaggerate when saying I didn't like his area tracks - the ones you listed (besides Home Village Arni) are good, but I just must have forgotten about them. The area tracks I meant were stuff like Hydra's Swamp and Gaea's Navel. Most of the less important area tracks seemed to lack imagination... I once again turn to FFVI (Play the game! You're missing out on a LOT!)for an example of how I like my "normal" area tracks. Mystic Forest and Phantom Train - even though the former is reused quite a bit, it never seems to get old. The eerie, yet soothing melody fit's the dungeons just so well, that you almost blend with the game. The music on the train is what I think FFVI is all about - grotesque! Comical, yet a bit scary, dark, twisted. Another track comes to mind - I don't remember the name, but it's the one that played in the first cave (and many other cave after that) you entered in FFVII. It starts of quietly, gently, but later on there's this part which is pracically dissonance after dissonance, and yet it doesn't make you flinch or anything - it gives you a feeling of uneasiness, such that you would undoubtedly have while exploring a mysterious, dark cave. The area tracks you've listed and I liked are all important area tracks. I guess for Mitsuda it's the same with the area tracks as it is with the battle themes - he tries a lot for the important ones, but seems to lack imagination for the small ones. I don't really think that's a good thing - a balanced soundtrack is a good one, IMO...

Thoroughly disagreed, but I enjoy the discussion. In all fairness, Uematsu has done some wonderful atmospheric work in his time; FFX in particular, what with samples like "Guadosalam", "Besaid", "Movement in Green", etc. is one of his stronger efforts.

*sigh* Sadly, you once againg gave the wrong examples. Guadosalam is Nakano's most prominent (IMO) contribution to X's soundtrack, while Besaid is by Masashi Hamauzu (another awesome VGM composer, who doesn't seem to get enough credit, seeing as he wasn't even considered for a debate during the creation of this thread )

Depends entirely on whether a track title must explicitly name a character to be considered a "character theme" in your opinion. The essence of a character's personality and aura can be woven into many aspects of a soundtrack, provided that the characters and music are of sufficient strength. Magus' theme in Chrono Trigger, for instance, takes many forms, even going as far as to become the "theme" of the Zeal Royal Family ("Schala's Theme", "Zeal Palace", and "Undersea Palace" all bear variations of the same melody). Could "Orphan of the Flame" be considered "Lynx's Theme" on the merit of its tones of ruthless power, or must the word "Lynx" be etched into the title?

I do NOT mean be name - I did mention Star-Stealing Girl, didn't I? I never said Mitsuda did not exploit leitmotiffs - I just think Nobuo does it better. He has composed for a lot of video games now, and I think one really needs to play (or at listen to their soundtrack) to be able to see his genius in creating recurring themes.
I never considered Orphan of Flame to be Lynx's theme. It plays in one scene, and I know Lynx plays a large role in it. However, I always thought of it as another theme for Kid - for saving her, since that was all that scene was about (and the title matches - Orphan? Of Flame?). Lynx was present and all, but I felt this track had more to do with Kid than with anyone else.

"One Winged Angel" for president! :frust:

Don't really agree... I mean, it is a great final boss track, but it's not really what I'd consider The King of all Final Battle Tracks. I do enjoy it a lot, but I think it gets far too much credit than it deserves...

Negative. Sounds intriguing, though.

See above.

Oh, fully concurred. It is not these criteria of what constitutes a "brilliant soundtrack" that is the source of our disagreement, but rather our estimates of the brilliance of the soundtracks involved, which is the best basis for discussion in matters like this. ^_^

At least we agree about something

Hell, no one could claim such a thing. :laugh: Uematsu indeed epitomizes an unusual combination of high quality and great quantity.

You learn quick

Again, negative. Was unaware that Uematsu had done any independent work, really. Interesting.

It is. It shows you how different stuff he can compose when he's not thinking Final Fantasy (althoug the album contains a remix of the series' anthem, it has a completely different feel to it that that heard in the games). You really should check it out.

Hm. Well, that is a legitimate opinion, but I am inclined to believe that Mitsuda struck his stake into the video game music industry at a virtually unparalleled height, arguably improved upon it in Chrono Cross, but has unfortunately been unable to maintain such a prodigious and unreasonable altitude on non-Masato Kato projects. Hopefully that is the only issue, and Mitsuda will rise again on a hypothetical third canon Chrono installment.

Like I said before - the Chrono series are "his" games. They wouldn't be the same without his music, this is not merely an opinion, but a fact. They are all beautiful soundtracks and have made their respective games into what they are. None can deny, that both Trigger and Cross (although less so) were very influential games. However, I still believe Nobuo has had a far greater influence in video game music, spreading even wider than that. I share your hopes that Mitsuda may one day rise again. I do like his music. There's just something in Uematsu's that's close to my heart...

[Wolf Kanno]

This is a terrible debate for me. My personal opinion is that they are both excellent composer's and I am always willing to listen to their soundtracks, even if I don't play the game for them. I feel they are equal.

Yet, part of me may have to give this to Nobuo. Not because I prefer his work; but because the man has written and arranged a ton of music over the years and most of them are great. Every game has at least one or two outstanding tracks, if not the whole musical score. I have to give the man extra points just for being able to write consistently good music. Not that I'm saying Mitsuda's music isn't good, but after 20 years in the business and countless scores of music, I feel Nobuo can still write good music and I don't know too many musicians, let alone composers that can equal up to that. So his track record is quite outstanding and I feel in another ten years, Mitsuda will be equal to him on this as well.

I'm not as familiar with CC's soundtrack as I would like to be, its one of the few soundtracks that tends to elude me when I go searching for it or its just overpriced when I find it. I do know quite a few tracks though so I am aware of its beauty but I feel its unfair to overlook Xenogears. Its soundtrack is also incredible and serves as the bridge between CT and CC. Mitsuda's works on Xenogears creates the foundation for CC's and many of his most beautiful scores that I personally love come from Xenogears, like Bond's Of Sea and Fire, Faraway Promise, Daijiru: City of Burning Sands, One Who Is Torn Apart, and The Beginning and The End

Even his work on Xenosaga is actually quite good, one of my biggest complaints about the game was the terrible use of Mitsuda's work. The game stuck to the same five tracks while the other 20+ tracks are usually only played once and its usually a snippet. Insecurity, Beach of Nothingness, Ormus, and The Miracle are all outstanding tracks that don't get the attention they deserve. I just find it odd that Mitsuda fans are so quick to dismiss the two Xeno soundtracks Mitsuda did. I feel both are on par with the Chrono series, they are only limited by the fans lack of awareness to their existence.

[Fynn]

It's not actually like that, at least for me. I managed to play Xenogears thanks to owning a PSP and I'm still dying to play Xenosaga. You know, it's just hard to get them. As I said before, I live in Europe and Neither Xenogears or Xenosaga Episode I got released here... So yeah, I can't use legal means... And I ommitted Xenogears' soundtrack simply because it didn't move me as much as CC's did. I don't think there's a reason to it, it's just a matter of personal taste, I guess...

However, I really like The Beginning and the End from Xenogears. Where does that piece play? 'Cause I can't remember it in game at all... It's one of those few amazing tracks that appeared in Xenogears... And those Xenosaga tracks - if the majority of the OST is composed this way, than I'm probably gonna love it, 'cause it's the same style as the tracks from 'Gears that I liked.

[Wolf Kanno]

Sorry, to hear about being screwed over for being in a PAL region. That sucks. The Beginning and the End is played during the ending, specifically the talk with Krelian.

Xenosaga has a great soundtrack but as I said, the developers smurfed up the sound editing and relegated most of those tracks to one listen only. You might be better off just picking up the OST.

For me, I found Xenogears to reach out to me more than CC. I think its because Xenogears overall had a profound affect on me. I find the sound track beautiful but then again, I prefer the slower more peaceful tracks which is why I do love the CC soundtrack as well but I can tie moments to Xenogears while I cannot for Chrono Cross.

[Fynn]

Yeah... That's the reason I think you should first play the game and later listen to the soundtrack - lets you appreciate the tracks more.

I guess the pieces from Xenogears that I didn't like were from all the dilly-dally moments at the beginning... It's too bad the story took almost the whole first disc to develop into what it's supposed to and then was very rushed in the second disc... I hope they might some day remake the game and make it all proper...

[Wolf Kanno]

Lately, I've learned its never a good idea to come back to an idea that's more than 10 years old. Even if they could get the original team back together to do it, I still think they would have a good chance of smurfing it all up. But I'm a pessimist.

As for Xenosaga OST, I didn't care for the soundtrack when I played through it. Outside of Albedo, Song of Nephilim, and the Last Battle; I never fel the soundtrack was great. Until I actually bought it and listened to it. Then I realized the game never used it proper so it grew on me and allowed me to enjoy the game more. I still can't remember where The Miracle plays, but Insecurity plays during my favorite part of the story(SPOILER) (the Cathedral Ship) in the game.

Its a better soundtrack than people give it credit.

[Vice Nebulosa]

Hell yeah, I approve! Gale had this eerie rythm, haunting strings and an organ that makes you wanna dance! It's definitelly one of a kind To top it off, it practically ditches the major-minor scheme for a more jazzy harmony style.

Whatever, mate. I just find it difficult to feel at all "haunted" or inspired to dance when the torture being plied against those opening strings peels in whenever another set of Viper Manor lanterns feels inclined to defy me. The track does little for me.

You're, like, Mr. Reverse!

Do I face an opposite force? It seems so. An equal one? It remains to be seen.

How can you hate Gale and like X's battle theme?! It's just boring, mundane and sounds as if it was done on one keyboard during a wedding party in the country! It's like bad disco!

I would not say that I "adore" the FFX basic battle theme, but "brass done well" is an occurrence rare enough that anything exhibiting the trait is given some automatic prestige points in my estimation. I found it to be an interesting mix of orchestral and synthetic elements that -- and this is the important part when dealing with a track that can literally start right back up again five seconds after terminating, thanks to the crude sadism of random battles -- does not make me wish to drop the game and read a damned Wiki plot summary. When I do feel in the mood to give the ridiculous complexity of Chrono Cross' plot another playthrough, I do suffer through the minutia that is invariably indicated by "Gale".

I have to agree that Mitsuda's final battle tracks are outstanding, but I still feel like you're not giving Uematsu enough credit in this area. Neo X-Death, Dancing Mad, One-Winged Angel, The Extreme... All are powerful, powerful tracks... Need I say more?

"One Winged Angel" I will give you. As for the rest, you are out of luck; all of them unfamiliar.

OK, first of, I think you're getting a bit ahead of yourself, because we're talking about music here (I think I'm mainly saying this because I think I'd have to agree with you about the whole atmosphere and story thing, but where's the fun in a discussion like that? )

*Shrug* Perhaps the remarks regarding the scenes in the Dead Sea were a bit tangential. Not entirely irrelevant to the discussion (as I was talking about the context into which a specific music track is placed in-game), but maybe it is an expansion of an already sizable discussion that we do not need.

I did exaggerate when saying I didn't like his area tracks

Apology accepted.

- the ones you listed (besides Home Village Arni) are good, but I just must have forgotten about them.

*Smirk* We are preordained to aggravate one another, it seems. :laugh:

The area tracks I meant were stuff like Hydra's Swamp and Gaea's Navel. Most of the less important area tracks seemed to lack imagination...

Granted. "Gaia's Navel" was actually the subject of an unusual quantity of my futile wrath. I made the fateful decision to stop the present playing session after entering the area and defeating the necessary green leviathan, and upon my return, I could not for my life locate the exit. Took. Days.

The area tracks you've listed and I liked are all important area tracks. I guess for Mitsuda it's the same with the area tracks as it is with the battle themes - he tries a lot for the important ones, but seems to lack imagination for the small ones. I don't really think that's a good thing - a balanced soundtrack is a good one, IMO...

*Shrug* Not a "good thing", per se, but certainly worth tolerating in order to hear what Mitsuda really has in store. The question of " the best composer", to my thinking (and I do expect you to flagrantly disagree), is one to be determined by comparing the best work of the parties involved. Not necessarily something so cut-and-dry as "One Winged Angel" vs. "Battle with Magus" or "Fight With Seymour" vs. "World Revolution", but, inevitably, the contest between the composers must be decided in the air, with their most powerful ammunition, rather than in the knife fight on the ground. The minutia counts for something, to be sure, but something like "Gale" fails to reduce my enjoyment of "Corridors of Time", or my esteem for Mitsuda in general, just as the fact that Uematsu produces little that I hate does nothing to change the favor he receives. If nothing else, the valleys are necessary to underscore the enormity of the mountains, and Mitsuda's blunders are somewhat more noticeable than Uematsu's due to the sheer bodies of work involved. Balance is crucial, yes. Inevitably, though, I will be inclined to favor the composer with the highest mountain and a decent balance over the composer who has fewer valleys to mar his record but never quite reaches the loftier heights. Such is my view of the comparison between Mitsuda and Uematsu in general, really.

*sigh* Sadly, you once againg gave the wrong examples. Guadosalam is Nakano's most prominent (IMO) contribution to X's soundtrack, while Besaid is by Masashi Hamauzu (another awesome VGM composer, who doesn't seem to get enough credit, seeing as he wasn't even considered for a debate during the creation of this thread )

. . . Damn it. And you.

Don't really agree... I mean, it is a great final boss track, but it's not really what I'd consider The King of all Final Battle Tracks. I do enjoy it a lot, but I think it gets far too much credit than it deserves...

The Advent Children version is more special than any other, methinks; the way the male and female portions of the choir are pitted against one another (particularly around 4:00 - 4:16) creates an incredibly daunting contrast. One does not often hear male vocals forced to that kind of volume, and it is truly impactive. *_*

*Blinks* We were talking about what, again?

You learn quick

Not always true. In this matter, though, little "learning" has taken place for several years. I have become more familiar with the work of both composers over time, but after Chrono Trigger and Chrono Cross, I considered the battle essentially won, and Uematsu has yet to ever subvert that rule. Uematsu is consistently good, and I will say it to whoever cares to listen, but Mitsuda is the unpredictable genius, who is liable to blow you utterly away with some incomparably evocative atmospheric or emotional track (at least whenever he and Kato are put in a room together). The latter type of genius, while he may elicit a little more caution from those seeking to hire him to score a video game, is certainly the more interesting.

However, I still believe Nobuo has had a far greater influence in video game music, spreading even wider than that.

Probably. The extent of one's influence is not directly proportional to the quality of one's art, though. Not to say that Uematsu's laurels are at all unearned, mind you, but Mitsuda has purchased my loyalty with a style and profundity that I have never before seen, and his influence upon me will remain, regardless of whether his industry grants him the same perspective. Again, this question of "the best composer", to me, has to do with the answer to the question "which composer has evoked the most/best from me?", and questions like "how has he influenced others in his industry?" are completely peripheral.

I share your hopes that Mitsuda may one day rise again.

Here's to that, mate. ^_^

Yet, part of me may have to give this to Nobuo. Not because I prefer his work; but because the man has written and arranged a ton of music over the years and most of them are great.

See, this is the sort of statement that confuses me. :laugh: Is not your "preference of his (Mitsuda's or Uematsu's) work" the criterion that matters most? Reducing this debate to the concept of "quality over quantity" may be entirely subjective and perhaps an oversimplification of things, but it is not entirely without merit. Quality must trump quantity, and it is the question of quality that should be addressed -- Uematsu, or Mitsuda? A case could be made for either, but I think that a comparison on those terms is the only one that matters.

Humble opinion, of course. <_< >_>

I'm not as familiar with CC's soundtrack as I would like to be, its one of the few soundtracks that tends to elude me when I go searching for it or its just overpriced when I find it.

Indeed. Acquired it through . . . less legal means, myself, so unless your objections to the idea are explicit, perhaps locating a torrent might be in order?

I do know quite a few tracks though so I am aware of its beauty but I feel its unfair to overlook Xenogears. Its soundtrack is also incredible and serves as the bridge between CT and CC.

Never quite thought of Xenogears in this context. Really can't say whether I agree with it at the moment; I just find it an interesting perspective.

Mitsuda's works on Xenogears creates the foundation for CC's and many of his most beautiful scores that I personally love come from Xenogears, like Bond's Of Sea and Fire, Faraway Promise, Daijiru: City of Burning Sands, One Who Is Torn Apart, and The Beginning and The End

The forever controversial "One Who Bares Fangs At God" bears watching, as well. ^_^

Even his work on Xenosaga is actually quite good, one of my biggest complaints about the game was the terrible use of Mitsuda's work. The game stuck to the same five tracks while the other 20+ tracks are usually only played once and its usually a snippet. Insecurity, Beach of Nothingness, Ormus, and The Miracle are all outstanding tracks that don't get the attention they deserve.

Fully concurred. Personally, I do not even remember the beautifully minimalist and offbeat "Warmth" being played in-game at all. ~_^

I just find it odd that Mitsuda fans are so quick to dismiss the two Xeno soundtracks Mitsuda did. I feel both are on par with the Chrono series, they are only limited by the fans lack of awareness to their existence.

Well, I can honestly say that this is not the case for me. I genuinely feel that the Chrono soundtracks are superior. :laugh:

[Slothy]

I'm not going to jump into the middle of this debate right now because it's the morning and I have to be at work in 20 minutes so I don't have time to read it all. I will say that looking at their bodies of work that I have listened to (which is quite a bit, though admittedly maybe half of the titles each has worked on), Uematsu has been far more consistent than Mitsuda in my eyes. Even his worst effort in my opinion (FFVIII) had quite a few stellar tracks on it. Mitsuda on the other hand seems to fluctuate between bouts of greatness with Chrono Trigger, to stuff that is bland and doesn't stand out at all like Xenosaga. I do like both of them quite a bit, but Mitsuda isn't always at top form. I don't blame him though since it'd be tough to do his job and come up with amazing soundtracks every single time.

[Fynn]

Vice Nebulosa... Nobody ever said it was quantity over quality. I believe (correct me if I'm wrong) what Wolf Kanno meant was that they are both amazing composers and it's hard to choose between them, but the fact is that Uematsu has written a lot more than Mitsuda.

You say Mitsuda's better from what you heard in the Chrono series. You have all the rights to do that, of course. But I think you're being a bit unfair judging Uematsu (and Mitsuda as well, for that matter) only on part of his work. The oldschool Fantasies hold his most memorable and classic tracks. Hell, IV's Theme of Love is even taught in music class in Japanese schools! I'm not even going to go into FFVI... Two words - opera scene. IMO, you can't really form an opinion on Uematsu's music without playing at least VI from the older games... Also worth mention is his extensive soundtrack for FFIX. So many tracks and so many incredible, memorable ones... You mentioned "mountains" and "valleys" - I agree for the most part. It just shouldn't be the bad tracks making the good tracks better. Nobuo has a lot of very tall "mountains" with few deep "valleys".

Some tracks from the Chrono series are amazing, but that does not make Yasunori Mitsuda the better composer. Uematsu has written a lot of equally (if not more) amazing soundtracks. When quality is similar, it's quantity that determines the verdict. I believe you're still unfamiliar with Uematsu's tallest "mountains"...