Final Fantasy 8 is the best one out of 'em all.

[Wolf Kanno]

There is the "Seifer is dead scene". If you sent Rinoa onto the Missile Base Mission, then he has the closest thing to a "tender moment" with Rinoa up to that point, at FH when they reunite; the concert scene was definetly awkward, as well as his dance with Rinoa at the ballroom scene. His final breakdown comes at disc 3 (this is when he's backed into a corner) when Rinoa is unconscious in the infirmary. Not to mention his flashbacks of his past show him trying to hold onto his self-absorbed justifications. His rescue of Rinoa during the Garden battle, him rescuing her in space, and his final confrontation of his feelings for her (or as I like to think of it as him becoming aware of what his "little gunblade" is for ) when he breaks into the cryostation lab and frees her from being imprisoned.

[NeoCracker]

I was reffering to the moments before the 'Imma save RInoa' thing, which was where I say he changed to suddenly to be realistic.

And the Seifer scene was just so freaking ridiculous I don't even want to go into those details...

I don't recall the Missile base scene you are taking about, and the Ballroom scene really didn't seem to do much at all. She forced Squall to dance, then left him all the wall. All this did was reinforce that his Ideas were right to him, and didn't exactly do anything towards the development of his character.

Which basically means before disk three, there are 3 things that happen. Two. One of which doesn't even make sense. And I don't know about the dance thing. Wasn't that after Rinoa was kidnapped anyway, making it kind of a moot in this specific conversation, as it's about how well his character was built up before the sudden change after her kidnap?

I can understand the Idea that he doesn't need to gradual change to get development, but he just completely shifts his personality all after a few short events, which I say is far less believable then a gradual change over time.

[Wolf Kanno]

But you're ignoring his mental thoughts, he acts like a jerk and he tries to justify it in his head but slowly you watch his thoughts come to questioning his own beliefs. His gradual change is told internally.

His dialogue after speaking with Ellone in the second disc has him talking to himself about how he should be self sufficient but then he turns around and says he's lying, he's confused and doesn't know what to do, then he he wishes someone could tell him what to do and at that moment, he realizes that he may need people. I believe we get treated with one of the flashbacks of his childhood where he tries to justify to himself why he's walked this path but really if you pay attention to his inner monologues you'll see he actually spends a good deal of time fighting against his own values and slowly realizing (as his comrades point it out to him) that he really is starting to care for others.

This goes back and forth in his brain until Rinoa goes into a coma and he finally confesses to her (well, she was in the coma at the time, how Squall of him ) that maybe he's running away from it all and maybe he's just afraid of getting hurt which is why he pushes people away. From there onward he becomes somewhat more open through the rest of Disc 3

The dance scene is also more important than you let on. Squall doesn't want to do it but as time goes on and he learns not to trip over Rinoa, he begins to enjoy it. Hell, the first time you see Squall laugh (and one of the few times he does) is when he first meets Rinoa. This whole scene is our first glimpse into seeing that Squall isn't a total rule junkie sour puss.

During the reunion from the Missile Mission, Squall actually talks about how glad he is to see Rinoa safe and how he may not have lived with himself had he ordered her to her death. Its kinda touching actually.

[NeoCracker]

The problem remains the same, regardless of his internal monologues argueing with himself.

He changes all at once. He goes from pushing people away, to letting them in all at once. That doesn't happen. At all. To anyone. Unless they are crazy.

An example of how this change should play out is Amarant from FF IX. He, like squall, was a major Loner from the get go. However, even though he did change for the better by the end, he still held on to much of what made him who he was.

Squall, not so much. He just changed. He was, basically, a completely different person in mere moments. Maybe if we had inclings into other aspects of who he was, it wouldn't come across that way. But we know very little about Squall except for his anti-social tendencies.

And I still argue the dance Scenario is rather moot. It doesn't tell you anything about Squall one doesn't already know. He pushes people away, and that scene just affirms why he does it, which we should have been able to figure out without the dances existence by that point. Or maybe it was just painfully obvious to me.

And the argument with himself on disk two doesn't really change much. True, I did forget this part, but it doesn't really change much. It's still a buildup to a cracking point that manages to change him completely in a moment, which still makes no sense.

And I take issue with scenes like Rinoa, where you only get Crucial CHaracter development if you end up playing a certain way, but past that I can't really comment on it, as I don't think I witnessed that scene.

[Wolf Kanno]

There are a lot more internal dialogue scenes like that though. He also does have moments where he tries to reach out to other characters like Zell and Selphie after they both suffer from bad moments. He actually does try to reach out to people from time to time but he does it in an awkward way and when people wonder what he's doing he backs away in fear but he actually tries.

Regarding the Missile Base reunion. Even if you bring Rinoa with you, you get a scene where he actually mentions he was worried about their safety and Rinoa questions him about his real feelings about his teammates and her. I feel you're too hung up on what you felt was a drastic change (and its not as uncommon as you think ) and ignoring a lot of the build-up cause Squall doesn't try to be happy or funny and instead is just awkward and bit aloof. Basically you ignore his attempts cause its not how you felt it should be done.

You also miss the point of why I felt the dance scene is important. Yes it does cement why he thinks like he does but it also shows he can be open and fun if he wants to be and just let's go of his mental baggage.

Also, Amarant is a terrible character, with no real growth. He's an ass, reveals he's got a stupid reason to be an ass to you, and then never leaves your party and remains an ass. There was no growth with him imo. But I digress, this is not important to this discussion at hand.

[NeoCracker]

Yes, there are a lot of internal dialogue scenes like that. A lot of them. And on all of them my point remains the same, they are all the same thing.

And I dont' even remember the moments he tries to reach out to anybody to be honest, and I've played up through disc 3 of this game twice, the second time was me trying to force myself to finish it years later. Perhaps these scenes do exist, but if so then they basically get completely overshadows by everything else squall does.

And its not that I felt it's not how it should have been done, it's that they did it horribly regardless. The moments of developement with his party members you mentioned get completely overshadows by his complete and total one sided personality, and after his change of heart, he doesn't even seem like the same character anymore.

I would have been just as pissed with a gradual change, if he started teh same and ended up a colorful circus clown obsessed with Lemon pudding. THe fact is, he wasn't the same character at that point, at all. Nothing outside of his appearance felt like it was still squall.

Admittedly I might have missed out on some things as you mentioned, but it was still so horribly done and overshadowed, it doesn't really matter if he has character development or not, it was still terribly done.

And on the note of Amarant, he isn't an ass to you because of what you did. He simply knows you because of it. It is easy to see from the get go, being an ass is just who Amarant is.

He grabs the job upon the rumours of a tailed man yes, but thats because he wants to fight you. It has nothing to do with him being an ass.

And Amarant does in fact grow, if only a little. He may leave you in the end, but he begins to understand the reasons for working with other people. I recall you seeing him with Lani at the end, showing some growth to him. You say it has no importance, but in the very little screen time he was given, he showed, even if only a little, legit and believable development, something an entire game focused on Squall failed to do.

True, it could have been better, and I personally think more screen time could have helped, but thats beside the point.

[Rostum]

Yes, there are a lot of internal dialogue scenes like that. A lot of them. And on all of them my point remains the same, they are all the same thing.

And I dont' even remember the moments he tries to reach out to anybody to be honest, and I've played up through disc 3 of this game twice, the second time was me trying to force myself to finish it years later. Perhaps these scenes do exist, but if so then they basically get completely overshadows by everything else squall does.

And its not that I felt it's not how it should have been done, it's that they did it horribly regardless. The moments of developement with his party members you mentioned get completely overshadows by his complete and total one sided personality, and after his change of heart, he doesn't even seem like the same character anymore.

I would have been just as pissed with a gradual change, if he started teh same and ended up a colorful circus clown obsessed with Lemon pudding. THe fact is, he wasn't the same character at that point, at all. Nothing outside of his appearance felt like it was still squall.

Admittedly I might have missed out on some things as you mentioned, but it was still so horribly done and overshadowed, it doesn't really matter if he has character development or not, it was still terribly done.

And on the note of Amarant, he isn't an ass to you because of what you did. He simply knows you because of it. It is easy to see from the get go, being an ass is just who Amarant is.

He grabs the job upon the rumours of a tailed man yes, but thats because he wants to fight you. It has nothing to do with him being an ass.

And Amarant does in fact grow, if only a little. He may leave you in the end, but he begins to understand the reasons for working with other people. I recall you seeing him with Lani at the end, showing some growth to him. You say it has no importance, but in the very little screen time he was given, he showed, even if only a little, legit and believable development, something an entire game focused on Squall failed to do.

True, it could have been better, and I personally think more screen time could have helped, but thats beside the point.

/clap

Oh, and to stay a bit more closer to the purpose of this thread - I think that a lot of the pre-rendered backgrounds in this game really gave a great overall asthetic. Definietly not up to the standard of Chrono Cross or Final Fantasy IX, but the architectual designs and overall style made we want to play through the game in its entirety; especially in Ultimecia's castle.

Also, as Ouch said, Triple Triad is a bit of fun (much better than Tetra Master).

[NeoCracker]

You know, I honestly don't know if that clapping is suppose to be sarcastic or not.

Though you do have a point, there are some nice backrounds to be found.

And honestly, as obsurd as putting a monster filled garden inside of the Gardens was, it did look pretty cool.

[Rostum]

You know, I honestly don't know if that clapping is suppose to be sarcastic or not.

Sorry, non-sarcastic. In agreeance.

[NeoCracker]

You know, I honestly don't know if that clapping is suppose to be sarcastic or not.

Sorry, non-sarcastic. In agreeance.

For some reason I just remember you as a big FF VIII fan, and I have no Idea why.

[Wolf Kanno]

Yes, there are a lot of internal dialogue scenes like that. A lot of them. And on all of them my point remains the same, they are all the same thing.

His internal dialogue does change. He tries to justify it and eventually see's there is no basis for his logic, rather its his own fears that cause him to be this way. Its all there in the dialogue, even his real dialogue if you just pay attention. He's an ass, gets thrown into circumstances that force him to realize the values of others and recognize that his own attitude is the direct result of his personal fears of abandonment. Once he recognizes that, he tries to better himself and become open and actually winds up being a decent human being at the end of it all. How is that not gradual growth, especially when I feel the dialogue supports this.

And I don't even remember the moments he tries to reach out to anybody to be honest, and I've played up through disc 3 of this game twice, the second time was me trying to force myself to finish it years later. Perhaps these scenes do exist, but if so then they basically get completely overshadows by everything else squall does.

They are there and if you just didn't set in stone your feelings for Squall and the game, you might be able to notice them. I'm playing through the game right now and I see lots of progress and lots of times he opens up and begins to trust people. From talking to Zell after getting Balamb in trouble, to letting Selphie undergo the Missile Base missions, to actually sighing a relief and being friendly with the party when they reunite in FH. I'm not even past the second disc and I can see the growth already so I find it hard to understand where you're coming from with this "No growth" argument.

And its not that I felt it's not how it should have been done, it's that they did it horribly regardless. The moments of development with his party members you mentioned get completely overshadows by his complete and total one sided personality, and after his change of heart, he doesn't even seem like the same character anymore.

You're suppose to take both of them and see the difference. His moments of opening up along with his cold defenses. Squall's character development is a lesson in character studies. You can't just ignore one cause you feel his self defense mechanism is how he really feels. Frankly, Squall's personality is a contradiction in itself. I just get the feeling you hated Squall's asshole side and basically stereotyped him being like that.

I would have been just as pissed with a gradual change, if he started the same and ended up a colorful circus clown obsessed with Lemon pudding. The fact is, he wasn't the same character at that point, at all. Nothing outside of his appearance felt like it was still squall.

Admittedly I might have missed out on some things as you mentioned, but it was still so horribly done and overshadowed, it doesn't really matter if he has character development or not, it was still terribly done.

God, Squall doesn't change that much and he does actually go back to being his usual aloof self to some degree, he just actually talks more often and tends to actually say what he's thinking. This coincides with the fact that Squall thinks one way and does another. He just finally starts doing what he's thinking. To me that is sign of growth and good change that doesn't really conflict with his attitude, cause for the first time he's actually being himself.

I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree cause obviously we are not going to be convincing each other of anything.

[NeoCracker]

True, but I still like to go back and forth.

Though two last things.

1) I didn't cement immidiately I hated Sqaull. First time I played I gave him an honest shot. It wasn't until a ways into disc 2 I finally decided I hated the guy, and he was, overall, a horridly done character. (And don't go trying to say I hated him because I was a IX fanboy, I didn't become one until after this game pissed me off. )

2) True, you probably are suppose to notice both aspects. But if you were chained down by a man who, every 2-3 minutes, kicked you in the balls, are you ever going to notice, or care, that he started a charity that actually doesn't keep most profits to himself, and uses that money not for temporary relief, but actually tries to solve the problem behind it? No, you're going to be going 'WHY THE HELL WON'T YOU STOP KICKING ME IN THE BALLS!'

[Sweet Beloved]

If you doubt it, you'll have to go through me.

Discuss why it's the superior game out of the other titles.

and me.

gosh, i love it. it's what got me into the series in the first place :o

i'd have to say because of the junctioning system. for me, it was a lot easier to junction and draw magic than having to use mp or upgrade materia like in vii. it introduced a whole 'nother way of playing an rpg, and that's what i loved about it.

plus, i loved the fact that the gfs (or summons if you'd like) could learn abilities that can really help out. ;D

[Takero]

Originally Posted by NeoCracker

And I dont' even remember the moments he tries to reach out to anybody to be honest, and I've played up through disc 3 of this game twice, the second time was me trying to force myself to finish it years later. Perhaps these scenes do exist, but if so then they basically get completely overshadows by everything else squall does.


Admittedly I might have missed out on some things as you mentioned, but it was still so horribly done and overshadowed, it doesn't really matter if he has character development or not, it was still terribly done.

FF VIII ia all about minor details . if you dont look at things just because they are overshadowed you are gonna lose the entire plot and the story .

I think thats why you dont undrestand Wolf Kanno's points .

[NeoCracker]

Originally Posted by NeoCracker

And I dont' even remember the moments he tries to reach out to anybody to be honest, and I've played up through disc 3 of this game twice, the second time was me trying to force myself to finish it years later. Perhaps these scenes do exist, but if so then they basically get completely overshadows by everything else squall does.


Admittedly I might have missed out on some things as you mentioned, but it was still so horribly done and overshadowed, it doesn't really matter if he has character development or not, it was still terribly done.

FF VIII ia all about minor details . if you dont look at things just because they are overshadowed you are gonna lose the entire plot and the story .

I think thats why you dont understand Wolf Kanno's points .

I actually fully understand his points.

The problem is when you have to sift through mounds of crap to find the minor details.

In the case off FF VIII, we aren't just looking for the moments that are good, you have to look past the waves of garbage just to find them.

Especially when I lost none of the plot and story in this game without all those supposed minor details. Those two things are obvious, just horribly constructed.