Tanks

[Rostum]

Paladin is great fun to level up, imo.

[oddler]

I agree; it easily became my favorite as soon as I started partying with it.

[Loony BoB]

Yeah, it's been fun so far! Haven't had a party with it yet, but hope to sometime either tonight or tomorrow.

[Miriel]

Eh, the avatars aren't really worth having until later anyway. But I don't really see what's wrong with having them all by level 1 - I did and it didn't stop me from enjoying the job (when I'm not trying to main heal). To say it just "cheapens" the experience is not a view that should be enforced on others as people enjoy playing a job class for different reasons.

Also, doing the prime battles on a different job is fun if you go in solo'ing or duo'ing.

Omg, stating opinion isn't enforcing anything. xD And there's nothing wrong with having all the avatars from lvl 1. I just think it's more fulfilling to go about collecting your avatars as a Summoner than as a BLM or PLD or some other random job. Which is why Fenrir & Diabolos bother me. They don't even give you the option to do lvl 20 battles with them. Lame.

[Rostum]

Omg, stating opinion isn't enforcing anything. xD And there's nothing wrong with having all the avatars from lvl 1. I just think it's more fulfilling to go about collecting your avatars as a Summoner than as a BLM or PLD or some other random job. Which is why Fenrir & Diabolos bother me. They don't even give you the option to do lvl 20 battles with them. Lame.

Omg, undies in a bunch.

Tanks are cool.

[Loony BoB]

Got to play tank for the first time yesterday, still getting the hang of it but it's pretty rare that I lost hate so that's good. We happened to party with a pair of summoners, too, so Danielle has had a taste of what she'll get to do. Also, a L75 SMN/WHM Danielle met said that he never has trouble getting L75 parties so Danielle seems happy enough!

[Miriel]

Omg, undies in a bunch.

OMG, I KNOW RIGHT?!

I really don't understand it when people are so strict about certain things in the game. Just do whatever you want, and get the most fun out of the game instead about being concerned with being all uber and having all the crazy gear or summons, or the exact job/subjob combo.

Seriously BoB, don't worry about whether parties will want you or not. I never had a problem getting parties as a WHM, never had a single person whine that they wanted a RDM or a SCH instead, never had anyone mention the fact that my summoner didn't have Diabolos or that my mage didn't have astral rings.

I think when people are all, "BEWARE!! YOU WILL NOT GET PARTIES IF YOU DO NOT CONFORM!" are overstating things. Especially cause you and Smitten play together, it makes things a ton easier cause you'll always have a partner!

[Levian]

I really don't understand it when people are so strict about certain things in the game. Just do whatever you want, and get the most fun out of the game instead about being concerned with being all uber and having all the crazy gear or summons, or the exact job/subjob combo.

Hear, hear!

Felt like a robot trying to play my job in the same way that every other player with that job had done before me, it's pretty boring being told every little thing you have to do. And I'm especially irked when someone "sighs dejectedly" when I'm not entirely there.

Got my SMN up to 10 today, and skillups to 20. :] definitely gonna solo the other avatars when I reach 20. Sounds like fun.

[Ouch!]

I think its unfair to preach that sort of approach to Final Fantasy XI, Miriel. In my experience, saying such an attitude is not only acceptable but effective is rather misleading. Nobody expects someone to have the best gear on their first time to 75, and standards are certainly lower than ever due to the implementation of Level Sync. People can (and have) reached 75 without ever stepping foot outside of Qufim.

I don't understand the attitude of "don't worry whether or not parties will want you!" This seems counter intuitive in game that's very much dependent on your ability to cooperate with others. On some level, this means conforming to certain standards.

As I've mentioned earlier, experimentation is to be encouraged when you're sure everyone involved is alright with it. More often than not, this means when you're soloing or duoing unless you've got a large group of people who don't care about efficacy (not something I encounter often in FFXI).

Certain jobs get more leeway than others. They all fall into one of three categories: main healers, support jobs, and tanks. You can be poorly geared and in general sub-optimal and get away with it simply on the basis that for a party to function, such jobs are absolutely necessary.

That said, I think encouraging disregard for standards of efficacy is as destructive to a new player's experience in FFXI as it is helpful. I don't know about you, but I don't see many people in FFXI as being forgiving of truly sub-par gear or awkward support job selections as you seem to suggest. In fact, more often than not, I expect them to be complete and utter jerks about it. In my experience, FFXI has a very elitist community. Expecting otherwise is silly.

[Mirage]

Yeah, do what you want when you're with friends or soloing, no one cares :p. A party is different because you're playing with other people who teamed up with you to level up their jobs. When I start searching for an exp party, the main reason i do this is to get exp at a fast rate. Crazy job/sub combinations have been tested dozens of times before, and there's no need for each new player to find out if a hexagon-shaped wheel works as well as a round one. If you really do want to test out such a wheel though, you shouldn't do it in a situation that makes 5 other players reach their objectives 20% slower.


I'm not saying everyone should have the same subjob and the absolutely best gear available at all times. All I'm saying is that people should use sensible gear, and subjobs that actually make the class you're playing better at what it's meant to do. Far from all of them do.

[Del Murder]

No. You should play the way you want. If people don't like it they won't play with you. Simple as that. The elitist attitude of this game is even more encouraged by people who just accept it as given. There will always be plenty of people out there with the generic job combinations for you to play with. It's entirely up to everyone who they play with and how they play. No one should play a way they don't want to just because it's 'accepted'. If you don't like it and would rather play the standard efficient way you are free to do so with someone else.

We're not talking about crazy stuff like WHM/WAR (though if you want to do that, go for it), ouchie, we're talking (or at least I am) about the people who nitpick everything to the last detail to make you think you need certain things at certain times to be of any use. Or that WHM doesn't get parties. Or that SMN needs all the avatars at level 1. Those just aren't true. And the people who get so pissed because another person lotted their item, or messed up in a mission. Like, losing friends over it pissed. People need to mellow out more.

[Darkwolf090]

So this is awesome, I have seen alot of WARs take up the tank arms again at 75... WAR/DNC can tank very well to be honest I was surprised but ya it can go figure?

[Rostum]

WAR/DNC is alright in Campaign, but other than that it isn't too efficient outside of solo'ing.

[Loony BoB]

It's weird how you guys keep mentioning elitists vs. more laid back people - the most elitist person I've come across so far is Ouch xDD *runs* Really, almost everyone I've met has been really insanely nice. Hell, Danielle jokingly said "money for the poor" the other day when someone passed by - and they gave her 20k. Which is neat, because she still owes me 26k

I party somewhat regularly with Danielle, Lev, Shawtiie, Zyphus, Weiner (not EoFFer) and whoever else we come across at the time that is interested (Darkrein/Windowpane or just random people who are seeking) and nobody's really cared much about how we do it so long as we're all having fun. I'm almost more there to make friends than I am to do well in the game - and the friends I'm making are neat.

I think we'll always play the game how we want to because it's pointless to do otherwise. If people express disappointment that I haven't yet got something, for example the Kazahm pass or whatever, then I get motivated to get it. If people outright tell me that I have to do something, I'm less inclined to do it because it becomes work rather than play. I only work if I'm getting paid I guess it often shows that people want to play the game with you when, if they want you to get something, they help you get it. That's awesome.

[Ouch!]

It's weird how you guys keep mentioning elitists vs. more laid back people - the most elitist person I've come across so far is Ouch xDD *runs*

I don't try to hide my elitism. I'm a whore for great gear, and I enjoy being a smurfing awesome RDM. That said, you'd be surprised how mild my elitism is compared to a large portion of the other people involved in endgame.

The reason I don't encourage experimentation widely is mainly for one reason: it hampers your ability to get things done in the game. Naturally having better gear or a more efficient sub will make things easier, but that's not what I mean. Let me try and use an example which doesn't include an "extreme" deviation like WHM/WAR.

I know someone who likes to role play in FFXI. This governed everything she did, including what jobs she would play as. She limited herself to jobs which used magic. This meant that while she would not allow herself to level WAR, she decided to level PLD anyway. She made it to about level 60 using PLD/RDM--a combination that proves very effective in certain circumstances, but is largely more trouble than it's worth in exp. parties--by trioing with two of her friends. PLD/RDM is very popular in a lot of situations. I helped a friend experiment with it in an exp. party ages ago before it had become not only acceptable but perhaps even encouraged to have the support job readily available. The results of our experimentation, by the way, were that while it can certainly work, the lack of defender and provoke make it more trouble than its worth for exping.

First of all, trioing to 60 on PLD is a laborious task. It takes effin' forever, but she was happy to do it because she was doing it with two of her friends. I encourage this sort of experimentation. She wasn't wasting anyone's time except her own and those who consented to have their time wasted (and I imagine it did waste an awful lot of time compared to regular exp. parties on PLD/WAR).

However, after she got to about level 60, it became unbearably slow for one of her compatriots, so he stopped going. She and the other person were not able to make progress as a duo, so she attempted to find parties on her PLD/RDM. She would get invites to parties and they would ask her to change her support job to /WAR. She would explain she didn't have the job, and more often than not, people would just drop her from the party.

She would get very upset by this, and she stopped talking to me after I asked her, "What did you expect?"

When I preach a certain level of conformity, I preach it on the basis that it's the only way to really get things done in the game. If you're willing to take the long way around and make things harder on yourself if you find experimenting more fun, I wish you good will and good luck. I just think that people should be aware of the potential consequences of deviating from the norm. If you're willing to accept those consequences and not bitch about it, fine. Unfortunately, in most cases I've encountered, people who want to deviate from the norm and experiment also like to bitch that people aren't willing to play with them. As I've stated before: I don't mind if you waste your time being inefficient, but don't waste mine in the process.

It just seems awfully odd to try and deviate from what is accepted by the community in a game in which you're largely dependent on the community to get much of anything done. FFXI's game design, one which doesn't merely encourage cooperation in large numbers, but demands it seems ill-suited to any significant experimentation.