Emo Re-invention

[Heath]

I never got the impression that Cloud was emo. I tend to think of being emo as unjustified self-indulgence a lot of the time and I'll be honest, I think the experiences of Cloud are slightly trickier than those of a sixteen year old boy who can't decide which shade of black to dye his hair. There are times in the game when Cloud struggles and does question the nature of his existence to a certain extent, but given the extraordinary circumstances he's in, I'd be quite worried if he didn't.

[Wolf Kanno]

I think you need to pay a little less attention to how he acts, and focus on what they all do. It really annoys the heck out of me. Cloud is going to be black gue in one month and distances himself from the twelve year old girl so she doesn't have to see that. Cid gets his dreams crushed by Shera and for the following three years or so allows her to life in his house as long as he can verbally abuse her to his hearts content. it would really take him only a few minutes to find out that it wasn't her fault.

However far more important then all this Cid is funny and awesome while Cloud is angsty and awkward. Therefore, Cid is the better character and more of a hero.

Cid's not really the issue cause I actually do like him in VII but as I said earlier, my problem is that Cloud has justifiable reasons to be a gloomy dud but he doesn't talk about that. He spends the entirety of the movies dialogue muttering about being forgiven by Zack and Aerith which was something I felt was already resolved decently in the original game. So instead of focusing on the plot of the film Cloud would rather retcon the original so we can watch his character growth from Disc 2 again in a 90 minute film.

Its one thing saying Cloud's depressed cause he's dying and Denzel is dying but he pretty much never talks about it. I don't think he even mentions either plot element at all in his dialogue except when Tifa confronts him at Nibelheim and then he doesn't even say anything. He just goes on about how he's powerless to save people and wants to be forgiven. He finally does do some ass kicking but it doesn't change we basically retcon him so we can retell a facet of his story again. Thirty minutes of action scenes with wire-fu does not make up for spending and hour listening to Cloud whine. Thank god for DVD scene selection.

Besides, being a badass in combat and then spending your dialogue muttering how he can't do anything is more annoying than saying its "wonderful character development". He was an interesting character in the original, I never found him likable but he is intriguing to a degree. In the Compilation he's disfigured shadow of his former self. He's up there with Shinji Ikari on the "angst scale".

[NeoCracker]

I don't think he was that bad in Dissidia. I mean, I really can't blame him for needing a reason to fight. Unlike everyone else, he didn't have one. I'd be a little reluctant to fight myself.

True, he's not near as well done as the others, but he's not really that bad. :P

On that note, never was a big cloud fan, not of any of his incarnations. Though I certainly wouldn't call him emo.

[Jaffer]

Cid's not really the issue cause I actually do like him in VII but as I said earlier, my problem is that Cloud has justifiable reasons to be a gloomy dud but he doesn't talk about that. He spends the entirety of the movies dialogue muttering about being forgiven by Zack and Aerith which was something I felt was already resolved decently in the original game. So instead of focusing on the plot of the film Cloud would rather retcon the original so we can watch his character growth from Disc 2 again in a 90 minute film. :roll2

Its one thing saying Cloud's depressed cause he's dying and Denzel is dying but he pretty much never talks about it. I don't think he even mentions either plot element at all in his dialogue except when Tifa confronts him at Nibelheim and then he doesn't even say anything. He just goes on about how he's powerless to save people and wants to be forgiven. He finally does do some ass kicking but it doesn't change we basically retcon him so we can retell a facet of his story again. Thirty minutes of action scenes with wire-fu does not make up for spending and hour listening to Cloud whine. Thank god for DVD scene selection. ;)

Besides, being a badass in combat and then spending your dialogue muttering how he can't do anything is more annoying than saying its "wonderful character development". He was an interesting character in the original, I never found him likable but he is intriguing to a degree. In the Compilation he's disfigured shadow of his former self. He's up there with Shinji Ikari on the "angst scale".:D

Well I think we're suppose to believe that Cloud just put up a front during Disc 2 and 3 because the world needed saving. And it's not really AC that does the retcon, CC does and AV was hinting to that. in FFVII he got over his insecurities and his SOLDIER First Class persona arose from those insecurities. Now in CC it was a concious decision on his and Zack's behalf. He promised to never forget, embrace his dreams and protect his SOLDIER honour like Zack did. que to the start of FFVII where he had forgotten all about zack and was blowing up Mako reactors and killing innocent people for money under his SOLDIER First class persona.

The developers did give him something new to forgive himself for and maybe we are suppose to believe that his memories of Zack actually didn't return until after the end of FFVII but something got lost in the execution of it all.

[Wolf Kanno]

Its a good way of looking at it but I still feel VII worked better as a stand alone title and that the Compilation has altered several of the characters. Its still technically a retcon since the Compilation (and even the Ultimania) were all written several years after the original and only had the input of a few of the original writers.

I feel VII ends on a good note for most of the cast and I feel AC turns around and retcons all this just so we can have some extra drama and perhaps squeeze out a few more spin offs and mke more money. There are a lot of things wrong with the Compilation titles from a writing/story perspective but I won't go into it here as this is specifically about Cloud.

NeoCracker: Do you even pay attention to his opening and closing dialogue? Its mostly, "I don't want to do this", "Not proud of that one", and "I'm not going to sleep well tonight". I just find it amusing he falls back on his default dilemma of having to wait for someone to prod at him before he takes action, waiting almost til the worst case scenario. Though I admit he works well as a supporting character in some of the plots (mostly Terra's since they are very similar) but I feel a difference here is that Cloud does have a stated rivalry with Sephiroth and it would have worked better if his goal was to search and defeat Sephiroth which would parallel the first disc of VII as opposed to what we got.(SPOILER) It really would have worked better considering the actual plot of Dissidia and thus the main theme of the game actually parallels to some degree the Reunion of VII.

[The Turk]

He promised to never forget, embrace his dreams and protect his SOLDIER honour like Zack did. que to the start of FFVII where he had forgotten all about zack and was blowing up Mako reactors and killing innocent people for money under his SOLDIER First class persona.

Except of course that becoming a mercenary for hire was Zack's idea in the first place.

[Jaffer]

Zack explicietly said that he is enthustiastic about protecting Midgar.

[The Turk]

No he didn't. Maybe he said that in his heroic-re-invention, but not in VII.

What he says is "That settles it! I'm going to become a mercenary! Boring stuff, dangerous stuff, anything for money."

[Crimson]

No he didn't. Maybe he said that in his heroic-re-invention, but not in VII.

What he says is "That settles it! I'm going to become a mercenary! Boring stuff, dangerous stuff, anything for money."

I said it once and i'll say it now.


That can be viewed in so many wrong ways.

[The Turk]

Lol. Maybe they were going to work in the Honeybee Inn? That might be fun..... or dangerous.... especially when Mukki is around.

[Jaffer]

What he said in FFVII is irrelevant, we're talking about the compilation here. When Cloud was busy regretting stuff in AC he was flashbacking to the Zack from Crisis Core, same footage even.

[The Turk]

Except that Crisis Core hadn't been invented then.... Plus the thread is about how AC and the compilation completely changed Cloud so it's extremely relevant.

In VII Zack told Clout to be a mercenary. Cloud did. Cloud then had an identity crisis and got a bit depressed when he thought he was a clone, but Tifa was able to help him and he then picked himself up, pulled himself together and defeated Sephiroth.


Then AC came around and made Cloud all sad again. If you are saying that's because Zack said some stuff to him about protecting midgar then that is a retcon just like Cloud's character change in AC. In VII his character wasn't at all emo come the closing credits and he had no reason to feel guilt about anything Zack told him.

[Jaffer]

In ACC at least it was like that.

SPOILERS

*Cloud puts Buster Sword in the rock.*
Zack: My honour, my dream, they're yours now.
Cloud: I swore that I would never forget, I tried. But I...
*grabs arm, eyes turn in slits*
Sephiroth: Don't pretend you're sad, why tremble with anger that's not even there? Face it Cloud, all you are, is an empty puppet...

End SPOILERS

in AC he was already talking about him having promised to live out both our lives. Something that doesn't match up with FFVII, they made AC with the prospect of making an explaining prequel in mind.

Anyway Wolf Kanno, you say he's not depressed over the right reasons but when I say he's depressed because of GeoStigma I don't just mean he's depressed because he's sick and dying, depression, or as it was stated, having your heart filled with doubt, is a drect symptom of GeoStigma. What he focuses his sadness on is his problem.

[Wolf Kanno]

Except no where is it ever stated that Geostigma affects the mental state of the victim. We only see Cloud affected by hallucinations and seizures, no one else.

The Compilation Ultimania doesn't even mention mental side affects of the disease, only that it affects the immune system, causes black spots, and eventual death. Nothing about causing a supernatural mental state of mind. For all we know, Cloud's mental issues from AC could be leftovers from the Sephiroth Clone experiment. Cloud may have finally overcome the Jenova cells and Sephiroth's will but it doesn't necessarily mean he's mentally strong enough to hold back subsequent attacks.

My issue is here is from a writing standpoint. Giving Cloud an incurable disease nd shackling him down with a kid with the same disease all so you can use it as an excuse to have Cloud spend the entire movie moping around about events that were resolved in the original game ultimately retconning the original for the sake of giving Cloud something to do cause obviously he's not a good enough character to overcome anything outside of mental trauma brought on by his past just like his game. In almost every title he appears in he basically relives the plot of VII, except he gets more depressing and appears more like a sick shadow of his former self.

The Compilation has done nothing but spit on the name of the original cause at this point in time if there ever is going to be a VII remake we now have to change the original in order to have everything conform to the retcon continuity from the Compilation. Now I don't claim to be a great writer but somehow, it just seems illogical to create sequels and prequels that do not conform to the continuity of the original and instead strike out on your own and create a scenario where the original will have to be changed considerably in order to fit into the sequels/prequels that were made 10 years after the fact. That's just bad writing in my book. Especially since I don't feel either Cloud, Tifa, or Sephiroth appear in any of these titles acting the same way they did in the game.

[Jaffer]

Except no where is it ever stated that Geostigma affects the mental state of the victim. We only see Cloud affected by hallucinations and seizures, no one else.

The Compilation Ultimania doesn't even mention mental side affects of the disease, only that it affects the immune system, causes black spots, and eventual death.

"That is why our hearts are filled with doubt." Kadaj, pretty much the guy that's causing it on Geostigma.

My issue is here is from a writing standpoint. Giving Cloud an incurable disease nd shackling him down with a kid with the same disease all so you can use it as an excuse to have Cloud spend the entire movie moping around about events that were resolved in the original game ultimately retconning the original for the sake of giving Cloud something to do cause obviously he's not a good enough character to overcome anything outside of mental trauma brought on by his past just like his game. In almost every title he appears in he basically relives the plot of VII, except he gets more depressing and appears more like a sick shadow of his former self.

The Compilation has done nothing but spit on the name of the original cause at this point in time if there ever is going to be a VII remake we now have to change the original in order to have everything conform to the retcon continuity from the Compilation. Now I don't claim to be a great writer but somehow, it just seems illogical to create sequels and prequels that do not conform to the continuity of the original and instead strike out on your own and create a scenario where the original will have to be changed considerably in order to fit into the sequels/prequels that were made 10 years after the fact. That's just bad writing in my book. Especially since I don't feel either Cloud, Tifa, or Sephiroth appear in any of these titles acting the same way they did in the game.

I dunno what to tell you, having a cheerful lead that spends his time banging his FF cup girlfriend wasn't going to work for most stories. It would've been fun but it wasn't going to make for a particularly immersing story.