Assuming he never runs out of ammo.Originally Posted by Ultima Shadow
Assuming he never runs out of ammo.
But, but OHKO's...
I think US counted in refining timeAssuming he never runs out of ammo.)))
Level 99 Squall with Lionheart & proper junctions is all the destroying power you'll ever need everyone else is just supporting cast!
After meltdown, Irvine's AP Shot and Demolition Shot both do 9999, critical or not. 100 ammo x 9999 = almost exactly 1 million damage. Add the damage from the meltdown spell, and you'll have slightly over 1 million. Omega's HP = 1,161,000, which means about 161,000 remains after 100 x AP Shots. 17 x Demolition Shots after that and Omega's dead. 1 x Cactuar Needle (very easy to get lots of) refines into 30 AP ammos and, assuming it would be possible to fight Omega 4 times in a row, you'd only need to restock on the AP ammo inbetween the 4 fights.
Now, I'm not entierly sure Irvine would actually be able to pull exactly 4 off (most likely not, it was an overexaggeration), but just for the fun of it I'll try doing an average equation:
Now, using "Normal Shots" over Demolition is actually faster and works as well, so I'll use Normal + AP in the euation instead of AP + Demolition.
Irvine can pull off 2 Normal Shots in 1.5 seconds. Each Normal Shot will do around 4500 damage usually, and 9999 on critical. Assuming around 1/2 of the shots are criticals, let's say the average damage from normal shots are about 6700.
For AP Shots, each shot takes about 1 second. Slightly more, so let's say 1.2 seconds. Each Shot always does 9999.
Zell looping his two moves required for Armageddon Fists takes around 6 seconds each loop ( 6 seconds for 9999 x 2 ).
Let's say Irvine wastes all his Normal shots first. 100 x Normal Shots = 75 seconds. 100 x Normal = 670,000 damage. That's over half Omega's HP. Of course, you can't shot all 100 shots in one go, so it will take more than 75 seconds overall. But it's a starting point.
The required remaining damage = 491,000 = 50 x AP Ammo = around 60 seconds.
Total amount of seconds (if you could go on shoting without any pause inbetween) = 135 seconds.
Zell = an average of 3 seconds for each 9999 hit = 117 hits x 3 = 331 seconds.
Going by this alone, Irvine could kill Omega twice in 270 seconds and still have 61 seconds to spare.
Zell does, however, have the advantage of being able to keep punching all the way while Irvine must activate limit multiple times which takes some additional seconds. But with maxed speed and Auto-Haste, Irvine can pull off multiple limit breaks extremely fast and at a speed that should prevent Omega from getting to Terra Break. If Omega uses his random physical attacks a lot early on, that will buy Irvine lots of time as well since they only take like 2 seconds for Omega to pull off. Meteor is the only real time-waster Omega should have time to throw at Irvine.
...it MIGHT be possible for Irvine to kill Omega twice by the time Zell kills Omega once, if you have maxed luck or something and can make most of the Normal Shots hit for 9999. Also, I'm not sure... but Quick Shots might also speed things up for Irvine and maybe even scatter shots since those, too, trigger at the same speed as Normal Shots, which are the most effective ones if you can get frequent criticals in. Also, assuming you can refine the new ammo extremely fast. That Irvine can kill Omega faster than Zell once, at least, is a fact. And it's more entertaining to spam a button than pressing two 2-button combos 117 times. =P
Useless and utterly irrelevant information, I know, but it was fun doing the calculations. =D
Correction: AP Ammo does NOT deal 9999 damage each hit when you cast Meltdown - no! Not by far! Irvine deals ~4500 damage per Shot when using Quick Shot, and therefore he can only deal a maximum of 450.000 HP - that's less than Omega Weapon's half HP. When using Normal Shot, each shot takes about 3x times the amount of time, but deals, let's say 5000 damage. That's 500.000 HP gone. Some criticals (say you haven't got a high luck stat) can easily increase that up to 550.000 and beyond. So we've got a million. Assuming we get criticals often (example: 100 Ultima junctioned to Luck with Luck + 50%), we may just be able to defeat Omega Weapon.
So yes, Irvine can deal more damage in real time, but in "game-time", so each round, Zell can deal much more damage. And Irvine has a limit of doing so - unlike Zell.
Of course, you can take the liberty of maxing your Luck stat to 255 and make the critical hit chance 100%, (like the guy in the video i posted did), to get about 9000-9500 damage each Quick Shot. But I definitely won't spend weeks and weeks of bringing Siren to Lv 100, get 100 claws of curse (are they called this in english?), make them a dark matter and then a luck plus - no thanks.
I think the one thing everyone is missing here is that Zell requires the player to be slightly on the ball and in a society where we are all lazy gamers, Irvine wins cause it requires moving one finger and its a bit more leisurely. Besides, blowingup looks cooler than watching Zell posture as he does the same two boring hits over and over.
Seriously, I watched the Armageddon Fist video for a minute before I lost interest. Winning shouldn't count if it isn't glorious.
True beauty exists in things that last only for a moment.
Current Mood: And it's been a long December and there's reason to believe. Maybe this year will be better than the last. I can't remember all the times I tried to tell myself. To hold on to these moments as they pass...
Tell that to my Irvine, because he apparently doesn't understand that his AP Ammo is supposed to ever deal less than 9999 on a meltdowned foe. I tested it out just now on a Grendel and a T-Rexsaur. Every single hit did 9999, and no... each hit wasn't a critical. Since meltdown reduces defense to 0, it doesn't really matter if you attack Omega Weapon or a Bite Bug as long as it's melted down.
Secondly, 4500 is actually the critical damage for quick shots. Non-criticals do around 2000. But considering how fast it is, it might still be a good option for Irvine.
Even with average luck, the critical hit chances are very high for Irvine's limit break. I don't have any ridicolously high luck with him, yet at the very least 1/3 of his limit break hits are all criticals, and that's when I don't even have Luck + 50% junctioned. So 670,000 is more accurate than 500,000 for the Normal Shots.
Since we are assuming the best possibilities for Zell, making sure he gets what he needs to finish Omega in a single move, let's assume the best possibilities for Irvine as well.
To add it all up:
Zell is ridiculously strong IF you have the time and patience to wait an entire Armageddon Fist - an AF with 255 Luck, 255 Attack and ~.05 seconds interval can One-Hit (well... actually ~117-Hit... oh well One-Limit) Omega Weapon.
Irvine is very very strong, even without waiting minutes for one Armageddon Fist. Yet, he has a limit of 100 shots for each ammo.
Meltdown reduces the enemy's defense stat to 0, making each enemy equally vulnerable.
The chance for a critical hit is
(Luck + 1) / 256
Luck can only be leveled up by farming till you get 1 Dark Matter which can be converted into 1 Luck Plus.
The time you have in your limit break depends on your HP and on whether you're in Aura status or not.
Getting ~0.05 second-intervals in Armageddon Fist requires either extreme reflexes or simply a command-controller which lets you program commands. Using a command-controller, Armageddon Fist and Quick Shot are about equially hard, as you only have to constantly press one button at either limit break.
AP ammo is probably the best ammo for Irvine, as it is more than 5x faster than Pulse Ammo, and about 3x faster than Normal Ammo and can therefore deal some serious damage.
(Renzokuken + Lion Heart at 255 Strength can deals from 208.750 to 250.085 damage, but will only happen rarely. Deals about as much damage as one Quick Shot Limit Break without a limit, but happens, as already said, quite rarely.)
Agree on everything here, except Zell doesn't actually need luck since each hit deals 9999 or very close to 9999 even if they aren't criticals.
He got several kinds of ammo that are very effective though, each of which can be stocked up to 100. Irvine should only ever need to use, Quick, Normal and a few AP Shots to kill Omega, so the 100 limit isn't that much of a hindrance.
Exactly. And when I tried my 255 str, best weapon Irvine's AP shots on meltdowned foes, they all did 9999.
That's for normal attacks though, right? I got no proof, but my Irvine certainly gets more criticals during his limitbreaks than during his normal attacks.
Yeah, and no one sane does that so let's just say he gets the highest possible Luck trough simple junctioning. Still, considering how often I get criticals during Irvine's limitbreaks, I'd say he can get close to 50% criticals with the maximum possible luck trough junctioning.
Yup. And since any normal human being would need Zell's highest time limit to OHKO Omega, let's assume Irvine gets his highest time limits as well. Irvine can fire around 60 Quick Shots during the 12 second limit and 22 Normal Shots.
Nothing to add.
You mean Quick. AP is more powerful, but much slower than Normal Ammo. Now, I certainly wouldn't have minded an AP ammo that's 3 x as fast as Pulse though. xD
And yes, if it was POSSIBLE to get Lion Heart each time, Squall would most certainly beat everyone else speed-wise.
Well, if you guys are going to get this anal about who is better, I'm just gonna bring up the Selphie card again and trump you both. She deals the equivalent of 9901209672346234625756723452346 damage with her lovely best limit break and if you know what you're doing then you should be able to get it... somehow.
Who cares, though, really? You can walk through this game!
Bow before the mighty Javoo!
uh, you do know that selphie's The End... limit break deals exactly 0 damage - it inflicts Death status with 100% probability and ignores Status Defense. But Zombie-Status ALWAYS negates Death, even when it ignores Stat Def, so it'll never work on Zombies.Well, if you guys are going to get this anal about who is better, I'm just gonna bring up the Selphie card again and trump you both. She deals the equivalent of 9901209672346234625756723452346 damage with her lovely best limit break and if you know what you're doing then you should be able to get it... somehow.
Who cares, though, really? You can walk through this game!
@Ultima Shadow:
1. Look at the vid i posted. He's got 255 Luck, and STILL doesn't do 9999 damage each hit.
2./3. Oh darn, I'm SO stupid! I play the german version of the game - whenever I said AP, i actually meant quick^^
3. Is AP the ammo you can get by converting Tonberry Knifes? If so, it actually ignores the Def stat (Pulse Ammo does as well).
...anal? *cough*Well, if you guys are going to get this anal about who is better, I'm just gonna bring up the Selphie card again and trump you both. She deals the equivalent of 9901209672346234625756723452346 damage with her lovely best limit break and if you know what you're doing then you should be able to get it... somehow.
Who cares, though, really? You can walk through this game!
Well, Selphie can't get The End 100% of the time unless you cheat though PLUS she can't kill undead monsters with it. =P
Oh, but it's fun to discuss stuff like this! Even if it can end up a bit anal at times.
1) Oh, interesting. Yeah, Zell only does 9999 on criticals. That's also what I was thinking at first, but then I checked out another video where he did 9999 like... 90% of the time. I'll see if I can find that video and link to it later.
2) Well, that certainly clears up a whole lot of the confusion around AP aka "Armor Piercing" and "Quick Shot". xD
3) Yes, that's the one. Oh, yeah that makes sense considering its name. So... meltdown isn't needed for those in other words.
Last edited by Ultima Shadow; 09-07-2009 at 06:36 PM.
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screw it all.i'm just gonna use whoever happens to pop into my head
Catapultam habeo.Nisi pecuniam omnem mihi dabis,ad caput tuum saxum immane mittam.
You'll be fine.FFVIII was, for me, the easiest of all of the FF's to complete.
Bow before the mighty Javoo!
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