Emo Re-invention

[NeoCracker]

Its a good way of looking at it but I still feel VII worked better as a stand alone title and that the Compilation has altered several of the characters. Its still technically a retcon since the Compilation (and even the Ultimania) were all written several years after the original and only had the input of a few of the original writers.

I feel VII ends on a good note for most of the cast and I feel AC turns around and retcons all this just so we can have some extra drama and perhaps squeeze out a few more spin offs and mke more money. There are a lot of things wrong with the Compilation titles from a writing/story perspective but I won't go into it here as this is specifically about Cloud.

NeoCracker: Do you even pay attention to his opening and closing dialogue? Its mostly, "I don't want to do this", "Not proud of that one", and "I'm not going to sleep well tonight". I just find it amusing he falls back on his default dilemma of having to wait for someone to prod at him before he takes action, waiting almost til the worst case scenario. Though I admit he works well as a supporting character in some of the plots (mostly Terra's since they are very similar) but I feel a difference here is that Cloud does have a stated rivalry with Sephiroth and it would have worked better if his goal was to search and defeat Sephiroth which would parallel the first disc of VII as opposed to what we got.(SPOILER) It really would have worked better considering the actual plot of Dissidia and thus the main theme of the game actually parallels to some degree the Reunion of VII.

Okay, his in-battle dialogue was horrid. Very, very, horrid. I won't deny that one.

And a simple 'search and defeat sephiroth' goal was far to simple, since Cloud obviously wanted a deeper reason. I admit he wasn't a particularly great character in Dissidia, (Or in his original game for that matter, better then later incarnations though) but he was decent.

I do agree he worked better as a supporting character though.

I dunno what to tell you, having a cheerful lead that spends his time banging his FF cup girlfriend wasn't going to work for most stories. It would've been fun but it wasn't going to make for a particularly immersing story.

I don't think anyones denying that to be true, but the overall point is AC really doesn't have a place in the FF VII universe on the grounds it makes no sense to do when showed along side the game.

That asside, Rufus in AC is the epitome of win. 'A good son would have known' is by far the best singl line of dialogue in either the game or movie.

[Wolf Kanno]

"That is why our hearts are filled with doubt." Kadaj, pretty much the guy that's causing it on Geostigma.

A poetic line out of context doesn't really mean anything I'm afraid. The Ultimania itself never says anything about Geostigma weakening the mind. The Ultimania says its only painful and leads to death. It never says Cloud's hallucinations are a direct result of the disease. In fact he has the majority of them around Kadaj so it would be more plausible to be a result of Cloud coming into contact with Sephiroth's will.

I dunno what to tell you, having a cheerful lead that spends his time banging his FF cup girlfriend wasn't going to work for most stories. It would've been fun but it wasn't going to make for a particularly immersing story.

Originally, the film was only going to be a quiet 30 minute film explaining what everyone was up to after the events of VII. There was no Geostigma or Sephy Remnants. It was decided fans wouldn't go for that (despite most that I've talked to saying that idea would have been fine if not better) so we got AC instead.

My only issue, as stated by NeoCracker is the problem that the Compilation sorta changes things left and right. It comes across very often as having no real respect for the original source material and genuinely I find most of the writing to be overly dramatic and ultimately terrible. Had they at least not try to change things for the sake of franchising the VII name out I would probably be much more kind to the Compilation but that doesn't look like its going to happen.

Okay, his in-battle dialogue was horrid. Very, very, horrid. I won't deny that one.

And a simple 'search and defeat sephiroth' goal was far to simple, since Cloud obviously wanted a deeper reason. I admit he wasn't a particularly great character in Dissidia, (Or in his original game for that matter, better then later incarnations though) but he was decent.

I do agree he worked better as a supporting character though.

I think Cloud having an obsession with tracking down Sephiroth and getting revenge would have worked so much better cause like all the other plots, it would have paralleled VII's first disc (you know, the good one) especially when its revealed (SPOILER)that everything is in a time loop with people playing out their "roles". Thus Cloud would have to face realizing that his obsession with Sephy was not his true will. Just like the game.

[NeoCracker]

"That is why our hearts are filled with doubt." Kadaj, pretty much the guy that's causing it on Geostigma.

A poetic line out of context doesn't really mean anything I'm afraid. The Ultimania itself never says anything about Geostigma weakening the mind. The Ultimania says its only painful and leads to death. It never says Cloud's hallucinations are a direct result of the disease. In fact he has the majority of them around Kadaj so it would be more plausible to be a result of Cloud coming into contact with Sephiroth's will.

I dunno what to tell you, having a cheerful lead that spends his time banging his FF cup girlfriend wasn't going to work for most stories. It would've been fun but it wasn't going to make for a particularly immersing story.

Originally, the film was only going to be a quiet 30 minute film explaining what everyone was up to after the events of VII. There was no Geostigma or Sephy Remnants. It was decided fans wouldn't go for that (despite most that I've talked to saying that idea would have been fine if not better) so we got AC instead.

My only issue, as stated by NeoCracker is the problem that the Compilation sorta changes things left and right. It comes across very often as having no real respect for the original source material and genuinely I find most of the writing to be overly dramatic and ultimately terrible. Had they at least not try to change things for the sake of franchising the VII name out I would probably be much more kind to the Compilation but that doesn't look like its going to happen.

Okay, his in-battle dialogue was horrid. Very, very, horrid. I won't deny that one.

And a simple 'search and defeat sephiroth' goal was far to simple, since Cloud obviously wanted a deeper reason. I admit he wasn't a particularly great character in Dissidia, (Or in his original game for that matter, better then later incarnations though) but he was decent.

I do agree he worked better as a supporting character though.

I think Cloud having an obsession with tracking down Sephiroth and getting revenge would have worked so much better cause like all the other plots, it would have paralleled VII's first disc (you know, the good one) especially when its revealed (SPOILER)that everything is in a time loop with people playing out their "roles". Thus Cloud would have to face realizing that his obsession with Sephy was not his true will. Just like the game.

Alright, Point taken. Regardless, I still think the dissidia Cloud is well done overall.

However, they totally should have put Cid in instead of cloud. I still argue that Cid is the single greatest thing in FF VII.

[Wolf Kanno]

Though I do agree that Cid is the best anything out of VII there are too many good Cid's to just let them choose him. That and he lost his cool factor when they decided to give him a dumb southern drawl for some stupid reason. The one thing I don't look forward to in a remake is listening to Cid sound like a white trash, redneck

[The Turk]

I don't get all the Cid love myself. Yes he's a good character with an amazing run, but why is he so much better a character than say Tifa, Vincent, Yuffie, Red or Reno? He's average in battle, has almost no connection to the main plot and is a total prick for most of the game. Is it because he swears a lot?

[Wolf Kanno]

Its because he's a total prick for most of the game. That's why I love him. He's funny in a dark humor sorta way and I honestly liked his backstory though his whole scenario of joining you doesn't really make much sense when you really think about it.

Tifa's a plot hole, Vincent is Cloud but a little worse (at least Cloud's angst is justifiable), Red XIII is boring once you get past his character design and also has no real connection to the plot, Yuffie is a smurfing whore who deserves to die, and Reno is also totally awesome in VII (also has a huge fanbase, larger than Cid, go to conventions) but has also suffered from the Compilation curse like Cloud, Sephy, and Rufus...

[The Turk]

Oh yeah Reno got screwed in AC, but every character was awful in that film besides Tseng & Elena who weren't round long enough to do anything and Rude who amazingly is actually awesome in it. But in VII he's simply the man. You could probably go to the pub and have a few drinks and a laugh with him, but he'd slit your throat for a nickle if he was told to.... unless he's on holiday.

Vincent's a bit of a twat I'll give you that. But then he did have to see the woman he loved give birth to a mutant who would go on to become a mass murderer while he was powerless to do anything about it and become a mutant himself. Surely that and 20 odd years of isolation is enough to explain him being reclusive? The worst thing about him is that his story is never resolved and he really shouldn't have been a hidden character.

I'll give you Red, he's the one I dislike the most myself. Cid's and Yuffie's connection to the main plot is weak, but his is non-existent and his plot was pretty much dropped halfway through disc 1 and the only point he seemed to serve was being related to Bugenhagen Basil Exposition.

Yuffie is awesome. The only playable character in the game who's fully formed from the start. She doesn't go on an emotional journey to find out the truth about herself, doesn't win the respect back of her village and doesn't ride around on a freaking stuffed moggle. The Yuffie that starts the game is the same one that finishes it and I like that. Plus if you want a total prick then Yuffie outdoes Cid in that regard too, I love her reaction to Barret explaining how his home town was set ablaze, everyone he loved died and how his arm was ruined while he watched his best mate fall to his death:

"I don't feel sorry for him. It's his own fault for trusting Shinra."

Lol, what a cow. Good point though. Plus she's possibly the best fighter in the game and a super hot 16-year old ninja, what's not to like? Also at least she aint a terrorist like Barret.

As for Tifa I think I remember why you don't like her, but I don't think she's a plot hole at all- Cait Sith has that covered- but if you remind me of that I'm sure I'll find a way to have it logically make sense as I like Tifa and find her to be one of the few characters that is even remotely heroic.

[Wolf Kanno]

Yuffie annoys and infuriates me so I will leave it at that cause she's probably the only other FF character I hate with a passion besides Yuna from X. Let's just say after spending time in Zozo in VI I gained a terrible pet peeve of having crap stolen from me which was usually punishable by Ultima.

You know, Vincent has a tragic story but if you really look at it, he did everything he could to save her. She just decided to be a bitch and go ahead and screw him over. I don't really see why he blames himself for her choosing her career over him. He sorta has the Cloud problem of blaming himself for stuff that was really outside of his power to control and really there was little he could do once she decided to go ahead with the experiment. He tried and failed but I feel its obvious that Lucrecia is more to blame for this tragedy and that Vincent's guilt is mostly misplaced. Once again, he's much like Cloud who suffers the same problem.

Cait Sith never really bothered me, though I do feel he confirms Mel Brooks' idea from High Anxiety that the more obnoxious you are and the more you try to stand out, the more people will ignore you. Cause I'll be damned if I don't tend to forget about him a lot. Still, I don't really see him as a plot hole like Tifa.

Tifa's main problem is that she is pretty much privy to all the great "secrets" of the game and yet its never really stated why she keeps them a secret. She kinda half ass tries to tell Cloud the truth in the first disc but really she has no excuse to keep the truth a secret. She literally waits until the plot twist and that kinda bothers me. It just seemed like she was only privy to the info so we could have confirmation of Cloud not being who he said he was an so for me, I felt that whole plot twist was sorta forced to a degree. The game never gave a proper explanation for why Tifa withheld the truth, all we have is speculation and I really feel this is the kinda info that shouldn't be left to speculation.

Not to mention the whole "we're childhood friends/sweethearts" which is revealed in the Lifestream incident to be a lie as Tifa's only real memory of Cloud before he called her out to the water tower is that he was just another kid in the village that tagged along with her friends. So I find it rather annoying to see her acting like they were the closest of the close when they barely knew each other. Especially when she sees the truth and basically goes "Well I'll be damned" and then continues on like nothing has changed. Their whole relationship with each other is pretty messed up from a writing standpoint and I oddly feel that the whole scenario may have worked better had she not existed. A funny thing to say considering she was a late entry into the original plot anyway.

[The Turk]

I'll quote my old comment about Cait from a thread recently:

I don't like Cait Sith because I just don't think it makes any sense at all. So it's meant to be a talking cat on a robot moggle right? Why doesn't that seem strange to anybody? About Red XIII they are all like "OMG, IT SPEAKS!" but when face to face with Cait, nobody batters an eye lid. Also why did Reeves use a robot cat..... to control a robot moggle anyway? I'd have much preferred it if Cait Sith looked human but was actually an android.

Lastly how did he manage to get away using Cait without anybody else in Shinra noticing? I understand at first it was part of Shinra's plot to use Cait as a spy, but that plan should have finished at the Temple of the Ancients. How he was allowed to continue to use it without them knowing was remarkable. At one point Reeves manages to have two simultaneous conversations with Scarlet & Heidnegger and Cloud and co. And then after he is arrested by Shinra he STILL manages to control Cait! Crazy.

Now Tifa does explain why she held the secrets from Cloud in the life stream. She says she found him, or what he thought was him, at the Sector 7 train station and took him back to her bar (this being shortly after Zack's exit from the game). She goes on to say that Cloud kept talking about stuff he shouldn't have known (the Nibel incident- Tifa thinks he shouldn't have known that due to him not being there), but felt that if she told him the truth it would destroy him.

I can't remember the exact words she used, but given Cloud's extremely fragile nature I think it's fair to say her casually saying "What? You were never at Nibel, liar!" would have screwed him up. Indeed at the Whirlwind maze that is exactly what happens. Sephiroth tells Mr. Strife that he was never at Nibel, but Cloud shrugs this off. It's when Tifa reveals the truth that he really breaks down and willingly becomes a puppet to Jenova.

Several times during the game Tifa makes the choice to withhold the information to Cloud out of fear of what the truth will do to him. Play the Nibel flashback again and you can see signs of this "Did you go into my house Cloud?" which at first seems like her being embarrassed that Cloud enters becomes her quizzing him on the events on the 2nd playthrough and that is even truer with her final question: "Cloud how badly hurt was I?" after Sephiroth attacked her.

Also when she's not probing Cloud on questions during his retelling of that incident she is notably quiet ".........." which I reckon is her going ".......how does he know all this stuff? Who the hell is thus guy if it's not Cloud?" At Junon too she decided to change the subject when Cloud questions why him and Tifa never met up during the incident.

I think she was looking out for Cloud the whole game and indeed it was her who always believed the Cloud she was with was the same boy she knew all those years ago, even when he himself doubted it.


As for your second point, that is harder to explain. They were obviously next door neighbours and Cloud had a big crush on her for a while. They weren't that close, but obviously knew each other their whole lives and maybe during the well incident Tifa realised that Cloud liked her and perhaps she did too?

[Jaffer]

From what i understand she was doubting her own memories more then she was Cloud's, he knew how their conversations went, including the ones between just Tifa and Zack, he knew what happened that day, he knew how she was hurt, he knew what her bedroom looked like, he knew what the top piece of underwear was in her underwear drawer was that day, he also had the outfit, the sword, and Zack's walk and talk (according to Aeris). She had a photograph and blurry memories. I can't imagine Tifa would have been able to convince Cloud to see it her way if she tried.

[The Turk]

Here are lines of dialogue from that scene btw.

Tifa: "I've been hiding it for some time, afraid that if I told you... something terrible might happen. But, I'm not going to hide anything anymore."

(With a white flash, Sephiroth, the guards, and the past Cloud disappear, leaving only Cloud and Tifa.)

Tifa: You weren't here. Cloud did not come to Nibelheim five years
ago."


Also Tifa says that she really started to think about Cloud more after he left, so that sheds some light onto the 2nd question.

[Skyblade]

I posted a lot of thoughts about Dissidia Cloud over in the Dissidia "Out of Character" thread, but I'll quote those here:

Cloud is, thus far, the most out-of-character hero and story I've seen. In FFVII, he spent the majority of the game doing Sephiroth's bidding, without ever questioning why he was doing what he was doing. Sephiroth was omnipresent in VII, always leading Cloud onward. In Dissidia, Sephiroth is absent from much of Cloud's journey, and when he appears, he makes his usual speech about Cloud being his puppet. Yet, in Dissidia, Cloud is searching for a reason to go on fighting, which is a drastic shift from his original behaviour and motivation. In VII, there was only one point (maybe two) where Cloud wondered what he was fighting for, and it was a very small part of the game. Furthermore, he found something to fight for in the VII.

The end of FFVII marked the end of Cloud's story. Cloud's journey in VII was one of self discovery. Learning who he was, what his past was, why he originally embarked on his journey, and why he was more than just a Sephiroth clone. In Dissidia, however, he doesn't make that journey at all. He looks for one of his answers (and one that was very minor in FFVII), but never finds it. His journey gets no closure, no answer.

He doesn't even really fit in with his Compilation self. Because, in Advent Children, his question was never about why he fought, it was about whether he could or not. He doubted not his reasons, but his strength. The strength of his will to go on, and his body to fight the Geostigma. Compilation Cloud was all about finding the strength to overcome his trials, not finding the reason to undertake the trials at all, which is the focus of Dissidia Cloud.

And, yet, there is something fitting about Cloud's behaviour in Dissidia, because there is something crucial to Cloud that is missing from Dissidia, and that was his motivation. In FFVII, Cloud had two motivations that drove him beyond Sephiroth's manipulations: Tifa and Aeris. Each was a huge driving force in his life. Aeris's death gave a drive for revenge that continued on until the endgame with Sephiroth. And Tifa was the reason he left on his journey in the first place. Which played a more crucial role in motivating him is up for debate, as it depends on your actions in FFVII, and your interpretation of the events and your view on the love triangle. But it is obvious that both are huge motivators during Cloud's life.

In Dissidia, however, neither is there. Not just are they not in the game, but they aren't even hinted at (whereas Squall does hint that there is someone who promised to be waiting for him at one point, so even though Rinoa's not in-game, we can surmise that she's at least in the universe). So Cloud in Dissidia is the way he would be without them: drifting and empty, unsure of why he is on his journey.

Cloud's story in Dissidia is completely unfinished. Of all the stories I've seen in the game so far, his is the only one that completely lacks closure. Sephiroth does his standard "you'll never be rid of me" speech, and Cloud doesn't find his reason to keep going. Though he might have by Shade Impulse, as he mentions that if they win there, everything might go back the way it was before, or even better. He made that up, but he might want to believe it, and be fighting in the hopes that it would come true.

In AC Complete, at least, he mostly seemed depressed because of the Geostigma. He wanted to help Denzel, Marlene, and Tifa, but since he couldn't even save himself from the disease, he didn't see how he could save the others. He did dwell on Aeris and Zack some, and seemed to wonder a little if his Geostigma was his punishment for failing to save them, but, overall, his depression seemed focused on the disease, not on his past with Sephiroth, Aeris, and Zack.

He had a lot of different personalities in the original game, though. He started out as the self-centered jerk throughout Midgar. He gets on a huge revenge streak in Kalm as he reveals the events of Nibelheim, and rides that train through to the Temple of the Ancients, where he flips out and becomes a jibbering idiot for a little while. He goes on after Sephiroth until the lifestream event, where he spends time in his own little world pondering existential mysteries, until Tifa helps him find himself and he gets back together. Finally understanding who he is and what he wants, he finally becomes a leader and takes charge of the team. He forces them all to take some time to actually think about what they are fighting for, so that he knows that they are all in it for the right reasons, and he drives them home and finally conquers his last inner demon when he defeats the remnants of Sephiroth and Jenova inside himself (and, yes, he finally comes to grip with the Aeris/Zack stuff then too).

Really, he has so many different shifts to his persona in FFVII, another one isn't exactly surprising, especially since the depression makes sense with the Geostigma infection he suffers from.

[Wolf Kanno]

I guess my problem is that I cannot fathom her logic. Cloud has been acting weird since you met him and has stories about events he shouldn't know. Would you really follow someone this creepy? Would you allow your friends and comrades to believe in his stories when you know something might be up? I just can't fathom why you would do it. She could have at least mentioned something to the rest of the party.

Though its nice to remember she does try but I feel her excuse is kinda weak as I feel the ramifications of her decision (especially if it turned out Sephiroth wasn't lying and Cloud really was just a cluster of Jenova cells taking human form and ready to be used to murder them all) was too extreme to be laid on a gamble that conveniently worked itself out after a few other convenient accidents that led to an eventual recovery.

It bothers me to know end yet I also blame that her attempts at talking to him are spread very far apart in the story, a few even being miss-able if she's not with you (Like going to Zack's hometown). Basically every ten hours she kinda reminds you something is not right about the Nibelheim incident whereas Aerith is continually noticing inconsistencies with Cloud's personality and telling it to his face (which he does shrug off) through out the story. Almost going so far as to almost figuring out the truth at the date.

As for Tifa doubting her own memory, I can kinda understand since Cloud speaks with eerie accuracy but at the same time, I feel the difference (Zack not being there and Cloud being there, not to mention Cloud "plays" Zack's more upbeat attitude when he does his role despite being a rather quiet and stoic figure) is kinda extreme enough to make that not a factor. As I said before, there is so much wrong in her logic I feel it was irresponsible of her to withhold the truth in hopes that things "might get better".

As for Dissidia Cloud, he is really off from even his AC attitude (except for his wonderful upbeat dialogue ) but he does sorta get a goal he seeks but its not revealed in his Destiny Odyssey. I also disagree about Cloud focusing on his disease, I believe he rarely spoke of it except when people point it out. I felt Cloud dwelled far more on his regret and mistakes rather than worrying about his illness and dying. Yet I understand this may have been my way of interpreting it.

[Big D]

Cloud's post-FFVII attitude swing makes sense to me. During the game he was able to focus on some goal or purpose - staying alive to fight for the survival of the planet, and for his personal resolution. But once that was done... what did he really have? He had lost a lot during that battle, and also learned some god-awful truths about himself, like the way he had actually spent five years in captivity as a laboratory test subject, with his physiology, his personality and even his memories re-shaped by what was done to him.

Add to that his strong undercurrent of self-doubt and self-blame - which are evident even in the game - and you've got a recipe for brooding and withdrawal.

[Jaffer]

I guess my problem is that I cannot fathom her logic. Cloud has been acting weird since you met him and has stories about events he shouldn't know. Would you really follow someone this creepy? Would you allow your friends and comrades to believe in his stories when you know something might be up? I just can't fathom why you would do it. She could have at least mentioned something to the rest of the party.

Though its nice to remember she does try but I feel her excuse is kinda weak as I feel the ramifications of her decision (especially if it turned out Sephiroth wasn't lying and Cloud really was just a cluster of Jenova cells taking human form and ready to be used to murder them all) was too extreme to be laid on a gamble that conveniently worked itself out after a few other convenient accidents that led to an eventual recovery.

It bothers me to know end yet I also blame that her attempts at talking to him are spread very far apart in the story, a few even being miss-able if she's not with you (Like going to Zack's hometown). Basically every ten hours she kinda reminds you something is not right about the Nibelheim incident whereas Aerith is continually noticing inconsistencies with Cloud's personality and telling it to his face (which he does shrug off) through out the story. Almost going so far as to almost figuring out the truth at the date.

As for Tifa doubting her own memory, I can kinda understand since Cloud speaks with eerie accuracy but at the same time, I feel the difference (Zack not being there and Cloud being there, not to mention Cloud "plays" Zack's more upbeat attitude when he does his role despite being a rather quiet and stoic figure) is kinda extreme enough to make that not a factor. As I said before, there is so much wrong in her logic I feel it was irresponsible of her to withhold the truth in hopes that things "might get better".

Tifa has two options in which to believe in: Cloud has mind reading powers, used these on you and Zack, stole Zack's clothes, sword, personality and way of walking and talking somehow and is hiding it. And that still doesn't explain how Sephiroth, actually DOES know Cloud.

Or after being pushed down a flight of stairs an falling head first on a metal surface, after which you express how you hate Shinra, SOLDIER, Sephiroth and Cloud, you eventually subconciouslly replaced Cloud with a stranger instead of acknowledge him being buddybuddy with the person who annialated your village.

Now as it happens the reality is even more unbelievable then the first option but you get the point. The group had no reason to take her word over Cloud's, quite a few less actually, save for Aeris and Tifa actually does tell Aeris though the scene in which Cloud is given an option to eavesdrop was cut.

As for Dissidia Cloud, he is really off from even his AC attitude (except for his wonderful upbeat dialogue :roll2 ) but he does sorta get a goal he seeks but its not revealed in his Destiny Odyssey. I also disagree about Cloud focusing on his disease, I believe he rarely spoke of it except when people point it out. I felt Cloud dwelled far more on his regret and mistakes rather than worrying about his illness and dying. Yet I understand this may have been my way of interpreting it.

He... rarely spoke about either at all.

Rufus calls out Cloud, he slowly reacts with "But I..." then gets interrupped by Reno.

Reno and Rude asks if he cares about the kids at all, he keeps silent.

Tifa asks if he's got GeoStigma, he replies that there is no cure, Tifa says he's given up, C says he's not fit to help anyone, blablabla.

Then in the Forest of Death, the place of Aeris' murder, yeah Cloud starts focusing on that for a while.

But in all honesty neither of these are the cause. Cloud got a emo personality because that's what the fans wanted. In the Final Fantasy Advent children Reunion Files no correlation is made between Cloud's sombre personality and Geostigma or his regret. From what I can tell the producers found it quite believable that Cloud would feel a wave of regret about Aerith if he visited the Forgotten City, but they just retconned him. Having read Reunion Files now I'm pretty sure that when they remake FFVII Cloud'll be mopey for the entirety of the last two discs.